Author Topic: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!  (Read 10502 times)

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Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2015, 10:47:30 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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contrary to the posts that have dominated this thread, i like this trade and I'd be pretty happy ending up with either of the 3 you mentioned (gallo/reke/derozan). I think Tyreke slots well at either SG/SF and is an upgrade over Turner. I also don't want the C's to offer Sully an extension.

Well I just don't want to offer them Young. I don't see why people are so intent on overpaying for players that can't shoot. I would like to keep Young or at least Sully in the possibility that they can fetch us a nice return. Yes, rentals are usually low valued, but if Sully does have a dominant performance like 17/9, with good eFG/ and FG %, we can either sign and trade or trade him to a player that can retain him with traded bird rights.

Tyreke isn't worth anything more than a first round pick, and a second rounder which the Pelicans the year before were intent on trading him for.

I really don't like Tyreke, and would rather take on DeRozan or Gallo. Gallo addresses 3 pt shooting with size at 3, and 4. Whereas DeRozan averaged around 20 PPG in the playoffs.

Sullinger is not a fit - and he is going to cost big bucks as a free agent.

I would rather throw in 2 picks and get Derozan. Assuming he isn't available, I like the Tyreke idea,

Consider Tyreke an upgrade over Turner, pure and simple. Young is a throw in to make the salaries work. We have other guys who can shoot it, Tyreke would be more of a facilitator to team with Smart in a big backcourt or a point-forward type to go with 2 guards in a small ball lineup.

Consider it a way to upgrade talent level for the next 2 years and still protect major cap space in 2017.  Pelicans dont have very many guaranteed contracts. They could use the depth and they could also use Sullinger next to Davis whenever Asik goes to the bench.

Ummm... I don't really care if hes an upgrade over Turner... I hope any player we're receiving from a packaged trade would be better than some of the players shipped out.. I don't get people's infatuation with Tyreke.

I like him, because hes a good, but nowhere near elite player. But hes a offensive specialist that desperately needs a floor spacer. The last thing we need is a SF that cannot shoot nor play defense. Trying to put him next to Smart, and Bradley just sounds like a disaster.

Fair points, but some thought:

1) Young at this point looks like a clear bust, and I have zero interest in wasting a roster space on him.  I want him gone, and I'd rather see him used in a trade rather than waive him for nothing.

2) Sully doesn't have much value and probably never will.  Even if he gets in shape this year and improves on his weaknesses (conditioning, shot selection, defense) everybody is going to point at the fact that it's a contact year...and worry that once he has a long term deal, he'll let himself slip again. I doubt we'll get a return on Sully any better than Tyreke.

3) Gallo is a one dimensional player - all he does is score, and he does that at a pretty inefficient rate.  He's nor really any better defensively than Tyreke, he's older, he's less versatile, and he's horribly injury prone.  Way too big a risk when compared with the (relatively modest) upside.

4) Derozan I agree with you, and he'd be my preference.  But I think this thread question is asked based on the assumption that Derozan is not available.

5) Tyreke has been a 16 point - 20 point scorer his entire career, he can handle the ball, he can pass, he can rebound, he can play three positions, and he can create offense.  We desperately need somebody who can do those things. 

Turner offers similar versatility true, but but he's a career 10/5/3 guy, while Tyreke is a career 17/5/5 guy.  Tyreke gets to the line at almost double the rate of Turner, and he'd instantly become a top 2 scoring option for us.  Tyreke is not a small upgrade over Turner, he's a major upgrade.

6) I don't see why Evans couldn't play alongside Bradley and/or Smart.  Bradley has shot 40%,  39% and 36% from 3PT in three of his past four seasons.  Smart shot 33% from three last season despite it being his rookie year, and despite a crazy high number of attempts.  Both guys are more than capable of hitting the open three, and I felt both guys fared perfectly fine playing alongside Turner and Crowder (neither of whom are any better from three than Tyreke is). 

 

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 11:41:03 PM »

Offline jayk009

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If we could incorporate AB into this deal rather then Sullinger I would be all for this deal.

Even though Tyreke is a flawed player, his talent is undeniable.

