Author Topic: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners  (Read 15124 times)

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Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2015, 12:43:15 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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A step forward towards what, though? Another 40ish win season and a first round out?

Yeah.

Not bad for the 5th youngest team in the league, huh?
It's kind of crappy, IMO. Another retread season is inevitable but I don't have to be happy about it.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2015, 12:50:59 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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A step forward towards what, though? Another 40ish win season and a first round out?

Yeah.

Not bad for the 5th youngest team in the league, huh?


The team's age is often touted as if it necessarily means the team has a lot of room to improve with the personnel currently on the roster.

How many of these young players still have potential for improvement, though, and how high are their ceilings?

Thomas -- Extremely productive bench scorer, extremely limited defensively, is what he is, history suggests he won't age well, might only be good for another 3 or 4 years

Bradley -- Below average starter, is what he is

Turner -- Inefficient, poor defender, niche role, is what he is

Sullinger -- Has starter potential, limited athleticism, inconsistent scoring outside the paint, weight issues

Olynyk -- Productive reserve, defense shaky, capped out physically but may improve mentally, small chance at being a productive offensive starter in the right situation

Zeller -- productive backup, below average starter, is what he is

Crowder -- Useful hustle guy, must improve shooting to become starting caliber, fully developed physically

Smart - Plenty of room to grow to improve his shooting, ball-handling, and inside game, could be an above average starter, with a chance at becoming a Kyle Lowry level borderline star

Young - May or may not be an NBA rotation player; has a long way to go physically, mentally, and skills-wise outside of his shooting; could one day be a bench shooter

Hunter - Unclear if he's an NBA player; fairly skilled and has defensive potential

Mickey - Looks promising as a third big / hustle, blocks, and rebounds guy, but totally unproven.

Rozier - Physically gifted but lacking in a clear role or position at the next level, must develop body and skills despite already being 21 years old, faces major roadblocks to playing time.
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Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2015, 01:04:02 PM »

Offline LilRip

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Winners:
1. Spurs (won enough to probably go 1-5, that team is scary)
2. Bucks
3. Clippers
4. Rockets
5. Cleveland

Losers:
1. Portland
2. Lakers
3. Dallas
4. Charlotte (the god awfulness of their offseason is way undersold)
5. Kings
I agree with them all except Kings at 5th worst...I think they did good in the draft, signing Rondo, Butler, Bellinelli, and not trading Cousins or Gay

They made a terrible trade to free up the cap space to sign a bad PG(Rondo) and a host of average players. Not to mention the hilarious nature of the front office dysfunction.

I don't think you can rate them negatively for their front office since that's technically not part of the offseason.

Ok, so I know what you're saying, but this statement as written is absurd. One of the team's offseason priorities should be figuring out the disaster that is their front office (although it appears it's coming from ownership down, so that may not be possible).

Sorry, I don't see it. Or maybe it's just me who considers "coaching and player changes" as part of the "offseason" while front office or ownership matters are something deeper and bigger than a regular offseason matter. I mean, if we're getting into the corporate side of things, should we then consider scout hiring or analytics team hirings as well? How about marketing dept. changes or finance dept. changes?

I'm not disagreeing that the front office needs to fix itself. It does. But in terms of what the franchise was able to do in this offseason, I thought the Kings did decent in drafting WCS and picking up Rondo on a low-risk contract.

- LilRip

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2015, 01:10:16 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Considering a front office determines a franchise's offseason, having unnecessary upheaval within that front office is fair game for offseason critique.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2015, 01:19:06 PM »

Offline Who

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I don't think Sacramento had a good off-season. I wasn't happy with a number of their decisions.

(1) drafting WCS over Mudiay
(2) keeping George Karl instead of firing him
(3) Putting two centers (WCS, Koufos) next to Cousins instead of PFs
(4) Dumping Stauskas for cap space without having a FA already lined up [agreed to a deal].

Not wild about the Rondo addition but the FA marketplace was pretty limited by that point once they missed out on Monta Ellis.

I do think there are some good signs from Vlade Divac. How he thinks about things. That are encouraging (that I talked about in my previous post). I think there will be some early pains / growing pains here but long term Divac might be a guy who can help get that team back on track after a long time of bad front office decisions from previous personnel.

