A classic read: "Danny is a snake"

[Beat LA]

Both Walker and Ainge have some "snake" in them, as far as I'm concerned.

Walker was a selfish player who focused on his own stats and who was never going to lead a team to a title (neither was Pierce btw until Garnett came along).

I don't like the way Danny treats his players. He shops them openly as if they were pawns on a chess board and it has bitten him back over the years. The Celtics winning tradition was not built that way. Red treated his guys with more loyalty and respect than Ainge ever will.

I cannot give you enough Tommy Points for this.

selective memory. remember the stories that swirled around cornbread's trade? let's not put red into the pantheon of saints quite yet.

Lol, I wasn't even alive at that point, but I have read a lot about the 80s, and luckily, there's a blog called lex nihil novi which puts up a ton of old boston globe stories from the Bird era, and almost every day, too.  Nonetheless, I value your input, so feel free to elaborate on the subject.  Btw, this is Celticsblog - when was Red never a saint, haha ?

[Beat LA]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol . I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha . Those picks would have been gold.

i take this as your disapproval of the trade between the celtics and brooklyn. you must be hosting a rather small party if you believe this. not only did wallace's contract not prevent any move of significance by the celtics, ainge turned the third year of wallace into one year of lee.

oh...or maybe you were complimenting ainge. if so, my mistake.

Well, if Ainge had drafted better, we never would have been in that position in the first place, imo, and yes, it was the wrong thing to do, but again, that's only my view.  I just can't see Red ever doing something like that - he was far too loyal.

As for Wallace ultimately netting us Lee - woo, lol .

[More Banners]

The two major roster problems were being over the cap and not having enough talent or assets to improve with. Trading around brought in more pieces to work with.

In hindsight, letting his deal simply expire might have been wiser. But Ainge tried to add multiple assets instead.

Too early thought he could actually lead a contending team, and DA didn't. It was no secret DA wasn't a fan. He had said so as a commentator on TV, for heaven's sake.

[RockinRyA]

The NBA is a business - but it is also a team sport and I believe you have to balance those two aspects to be successful. Players who are treated like livestock are not going to carry emotion into their game ......... and you have to have emotional focus, both as a team and as an individual, to win championships.

Celtic Pride should still mean something. It would set the Celtics franchise apart from other teams in the league. Danny acts like he is above all that and I will always believe his purely analytic approach cost us Banner 18.

I agree--We were Destroying the League before he made that asinine trade of Perkins for Green...Absolutely Killed our chemistry and Team Spirit....Ainge not only out-smarted himself, he ended the Big 3 era too....Funny, how a few weeks ago, he said sometimes the best trades are the one's you don't make.

Nah, we were destroying the League before Shaq went down, not before Perk was traded. The consensus was, if Shaq returned, we will be champs.

[RockinRyA]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol . I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha . Those picks would have been gold.

The Wallace contract.. that was to match salaries. The trade was never for GW, or do you seriously think Danny traded KG and Pierce to get the services of GW? Its more of a cap space rental, since we were rebuilding anyway. Its a perfect use of available cap space. at the end of the deal, they turn into an expiring, a valuable trade asset.

[ssspence]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol . I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha . Those picks would have been gold.

i take this as your disapproval of the trade between the celtics and brooklyn. you must be hosting a rather small party if you believe this. not only did wallace's contract not prevent any move of significance by the celtics, ainge turned the third year of wallace into one year of lee.

oh...or maybe you were complimenting ainge. if so, my mistake.

Well, if Ainge had drafted better, we never would have been in that position in the first place, imo, and yes, it was the wrong thing to do, but again, that's only my view.  I just can't see Red ever doing something like that - he was far too loyal.

As for Wallace ultimately netting us Lee - woo, lol .

Criticizing the trade that brought Wallace here is bold. You're aware that other elements were involved, correct? That deal is likely to go down as one of the great heists in NBA history, when all is said and done.

[GreenFaith1819]

Loved 'Toine, still do.

Loved that buzzer beater vs LA, too....Kobe was FUMING, which is great .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU

We played as Giant Killers on that day.

I wish we could've put a better team around him...we maxxed out with that 2002-03 team I think.