Acquire the talent first and then let Brad Stevens figure it out.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2015, 11:51:15 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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If we could incorporate AB into this deal rather then Sullinger I would be all for this deal.

Even though Tyreke is a flawed player, his talent is undeniable.

Acquire the talent first and then let Brad Stevens figure it out.

I'd much rather send Sully than Bradley, honestly.

Sully expires after this year, and is expected to look for a max (or near max) deal.  It's unlikely that Danny would offer him that.

So if you trade Bradley for Tyreke, then Sully walks at the end of this season...you've just lost two of your more talented young players.

I consider this season to be basically a 'rental' of Sully, so I figure if we're going to trade anybody it may as well be him. 

Plus I feel our logjam up front is much worse than our logjam in the back-court. 

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2015, 08:05:49 AM »

Offline jay

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I agree with the logjam up front:

Amir
Lee
Sully
Olynyk
Zeller
Mickey
Jerebko
-----------
Jones
Holmes

Not to mention Crowder who can play the 4.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2015, 08:11:24 AM »

Offline MarcusSmaht36

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Whoa! Have any of you seen the pictures of Sully? He has dropped a ton of weight and looks primed to have an outstanding year.

I would be willing to trade Turner for Evans and possibly some filler, but Sully would be overpaying by a lot!

Sully looks NOW great ... but i don`t think he can be trusted to maintain this.


It's also very convenient that Sully decided to try to get in shape when he can finally earn a new contract next year - I don't think his weight loss is something that's sustainable for him. 

As far as the proposed Tyreke deal, I would much rather try that for Derozan first.  I've never been a huge fan of Tyreke's game.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2015, 08:45:31 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2015, 08:51:40 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Sully still has a very poor athletic base, still is slow, still can't jump even with the weight loss.   I doubt he becomes a lockdown defender.   He might shoot slightly better, might stay in front of him man better, but I think he lacks lateral speed which will lead to fouls.   We know he can board and score down low.   I wish he would concentrate on what he is good at, instead of what he is not.

I think this trade is a poor one.   Tyreke has problems, it would solve some of our roster issues.   But where would he get minutes if he was sober?

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2015, 09:12:45 AM »

Offline Bdiddy

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I love the way many will say Sully sucks on the one hand and on the other they don't want the C's to keep him because he will cost "big bucks". Well, if everyone evaluated him as "sucks" why would he deserve big bucks? I just don't get the hatred for Sully. With starters minutes he is at least a 15 and 8 guy and that is pretty darn good. As I recall, Barkley was kind of fat and he did alright. In conclusion, I would never trade Sully for Evans straight up.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2015, 02:44:35 PM »

Offline hodgy03038

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I love the way many will say Sully sucks on the one hand and on the other they don't want the C's to keep him because he will cost "big bucks". Well, if everyone evaluated him as "sucks" why would he deserve big bucks? I just don't get the hatred for Sully. With starters minutes he is at least a 15 and 8 guy and that is pretty darn good. As I recall, Barkley was kind of fat and he did alright. In conclusion, I would never trade Sully for Evans straight up.

I totally agree about Sully. There is NO WAY I would include Sully in your offer. For Turner + Young I would probably do it but Sully alone is worth more than Evans. And I agree about Barkley and how about Zack Randolph same height and same weight!!

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2015, 08:34:30 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Sully still has a very poor athletic base, still is slow, still can't jump even with the weight loss.   I doubt he becomes a lockdown defender.   He might shoot slightly better, might stay in front of him man better, but I think he lacks lateral speed which will lead to fouls.   We know he can board and score down low.   I wish he would concentrate on what he is good at, instead of what he is not.

I think this trade is a poor one.   Tyreke has problems, it would solve some of our roster issues.   But where would he get minutes if he was sober?

I would put him at the starting SF spot.  Tyreke is a major upgrade over Crowder, Jerebko or Turner and would be the only legitimate starting calibre guy we have who can play the SF spot.