I also like Vlade trying to bring back guys like Peja Stojakovic. Guys who played key roles in the team's history. I like ex-players being involved with the team. In the front office and elsewhere within the organization. More basketball knowledge within an organization.

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2015, 01:22:35 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I agree with you, but I do think there are limits to that. I am not, for example, ready to embrace Antoine Walker as the new CFO for the Celtics.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2015, 01:29:04 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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#1 = Portland

Lost LaMarcus Aldridge. Lost Nic Batum. Lost Robin Lopez. Lost Wes Matthews.

Went from a 50+ win team that wasn't far from title contention to a bottom 5 team.

You can't really blame the Blazers for not being able to retain LMA, who clearly wanted to be on a better team to contend. The Blazers didn't have the pieces and the ability to bring in a third Allstar next to Lillard and LMA.
Blame doesn't matter. They are still losers based on the team they are left with.

I don't agree that Sacto was a winner.

The Spurs are probably a winner cuz they got LMA.

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2015, 01:34:37 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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A step forward towards what, though? Another 40ish win season and a first round out?

Yeah.

Not bad for the 5th youngest team in the league, huh?


The team's age is often touted as if it necessarily means the team has a lot of room to improve with the personnel currently on the roster.

How many of these young players still have potential for improvement, though, and how high are their ceilings?

Thomas -- Extremely productive bench scorer, extremely limited defensively, is what he is, history suggests he won't age well, might only be good for another 3 or 4 years

Bradley -- Below average starter, is what he is

Turner -- Inefficient, poor defender, niche role, is what he is

Sullinger -- Has starter potential, limited athleticism, inconsistent scoring outside the paint, weight issues

Olynyk -- Productive reserve, defense shaky, capped out physically but may improve mentally, small chance at being a productive offensive starter in the right situation

Zeller -- productive backup, below average starter, is what he is

Crowder -- Useful hustle guy, must improve shooting to become starting caliber, fully developed physically

Smart - Plenty of room to grow to improve his shooting, ball-handling, and inside game, could be an above average starter, with a chance at becoming a Kyle Lowry level borderline star

Young - May or may not be an NBA rotation player; has a long way to go physically, mentally, and skills-wise outside of his shooting; could one day be a bench shooter

Hunter - Unclear if he's an NBA player; fairly skilled and has defensive potential

Mickey - Looks promising as a third big / hustle, blocks, and rebounds guy, but totally unproven.

Rozier - Physically gifted but lacking in a clear role or position at the next level, must develop body and skills despite already being 21 years old, faces major roadblocks to playing time.

They may not be superstars, but that doesn't mean they can't have room to improve, especially Bradley.

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2015, 01:39:09 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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They may not be superstars, but that doesn't mean they can't have room to improve, especially Bradley.

The fact that they are not superstars does not mean they can't improve, you are absolutely correct.

I disagree about Bradley having room to improve, though.  I think he's developed a lot since his rookie season, but we've seen what he can do with a larger role and I think aside from maybe improving his perimeter shooting consistency, he is what he is.  A smaller Courtney Lee with a better pull-up mi-range jumper.

My point is that while the team is young, it's not as if we could keep this group of young guys and expect the team to get a whole lot better over time.  Youth only means something insofar as it relates to (1) having many productive years left barring major injury and (2) having the potential to improve.

I think the benefits of the Celts' youth is mostly in category (1) rather than (2), though some of these guys, like Sullinger (due to weight / health), Isaiah Thomas (due to his height), and Young (due to lack of game) might be out of the league five years from now.
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Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2015, 02:45:09 PM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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I do think there are some good signs from Vlade Divac. How he thinks about things. That are encouraging (that I talked about in my previous post). I think there will be some early pains / growing pains here but long term Divac might be a guy who can help get that team back on track after a long time of bad front office decisions from previous personnel.

I also like Vlade trying to bring back guys like Peja Stojakovic. Guys who played key roles in the team's history. I like ex-players being involved with the team. In the front office and elsewhere within the organization. More basketball knowledge within an organization.