He had his faults, but they weren't all his, either.

[Beat LA]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol . I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha . Those picks would have been gold.

The Wallace contract.. that was to match salaries. The trade was never for GW, or do you seriously think Danny traded KG and Pierce to get the services of GW? Its more of a cap space rental, since we were rebuilding anyway. Its a perfect use of available cap space. at the end of the deal, they turn into an expiring, a valuable trade asset.

No, I perfectly understood that Wallace was included for financial reasons, but so was Kris Humphries, and at least he was an immediate expiring who could actually play, lol . That's all I'm saying.

[Beat LA]

The NBA is a business - but it is also a team sport and I believe you have to balance those two aspects to be successful. Players who are treated like livestock are not going to carry emotion into their game ......... and you have to have emotional focus, both as a team and as an individual, to win championships.

Celtic Pride should still mean something. It would set the Celtics franchise apart from other teams in the league. Danny acts like he is above all that and I will always believe his purely analytic approach cost us Banner 18.

I agree--We were Destroying the League before he made that asinine trade of Perkins for Green...Absolutely Killed our chemistry and Team Spirit....Ainge not only out-smarted himself, he ended the Big 3 era too....Funny, how a few weeks ago, he said sometimes the best trades are the one's you don't make.

Nah, we were destroying the League before Shaq went down, not before Perk was traded. The consensus was, if Shaq returned, we will be champs.

Nah, we needed considerably more depth at the swing positions, imo, which Ainge could have addressed by signing Tracy McGrady, who would have been great here, imo.  Marquis was excellent, but with his injury history (yes, I know that McGrady had similar issues, but he wouldn't have been asked to play 40 minutes a night, meaning that his body would have held up, imo, while Quis just always seemed to get hurt no matter what) and slight frame (fine for guarding 2s, but not guys like Lebron), it's always good to have insurance, and T-Mac was great for the Pistons that year as well as the Hawks in 2012.

[Beat LA]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol . I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha . Those picks would have been gold.

i take this as your disapproval of the trade between the celtics and brooklyn. you must be hosting a rather small party if you believe this. not only did wallace's contract not prevent any move of significance by the celtics, ainge turned the third year of wallace into one year of lee.

oh...or maybe you were complimenting ainge. if so, my mistake.

Well, if Ainge had drafted better, we never would have been in that position in the first place, imo, and yes, it was the wrong thing to do, but again, that's only my view.  I just can't see Red ever doing something like that - he was far too loyal.

As for Wallace ultimately netting us Lee - woo, lol .

Criticizing the trade that brought Wallace here is bold. You're aware that other elements were involved, correct? That deal is likely to go down as one of the great heists in NBA history, when all is said and done.

Yes, I'm aware of the draft picks, but at the same time, we're now headed into year 3 of the rebuild, and I have yet to see any kind of vision or plan in place other than waiting for some team to stupidly make their superstar(s) available.  What we're in right now is a holding pattern, and I'd be more hopeful about said draft selections if Danny had a good-to-great track record when it comes to drafting, which he does not.  Besides, what if those picks never materialize into anything but mid first rounders?  How would you feel at that point?

[ssspence]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol . I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha . Those picks would have been gold.

i take this as your disapproval of the trade between the celtics and brooklyn. you must be hosting a rather small party if you believe this. not only did wallace's contract not prevent any move of significance by the celtics, ainge turned the third year of wallace into one year of lee.

oh...or maybe you were complimenting ainge. if so, my mistake.

Well, if Ainge had drafted better, we never would have been in that position in the first place, imo, and yes, it was the wrong thing to do, but again, that's only my view.  I just can't see Red ever doing something like that - he was far too loyal.

As for Wallace ultimately netting us Lee - woo, lol .

Criticizing the trade that brought Wallace here is bold. You're aware that other elements were involved, correct? That deal is likely to go down as one of the great heists in NBA history, when all is said and done.

Yes, I'm aware of the draft picks, but at the same time, we're now headed into year 3 of the rebuild, and I have yet to see any kind of vision or plan in place other than waiting for some team to stupidly make their superstar(s) available.  What we're in right now is a holding pattern, and I'd be more hopeful about said draft selections if Danny had a good-to-great track record when it comes to drafting, which he does not.  Besides, what if those picks never materialize into anything but mid first rounders?  How would you feel at that point?