I love the way many will say Sully sucks on the one hand and on the other they don't want the C's to keep him because he will cost "big bucks". Well, if everyone evaluated him as "sucks" why would he deserve big bucks? I just don't get the hatred for Sully. With starters minutes he is at least a 15 and 8 guy and that is pretty darn good. As I recall, Barkley was kind of fat and he did alright. In conclusion, I would never trade Sully for Evans straight up.

Please refer to Chandler Parsons and Omer Asik as two (of the many) borderline starters who have been given All-Star caliber contracts in recent times.

NBA teams are starved for talent these days, especially big man talent.  The tendancy for teams to dramatically overpay for anybody over 6'8" with skills has been insane the past few years, and it's only gotten worse with the upcoming cap increase.

Just about every team in the NBA will have cap space to offer a max deal after this season, and once all the top name players are gone it isn't hard to imagine at least a handful of teams being willing to throw stupid money at players who don't deserve it, out of pure desperation. It happens all the time. 

If some team offers Sully much more than about $10M/year then I very seriously doubt Danny will match it.

Also cherry picking his scoring (15) and rebounding (8) is cute.  How about checking his numbers over the past two years for FG% (42.7% and 43.9%), three point percentage (26.9% and 28.3%), three point attempts per 36 (3.7 and 4.2) and Free Throw Rate (22.6% and 18.2%). 

Oh and in his third season Barkley averaged 23 points, 14.6 rebounds, 4.9 assists, 1.8 steals and 1.5 blocks while shooting 59.4% from the field and having a free throw rate of 66%.

Lets not make that comparison, hey?

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2015, 08:40:44 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I love the way many will say Sully sucks on the one hand and on the other they don't want the C's to keep him because he will cost "big bucks". Well, if everyone evaluated him as "sucks" why would he deserve big bucks? I just don't get the hatred for Sully. With starters minutes he is at least a 15 and 8 guy and that is pretty darn good. As I recall, Barkley was kind of fat and he did alright. In conclusion, I would never trade Sully for Evans straight up.

I totally agree about Sully. There is NO WAY I would include Sully in your offer. For Turner + Young I would probably do it but Sully alone is worth more than Evans. And I agree about Barkley and how about Zack Randolph same height and same weight!!

Zach Randolph is 6'9" / 253 pounds and was putting up 20/10 and 49% shooting (on 38 MPG) by his third season. Hardly comparable to Sully who is listed at 6'9" / 280 pounds (but has been documented to have hit as much as 300 pounds) and who would probably end up in an ER if he averaged 38 MPG.

People also tend to not mention that Randolph (like Boozer and most under undersized guys who became quasi-stars) has a ridiculous wingspan of around 7'4" - 7'5" which ultimately allows him to play a lot bigger than he actually is.

So you have:

1) A big a 6'9" / 250 lbs guy who is relatively fit, has a 7'4" wingspan, and takes the majority of his shots within 3 feet (where he shot 59% in his third year)

2) A a 6'9" / 290 lbs guy who is extremely unfit, has a 7'1" wingspan, and takes about a quarter of his field goal attempts from three (where he shots under 30% in his third year). 

Not entirely comparable.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 08:51:29 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2015, 08:45:27 PM »

Offline hodgy03038

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I love the way many will say Sully sucks on the one hand and on the other they don't want the C's to keep him because he will cost "big bucks". Well, if everyone evaluated him as "sucks" why would he deserve big bucks? I just don't get the hatred for Sully. With starters minutes he is at least a 15 and 8 guy and that is pretty darn good. As I recall, Barkley was kind of fat and he did alright. In conclusion, I would never trade Sully for Evans straight up.



I totally agree about Sully. There is NO WAY I would include Sully in your offer. For Turner + Young I would probably do it but Sully alone is worth more than Evans. And I agree about Barkley and how about Zack Randolph same height and same weight!!

Zach Randolph is 6'9" / 253 pounds and was putting up 20/10 and 49% shooting (on 38 MPG) by his third season. Hardly conparable to Sully who has been known to have hit as much as 300 pounds, and who can't even manage 38 MPG without ending up in an ER.


I think you are exaggerating some huh? According to the player profiles they are the exact same height and weight. And what source are you using that he was as much as 300 pounds. Your other point about 38 mpg - how many Celtics of any size average 38 mpg?


