Author Topic: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT  (Read 101652 times)

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Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2015, 08:50:01 PM »

Offline Eja117

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MMSb's 2016 2nd is available
I got an offer for that

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2015, 09:02:40 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I have heard from BFM who has a fair point that he should not have been kicked out of celticsblog or the PTS league when his infractions were lesser than or equal to others involved. He has not voluntarily left the league and does not understand why he has to be removed. He was told he cannot be part of the PTS league if he is banned from celticsblog, YET, Pittsburgh Pisces has been, and still is, a big part of the PTS league and refused to join celticsblog, so there is some clear bias/hypocracy going on here.

I am in favor of holding off from deciding on a replacement GM until this issue is explained and resolved fully. BFM was not even close to the main cause of the troubles that resulted in this action. Reportedly Byennie was intimidated into kicking BFM out by a forum moderator who has a personal history with BFM and was likely glad to get rid of him. However, forum moderators who are not part of the league should not tell us how to run our league.

We need an explanation of the following:

1) Why was BFM kicked out the league with no warning, while other offenders of equal or greater level, with their own past history of being warned, were not?

2) The supposed rule that have to be a member of celticsblog to be part of the PTS league, this was never a rule in the constitution, and was never voted on by any of us. IF we assume this rule is valid, then we have to kick out Pitt or have him join celticsblog.

Instead of glossing over this latest issue, which only reflects an ongoing pattern of a number of GMs here and external people, we have to come to terms with the fact that we are at a critical juncture of this league, and have to set some clear rules about this issue going forward, that are EQUALLY applied to all participants. The fact is, BFM made some disgusting posts and personal messages, but a number of other GMs have also repeatedly done the same thing in these forums and in the Yahoo forums , which originally caused the former commish to mentally check out and then quit. If we don't admit this , and address it fully, this league will be over soon. Selectively throwing one GM under the bus and calling it a day doesnt equal a solution.


No disrespect to the commish, but rules have to follow the league constitution, which we all vote and approve. Any ammendments of any sort have to be proposed and voted on 1 year in advance before they can be put into action. This is why I think we need a clear explanation of these actions, so that we can propose and set new rules in the future on treating each other with respect, and being active in the league, as requirements for staying in the league. Once this is set, we can set clear consequences for all members who violate these rules.

On CelticsBlog, BFM's actions were by far the most egregious. Also, this wasn't a first offense for him.  The ban was unanimous by the staff, and is permanent.

BFM has caused major trouble in the points league, the H2H league, and CelticsBlog.   You guys can resolve league issues as you want, but if the league is going to remain hosted in part on CelticsBlog, we can't have nonsense like the other week.  Read back through BFM's posts and tell me that his behavior was respectful and consistent with CB standards.

Roy, you are completely right to ban BFM from the forums here, his behavior consistently violated a number of rules. I am not arguing against his dismissal from celticsblog. I am arguing about his dismissal from the league when others have displayed equally offensive behavior, even to the point of threatening to go to other GMs houses to physically beat them, and are still in the league. He was not the only one, not this time and certainly not in the past several times. This is a long term league problem, and I think we need to amend the league constitution to prevent this from happening here and in the yahoo forums or else the league will eventually shut down. Even though BFM is gone, this stuff pops up again every season at some point in the yahoo forums where it gets much more out of hand than it did here, and many people are guilty of it.

I will list just a few people that have gotten caught up in and participated in such attacks over the last few seasons:

BFM
Eja
myself (hpantazo)
LB33
Rondo
Champkind
Pitt
Roy in the H2H league

Not many of us are blameless.

Let's vote on amendments to prevent it across the board. As the league constitution stands, there is no rule that people have to be part of celticsblog to be part of the league. It is of course understandable not to have people who violate forum rules post here, but that does not mean they cannot participate in the league, as Pitt has done for many years and still does. Kicking BFM out of the league while other violators go unpunished sets a poor precedence regarding issues that have occurred several times, and a number of times did not even involve BFM. Let's set new, clear, well stated rules that will keep everyone up to at least normal standards of respect here and in the yahoo league forum.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2015, 09:34:02 PM »

Online Birdman

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On another note, cant wait for the draft!!!
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2015, 09:46:44 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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On another note, cant wait for the draft!!!
i wish I could say that I might surprise people with the top pick, but summer league convinced me towns is by far the best prospect.  A couple guys are pretty intriguing though.