I'd feel good. It'd still be excellent value for what they traded away. But I sincerely doubt they'll be mid-tier picks. The Nets are not making the playoffs next year, and that's just the beginning of the road. Put more bluntly, Wallace's contract had had zero effect on the Cs, other than to help net them a sick ransom. So you're just dead wrong.

As for your assessment of Ainge's draft record, I really don't think you have the first clue what you're talking about. Ainge has had misses, yes. But he's also had some pretty serious hits, and he's never drafted higher that 6th, I believe -- he had the 5th pick in 2007 but traded it for Ray Allen. Outside of RC Buford (golden God), considering where he's had his picks he looks pretty strong against virtually any GM, and is far better than many.

[bdm860]

``Danny wanted to get rid of me,'' said Walker. ``If you look at the trade, I think he really felt like I wouldn't mesh with these guys in Dallas. Me, personally, I think he was really trying to set my career back a little bit. If you really look at what I got traded for, it's got to be the biggest difference [in talent] in history. Usually, an All-Star gets traded for an All-Star. And you gave away Tony Delk, a proven scorer in this league.

"I can't understand it, unless he was trying to put me in a situation where he didn't want me to succeed. Obviously, he's going to ship me West. That's obvious. He didn't think individually I'd shine in Dallas, maybe team-wise. But if I'm putting up minimum numbers and I'm just an average player with this team, he can live with that because he knows that's what he's going to get in return anyways, with Raef [LaFrentz].''

I was always a big Antoine fan, and thought Ainge did get pennies on the dollar for him, but these particular quotes from Antoine, I mean I think they really shed light on the type of player he was.

He just got traded to a 60 win team who had just made it to the WCF (of course Antoine and Boston had been in the ECF the year before, so maybe this isn't as impressive to him), and was bringing back all their key players, plus some new ones.  This is a team who had improved their winning percentage for 6 straight seasons and were a legit championship contender.

They basically already had 4 All-Star caliber players on the team, with Dirk and Nash current All-Stars, Finley 2 years removed but still putting up close to 20ppg, and they had acquired Antwan Jamison 2 months earlier who had just averaged 22/7 and would go on to be an All-Star 2 years later in '05.  Adding Antoine Walker gave them 5 legit All-Star caliber players.

And Antoine is upset about this!?!?  And it's not like any of these guys are known ball hogs or headcases.  It's not like he was asked to share the court with Iverson or Kobe.  Has anyone ever considered Dirk, Nash, Finley or Jamison anything but team-first, class acts?  Antoine is upset about playing with these guys!?  On a team that just won 60 games!?

That's like being upset if you just got traded to the current day Golden State or San Antonio right now for David Lee or Boris Diaw.

I think that shows what was important to Antoine, and it clearly wasn't winning.

[Beat LA]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol . I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha . Those picks would have been gold.

i take this as your disapproval of the trade between the celtics and brooklyn. you must be hosting a rather small party if you believe this. not only did wallace's contract not prevent any move of significance by the celtics, ainge turned the third year of wallace into one year of lee.

oh...or maybe you were complimenting ainge. if so, my mistake.

Well, if Ainge had drafted better, we never would have been in that position in the first place, imo, and yes, it was the wrong thing to do, but again, that's only my view.  I just can't see Red ever doing something like that - he was far too loyal.

As for Wallace ultimately netting us Lee - woo, lol .

Criticizing the trade that brought Wallace here is bold. You're aware that other elements were involved, correct? That deal is likely to go down as one of the great heists in NBA history, when all is said and done.

Yes, I'm aware of the draft picks, but at the same time, we're now headed into year 3 of the rebuild, and I have yet to see any kind of vision or plan in place other than waiting for some team to stupidly make their superstar(s) available.  What we're in right now is a holding pattern, and I'd be more hopeful about said draft selections if Danny had a good-to-great track record when it comes to drafting, which he does not.  Besides, what if those picks never materialize into anything but mid first rounders?  How would you feel at that point?