Zach Randolph | Center/Forward
Team:    Memphis Grizzlies

Age / DOB:     (34) / 7/16/1981
Ht / Wt:     6'9' / 260
College:    Michigan State


Jared Sullinger | Center/Forward
Team:    Boston Celtics

Age / DOB:     (23) / 3/4/1992
Ht / Wt:     6'9' / 260
College:    Ohio State





Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2015, 08:48:57 PM »

Offline perks-a-beast

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I guarentee if Tyreke was in a celtics uniform no one would dream of getting that much in return for him in a trade. We need to stop under valuing out players..and over vauing our players. We need to start properly valuing our players.

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2015, 08:53:43 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I love the way many will say Sully sucks on the one hand and on the other they don't want the C's to keep him because he will cost "big bucks". Well, if everyone evaluated him as "sucks" why would he deserve big bucks? I just don't get the hatred for Sully. With starters minutes he is at least a 15 and 8 guy and that is pretty darn good. As I recall, Barkley was kind of fat and he did alright. In conclusion, I would never trade Sully for Evans straight up.



I totally agree about Sully. There is NO WAY I would include Sully in your offer. For Turner + Young I would probably do it but Sully alone is worth more than Evans. And I agree about Barkley and how about Zack Randolph same height and same weight!!

Zach Randolph is 6'9" / 253 pounds and was putting up 20/10 and 49% shooting (on 38 MPG) by his third season. Hardly conparable to Sully who has been known to have hit as much as 300 pounds, and who can't even manage 38 MPG without ending up in an ER.


I think you are exaggerating some huh? According to the player profiles they are the exact same height and weight. And what source are you using that he was as much as 300 pounds. Your other point about 38 mpg - how many Celtics of any size average 38 mpg?


Zach Randolph | Center/Forward
Team:    Memphis Grizzlies

Age / DOB:     (34) / 7/16/1981
Ht / Wt:     6'9' / 260
College:    Michigan State


Jared Sullinger | Center/Forward
Team:    Boston Celtics

Age / DOB:     (23) / 3/4/1992
Ht / Wt:     6'9' / 260
College:    Ohio State

Basketball-reference lists Sully at 280 pounds, and Draft-Express has him weighed in at 280 pounds on multiple occasions.

There was a quote from Sully him self one year admitting he was at 295 pounds.  Danny Ainge commented that Sully was at 280 points, and was given a goal to come in to the following training camp at 265 points (from memory that was the number) - but when Sully came in, he had instead ballooned out to 300 pounds.  Sully denied this and said he never reached 300, and was actually 295.  He then sneakily added something like 'well maybe I did hit 300 once or twice'.

Also the Sully defenders continue to ignore the fact that as much as weight is a major criticism, it's not his only one.  His efficiency as a scorer is absolutely horrendous. He takes too many threes (which he shoots at a horrible percentage) and he's quite possible the worst free throw rate of anybody on our roster (a roster that is, mind you, famous for having very few guys who get to the line).

So Sully has:
1) Major conditioning issues
2) Horrible offensive efficiency (the only way he scores masses of points, is via masses of FGA)
3) Complete inability to defend perimeter players
4) Complete inability as a rim protector
5) Poor intangibles (questionable work ethic, motor and desire to improve)

On the plus side he offers:
1) Good rebounding (yes it's good, not outstanding)
2) Excellent passing for a big
3) A decent post/inside game (that barely ever gets used)
4) A decent midrange jumper
5) Good basketball IQ

It's pretty hard to argue that the 'pros' outweigh the 'cons'.  They even out at best.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 09:16:32 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Idea: Sullinger, Turner, Young for Tyreke!
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2015, 09:01:43 PM »

Offline hodgy03038

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Okay so I have found 4 separate profiles on Sullinger:

ESPN/NBA
ROTOWORLD.com
Celtics.com
NBA.com

all list him at 260
I did see your reference also at 280.

Who knows if and when they change these profiles but I have 4 to your one so I don't know which is correct AND I am still waiting for a concrete source that says he was 300 pounds.