Brahma is going to be really interesting with picks 2, 3 and 4.  I bet mudiay goes higher in our draft than the real one.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2015, 09:49:47 PM »

Offline byennie

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On BFM:

Many people behaved badly, but he was not singled out. Nobody else was banned from CBlog, and this is a CBlog based league. I'm not going to grade every infraction on a relative scale or dole out a progressive warning system. Folks who got CBlog warnings or lesser suspensions are simply closer to suffering the same fate, if they get kicked off this site in the future.

I am open to clarifying this in the league constitution, but my stance as commissioner is that getting kicked off of CBlog results in an automatic dismissal from the league. Pitt's infraction pre-dates my involvement, so I'm not going to retroactively remove him.

It takes a lot to get permanently banned from these forums. You should probably expect to not belong to a CelticsBlog league if you manage to do so. Honestly, if we need to keep people that behave that badly, then I'm out.

I'll be starting some new threads to help get things more organized, and updating the trade log. After that, I will look into the new GM candidates and we can start talking draft dates and any other orders of business...

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2015, 09:57:44 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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On BFM:

Many people behaved badly, but he was not singled out. Nobody else was banned from CBlog, and this is a CBlog based league. I'm not going to grade every infraction on a relative scale or dole out a progressive warning system. Folks who got CBlog warnings or lesser suspensions are simply closer to suffering the same fate, if they get kicked off this site in the future.

I am open to clarifying this in the league constitution, but my stance as commissioner is that getting kicked off of CBlog results in an automatic dismissal from the league. Pitt's infraction pre-dates my involvement, so I'm not going to retroactively remove him.

It takes a lot to get permanently banned from these forums. You should probably expect to not belong to a CelticsBlog league if you manage to do so. Honestly, if we need to keep people that behave that badly, then I'm out.

I'll be starting some new threads to help get things more organized, and updating the trade log. After that, I will look into the new GM candidates and we can start talking draft dates and any other orders of business...

With all due respect, you do not have any authority to change the league constitution without league vote. That is how the league has always worked. The commish is more like the U.S. president working with congress than a czar. I think we need the league constitution changed to be able to enforce such issues, so we should propose some amendments for this. But again, there is no such rule that if you are not on celticsblog you can't be in the league, and you do not have the authority to change that without a vote. You also did this when you allowed trading of draft picks for the following season earlier than the draft, and opening up the offseason early, which I didn't speak up about for selfish reasons, but that is against league policy. We typically had such votes for future rule changes occur a year in advance and take effect the following season, but with enough votes exceptions to that timeline have happened. Not trying to be contradictory , just trying to help out and adhere to the policies we have used for many years.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2015, 10:08:03 PM »

Offline Eja117

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On BFM:

Many people behaved badly, but he was not singled out. Nobody else was banned from CBlog, and this is a CBlog based league. I'm not going to grade every infraction on a relative scale or dole out a progressive warning system. Folks who got CBlog warnings or lesser suspensions are simply closer to suffering the same fate, if they get kicked off this site in the future.

I am open to clarifying this in the league constitution, but my stance as commissioner is that getting kicked off of CBlog results in an automatic dismissal from the league. Pitt's infraction pre-dates my involvement, so I'm not going to retroactively remove him.

It takes a lot to get permanently banned from these forums. You should probably expect to not belong to a CelticsBlog league if you manage to do so. Honestly, if we need to keep people that behave that badly, then I'm out.

I'll be starting some new threads to help get things more organized, and updating the trade log. After that, I will look into the new GM candidates and we can start talking draft dates and any other orders of business...

With all due respect, you do not have any authority to change the league constitution without league vote. That is how the league has always worked. The commish is more like the U.S. president working with congress than a czar. I think we need the league constitution changed to be able to enforce such issues, so we should propose some amendments for this. But again, there is no such rule that if you are not on celticsblog you can't be in the league, and you do not have the authority to change that without a vote. You also did this when you allowed trading of draft picks for the following season earlier than the draft, and opening up the offseason early, which I didn't speak up about for selfish reasons, but that is against league policy. We typically had such votes for future rule changes occur a year in advance and take effect the following season, but with enough votes exceptions to that timeline have happened. Not trying to be contradictory , just trying to help out and adhere to the policies we have used for many years.
I don't get what you're saying here at all. You immediately started trading as soon as byennie said we could and now you're saying we shouldn't have done that?