I'd feel good. It'd still be excellent value for what they traded away. But I sincerely doubt they'll be mid-tier picks. The Nets are not making the playoffs next year, and that's just the beginning of the road. Put more bluntly, Wallace's contract had had zero effect on the Cs, other than to help net them a sick ransom. So you're just dead wrong.

As for your assessment of Ainge's draft record, I really don't think you have the first clue what you're talking about. Ainge has had misses, yes. But he's also had some pretty serious hits, and he's never drafted higher that 6th, I believe -- he had the 5th pick in 2007 but traded it for Ray Allen. Outside of RC Buford (golden God), considering where he's had his picks he looks pretty strong against virtually any GM, and is far better than many.

Where do you think they'll end up for next year, then?  13 or so?  I just think that it's impossible to get equal value for legends, no matter how old they are, and Wallace's contract just seemed like a weight, quite honestly, but what am I dead wrong about, again?

Also, I think that we're going to save ourselves a lot of time and effort if we just agree to disagree about his drafting record, lol , as I've well documented my position on this in the past in numerous threads.  Not necessarily with you, but I just thought that I'd point that out.  If you read over the stuff I'm pretty sure that you'd draw the same conclusion about me as most people do on here - I'm crazy , haha . No big deal.  Don't get me wrong, I hope that it all works out, but I'm also a pessimist, so I'm not exactly looking forward to the prospect of seeing us rely on more ping pong balls, lol . Ugh.

[jambr380]

``Danny wanted to get rid of me,'' said Walker. ``If you look at the trade, I think he really felt like I wouldn't mesh with these guys in Dallas. Me, personally, I think he was really trying to set my career back a little bit. If you really look at what I got traded for, it's got to be the biggest difference [in talent] in history. Usually, an All-Star gets traded for an All-Star. And you gave away Tony Delk, a proven scorer in this league.

"I can't understand it, unless he was trying to put me in a situation where he didn't want me to succeed. Obviously, he's going to ship me West. That's obvious. He didn't think individually I'd shine in Dallas, maybe team-wise. But if I'm putting up minimum numbers and I'm just an average player with this team, he can live with that because he knows that's what he's going to get in return anyways, with Raef [LaFrentz].''

I was always a big Antoine fan, and thought Ainge did get pennies on the dollar for him, but these particular quotes from Antoine, I mean I think they really shed light on the type of player he was.

He just got traded to a 60 win team who had just made it to the WCF (of course Antoine and Boston had been in the ECF the year before, so maybe this isn't as impressive to him), and was bringing back all their key players, plus some new ones.  This is a team who had improved their winning percentage for 6 straight seasons and were a legit championship contender.

They basically already had 4 All-Star caliber players on the team, with Dirk and Nash current All-Stars, Finley 2 years removed but still putting up close to 20ppg, and they had acquired Antwan Jamison 2 months earlier who had just averaged 22/7 and would go on to be an All-Star 2 years later in '05.  Adding Antoine Walker gave them 5 legit All-Star caliber players.

And Antoine is upset about this!?!?  And it's not like any of these guys are known ball hogs or headcases.  It's not like he was asked to share the court with Iverson or Kobe.  Has anyone ever considered Dirk, Nash, Finley or Jamison anything but team-first, class acts?  Antoine is upset about playing with these guys!?  On a team that just won 60 games!?

That's like being upset if you just got traded to the current day Golden State or San Antonio right now for David Lee or Boris Diaw.

I think that shows what was important to Antoine, and it clearly wasn't winning.

I think he said that Danny may have thought he would succeed 'team-wise'; however, it would probably be difficult to be traded from a team where you are one of two stars on your team coming off several successful seasons to a new team loaded with forwards (Dirk, Jamison, and Finley).

It may show Antoine as a little selfish, but as a star in this league and the natural leader of his former team, I think he just saw Ainge as a hot shot who had something out for him (which isn't too far-fetched).

As already discussed, Danny later re-traded for Antoine and both had likely matured by that point in time. When it was clear there wasn't a future for Antoine in Boston, he sent him to a situation in Miami which made much more sense. Basically, Antoine may have had a beef at the time of the first trade, but it's irrelevant now because they made up many years ago.

[33_Larry Legend_33]

There is nothing like a Mike Gorman "GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"...