You just described, word for word, the Isiah Thomas plan in NY with his "Basketball PhD" method of stocking the FO.

There's nothing wrong with seeing a league trending towards analytics and deciding to use those while investing in traditional scouting to better ascertain the why piece. The Spurs, IMO, are better than anybody at that(the number of things that's true about is frighteningly long).

Vlade isn't doing that. He's eschewing it completely, burning bridges as he goes and openly admitting he doesn't know how the CBA works. That's a recipe for total disaster before you add in Vivek's insanity.

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2015, 03:22:08 PM »

Offline Celtic Fan Forever

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I think Miami is a clear winner this offseason. Absolutely stole Winslow in the draft, locked up Dragic, re-signed Wade for a title run, signed G Green and Amare to come in off the bench. To me, Miami is the second best team in the East right now.

Whiteside/Birdman
Bosh/Amare/McRoberts
Deng/Winslow
Wade/G Green
Dragic/Chalmers
2023 CelticsStrong Historical Draft Champions - OKC Thunder
PG: Chauncey Billups/ Baron Davis
SG: Michael Redd/ Dan Majerle/ Allan Houston
SF: Peja Stojakovic/ Gerald Wallace/ Toni Kukoc
PF: Shawn Kemp/ Antonio McDyess
C: Dwight Howard/ Tyson Chandler

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2015, 04:31:38 PM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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I think Miami is a clear winner this offseason. Absolutely stole Winslow in the draft, locked up Dragic, re-signed Wade for a title run, signed G Green and Amare to come in off the bench. To me, Miami is the second best team in the East right now.

Whiteside/Birdman
Bosh/Amare/McRoberts
Deng/Winslow
Wade/G Green
Dragic/Chalmers

Yeah, they'll be interesting for sure. I'm a little less bullish because I've got some doubts about their health but their top 5 is pretty good.

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2015, 04:39:00 PM »

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I think Miami is a clear winner this offseason. Absolutely stole Winslow in the draft, locked up Dragic, re-signed Wade for a title run, signed G Green and Amare to come in off the bench. To me, Miami is the second best team in the East right now.

Whiteside/Birdman
Bosh/Amare/McRoberts
Deng/Winslow
Wade/G Green
Dragic/Chalmers

Don't forget Josh Richardson, either.  Riley and Bird had the best drafts out of anyone, imo.  Sigh.

Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2015, 05:27:24 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think Miami is a clear winner this offseason. Absolutely stole Winslow in the draft, locked up Dragic, re-signed Wade for a title run, signed G Green and Amare to come in off the bench. To me, Miami is the second best team in the East right now.

Whiteside/Birdman
Bosh/Amare/McRoberts
Deng/Winslow
Wade/G Green
Dragic/Chalmers

Don't forget Josh Richardson, either.  Riley and Bird had the best drafts out of anyone, imo.  Sigh.

For a sec I thought you meant Jason Richardson and I was really glad he was able to get out of Philly and join up with a decent team.  I always liked J-Rich and it's been disappointing to see his career wind down the way it has.

Anyway, I agree that Miami had a really good off-season.  If Wade and Bosh can stay healthy they'll be a tough team.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Top 5 offseason Losers..and winners
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2015, 08:25:21 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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They may not be superstars, but that doesn't mean they can't have room to improve, especially Bradley.

The fact that they are not superstars does not mean they can't improve, you are absolutely correct.

I disagree about Bradley having room to improve, though.  I think he's developed a lot since his rookie season, but we've seen what he can do with a larger role and I think aside from maybe improving his perimeter shooting consistency, he is what he is.  A smaller Courtney Lee with a better pull-up mi-range jumper.

My point is that while the team is young, it's not as if we could keep this group of young guys and expect the team to get a whole lot better over time.  Youth only means something insofar as it relates to (1) having many productive years left barring major injury and (2) having the potential to improve.

I think the benefits of the Celts' youth is mostly in category (1) rather than (2), though some of these guys, like Sullinger (due to weight / health), Isaiah Thomas (due to his height), and Young (due to lack of game) might be out of the league five years from now.

Maybe to you but I wouldn't give up on them as all of them still have plenty of room to improve