I suppose it's true that the president needs to work with Congress, but every once in a long while some congress member somewhere breaks laws and has to go to jail and when that happens the president doesn't have to deal with that senator any more.

Are you suggesting that BFM's public behavior was somehow within the scope of our constitution? Maybe when he gets out of jail he can run for congress again.

I've never seen behavior similar to that. It's nothing borderline similar to bickering or arguing or disagreeing or even accusing.  I was beside myself reading that stuff.  It left me speechless and as you all know eja becoming speechless is the 7th sign of the apocalypse.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2015, 10:18:50 PM »

Offline byennie

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I'm happy to have a civil discussion around BFM. If the majority of GMs want him to stay, I'll listen. However, I'm under the impression that is overwhelmingly not the case.

That said:

1) The idea that the commissioner can't kick someone out unless he can cite a clause in the constitution is not going to fly. I'm sure we can all imagine 100 different things that obviously warrant removal that aren't in there. You can remove me, if necessary. That's the recourse for something like this. If we have a majority of GMs that think BFM deserves to stay, then honestly, I wouldn't want to be a part of this league.

2) I just caught this bit, but I was in no way "intimidated" by a CBlog admin. I strictly got information about CBlog bans so that I could assess the situation. End of story. Anything else is imagined to spread the blame.

3) Behavior like what occurred can and would eventually get the whole league kicked off of here, and deservedly so. I'd like to preserve our place on this forum.

That's about it. If anyone wants to propose some specific step, I'll consider it as always, but I don't see a whole lot of leeway here.

As for the other rules cited, let's address any concerns you have separately. Lumping it with the BFM situation is unwieldy.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #98 on: July 25, 2015, 10:23:46 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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On BFM:

Many people behaved badly, but he was not singled out. Nobody else was banned from CBlog, and this is a CBlog based league. I'm not going to grade every infraction on a relative scale or dole out a progressive warning system. Folks who got CBlog warnings or lesser suspensions are simply closer to suffering the same fate, if they get kicked off this site in the future.

I am open to clarifying this in the league constitution, but my stance as commissioner is that getting kicked off of CBlog results in an automatic dismissal from the league. Pitt's infraction pre-dates my involvement, so I'm not going to retroactively remove him.

It takes a lot to get permanently banned from these forums. You should probably expect to not belong to a CelticsBlog league if you manage to do so. Honestly, if we need to keep people that behave that badly, then I'm out.

I'll be starting some new threads to help get things more organized, and updating the trade log. After that, I will look into the new GM candidates and we can start talking draft dates and any other orders of business...

With all due respect, you do not have any authority to change the league constitution without league vote. That is how the league has always worked. The commish is more like the U.S. president working with congress than a czar. I think we need the league constitution changed to be able to enforce such issues, so we should propose some amendments for this. But again, there is no such rule that if you are not on celticsblog you can't be in the league, and you do not have the authority to change that without a vote. You also did this when you allowed trading of draft picks for the following season earlier than the draft, and opening up the offseason early, which I didn't speak up about for selfish reasons, but that is against league policy. We typically had such votes for future rule changes occur a year in advance and take effect the following season, but with enough votes exceptions to that timeline have happened. Not trying to be contradictory , just trying to help out and adhere to the policies we have used for many years.
I don't get what you're saying here at all. You immediately started trading as soon as byennie said we could and now you're saying we shouldn't have done that?

I suppose it's true that the president needs to work with Congress, but every once in a long while some congress member somewhere breaks laws and has to go to jail and when that happens the president doesn't have to deal with that senator any more.

Are you suggesting that BFM's public behavior was somehow within the scope of our constitution? Maybe when he gets out of jail he can run for congress again.

I've never seen behavior similar to that. It's nothing borderline similar to bickering or arguing or disagreeing or even accusing.  I was beside myself reading that stuff.  It left me speechless and as you all know eja becoming speechless is the 7th sign of the apocalypse.

Come on Eja, you have been in the league long enough to know we don't change rules without league votes. Did I ask fro BFM to be re-instated? No. I asked for clarification of the rules that were used to oust him, and to propose ammedments to stop further such behavior which you and I and others have also participated in during the past, unless you blocked out the memories of the countless yahoo forum flame wars that you participated in which were equally bad to what BFM just got banned for.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #99 on: July 25, 2015, 10:35:31 PM »

Offline Eja117

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On BFM:

Many people behaved badly, but he was not singled out. Nobody else was banned from CBlog, and this is a CBlog based league. I'm not going to grade every infraction on a relative scale or dole out a progressive warning system. Folks who got CBlog warnings or lesser suspensions are simply closer to suffering the same fate, if they get kicked off this site in the future.

I am open to clarifying this in the league constitution, but my stance as commissioner is that getting kicked off of CBlog results in an automatic dismissal from the league. Pitt's infraction pre-dates my involvement, so I'm not going to retroactively remove him.

It takes a lot to get permanently banned from these forums. You should probably expect to not belong to a CelticsBlog league if you manage to do so. Honestly, if we need to keep people that behave that badly, then I'm out.

I'll be starting some new threads to help get things more organized, and updating the trade log. After that, I will look into the new GM candidates and we can start talking draft dates and any other orders of business...

With all due respect, you do not have any authority to change the league constitution without league vote. That is how the league has always worked. The commish is more like the U.S. president working with congress than a czar. I think we need the league constitution changed to be able to enforce such issues, so we should propose some amendments for this. But again, there is no such rule that if you are not on celticsblog you can't be in the league, and you do not have the authority to change that without a vote. You also did this when you allowed trading of draft picks for the following season earlier than the draft, and opening up the offseason early, which I didn't speak up about for selfish reasons, but that is against league policy. We typically had such votes for future rule changes occur a year in advance and take effect the following season, but with enough votes exceptions to that timeline have happened. Not trying to be contradictory , just trying to help out and adhere to the policies we have used for many years.
I don't get what you're saying here at all. You immediately started trading as soon as byennie said we could and now you're saying we shouldn't have done that?

I suppose it's true that the president needs to work with Congress, but every once in a long while some congress member somewhere breaks laws and has to go to jail and when that happens the president doesn't have to deal with that senator any more.

Are you suggesting that BFM's public behavior was somehow within the scope of our constitution? Maybe when he gets out of jail he can run for congress again.

I've never seen behavior similar to that. It's nothing borderline similar to bickering or arguing or disagreeing or even accusing.  I was beside myself reading that stuff.  It left me speechless and as you all know eja becoming speechless is the 7th sign of the apocalypse.

Come on Eja, you have been in the league long enough to know we don't change rules without league votes. Did I ask fro BFM to be re-instated? No. I asked for clarification of the rules that were used to oust him, and to propose ammedments to stop further such behavior which you and I and others have also participated in during the past, unless you blocked out the memories of the countless yahoo forum flame wars that you participated in which were equally bad to what BFM just got banned for.
Waaaiiittt a second. Do I admit to various flame wars? heck yes. Were they on Yahoo? Heck yes. Is that on some level fundamentally different right there? yes. Was I shocked to see that stuff? Sadly no.  Did I think it rose to the level of previous stuff I have observed? No. Do I remember some flat out aggressive discussions? Heck yes. Do I remember exceptional derogatory language like that? No.

Constitutional clarification.....ok....let me clarify this...These are some circumstances under which we/our commissioner don't have to wait a year to ban someone after making a rule.

GM involves self in mass shooting or terrorist attack
GM hacks site and conducts various trades by self
GM breaks into byennies house
GM insists on denying the Holocaust in every post for no real reason
GM threatens to commit suicide if he doesn't get Anthony Davis for a 2nd rounder in a trade
GM declares himself a sovereign nation and that one must refer to him going forward as "Your majesty" or "your royal highness"
GM posts explicit **** on site....although maybe we should take a vote on that just to be sure
GM manages to send our sensitive information to the Russians
GM joins ISIS
GM does what BFM did.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #100 on: July 25, 2015, 10:45:19 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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The discussion is not about who's offenses are worse, it's that this stuff always goes on every season. We need to make clear rules to stop it.

My other point is, there is no such rule that you have to be a celticsblog member to be part of the league. The commish can't refer to such rule as justification for kicking one person out and not others. If we want to make such a rule, it has to be proposed , and voted on. If you guys want such a rule, propose it and lets vote on it.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #101 on: July 25, 2015, 10:47:23 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I just want to comment specifically about offseason trading opening up early.  I know what Harry is referring to and its a little mixed up.

The constitution doesn't reference any specific day when offseason trades open up.  I may be wrong but it seems it was always at the commissioners discretion when he opened that up.  It usually opens once the offseason tracking sheet is set up.  Technically I think byennie could have had offseason trades open while the NBA playoffs were still going. It was his call.

What Harry is remembering is actually related to the trading of draft picks.  The constitution says you can't trade picks more than a year out. So technically we couldn't trade 2016 picks until the day of the actual 2015 NBA draft.   The thing is, we were only a couple weeks from the 2015 NBA draft and it didn't seem to make any difference whether we waited those two weeks or not.  A ton of us had already discussed a bunch of contingent deals (such as Harry and Kevin) that were obviously going to happen eventually... And since we were all anxious to just get some deals made, byennie said he'd allow the trading of 2016 picks a couple weeks early unless someone protested.  Since there was no reason to protest, none of us did. 

My assumption is that the commish has some power within reason.  That situation seemed to be handled fairly and appropriately.  I can't imagine anyone here cares that we could officially trade 2016 picks a couple weeks early.  That rule is in place as a sort of sepian rule that prevents poorly run teams from trading all their future draft picks and then bailing.  No harm came from it.  We can't trade 2017 picks right now for an obvious reason... But does anyone care if we can move 2017 picks as of June 12th 2016 vs June 25th 2016?   

Solution:  on that specific rule we can clarify the language about moving picks a year out.  Once offseason trading opens up, it makes sense that we could trade next years picks.   Offseason trading should still open up whenever the commish sets up the tracking sheet and opens up trades... Since it gets pretty boring here during the NBA offseason and it's a pretty fun way to pass time.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 10:54:26 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #102 on: July 25, 2015, 10:51:15 PM »

Offline Eja117

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The discussion is not about who's offenses are worse, it's that this stuff always goes on every season. We need to make clear rules to stop it.

My other point is, there is no such rule that you have to be a celticsblog member to be part of the league. The commish can't refer to such rule as justification for kicking one person out and not others. If we want to make such a rule, it has to be proposed , and voted on. If you guys want such a rule, propose it and lets vote on it.
I don't think anyone has any problem with proposing rules to stop it. Although I notice BFM has stopped.
You are absolutely right that you don't have to be a CB member to be in the league. I don't think the commish cited that as the justification.
Also there is a difference between not being in CB and having been kicked out of CB for what BFM did.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #103 on: July 25, 2015, 10:58:52 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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The discussion is not about who's offenses are worse, it's that this stuff always goes on every season. We need to make clear rules to stop it.

My other point is, there is no such rule that you have to be a celticsblog member to be part of the league. The commish can't refer to such rule as justification for kicking one person out and not others. If we want to make such a rule, it has to be proposed , and voted on. If you guys want such a rule, propose it and lets vote on it.
I don't think anyone has any problem with proposing rules to stop it. Although I notice BFM has stopped.
You are absolutely right that you don't have to be a CB member to be in the league. I don't think the commish cited that as the justification.
Also there is a difference between not being in CB and having been kicked out of CB for what BFM did.


Yep, those are my two main points. If we propose and vote on amendments to stop such future behavior here and in yahoo, and clarify the insinuation that you can't be in the league if you are not on celticsblog, which byennie did state (see his earlier post in this thread), yet is not a rule, then I'm good. We need to follow the constitution, within reason as LB33 states, to make and amend rules. We can't just make them with no votes and the majority of the league not even present as we go. Honestly, only about 1/4 of the league has been around and participated in any way this offseason, and some may not even know that trading is open.

Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT
« Reply #104 on: July 25, 2015, 11:12:24 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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The discussion is not about who's offenses are worse, it's that this stuff always goes on every season. We need to make clear rules to stop it.

My other point is, there is no such rule that you have to be a celticsblog member to be part of the league. The commish can't refer to such rule as justification for kicking one person out and not others. If we want to make such a rule, it has to be proposed , and voted on. If you guys want such a rule, propose it and lets vote on it.
I don't think anyone has any problem with proposing rules to stop it. Although I notice BFM has stopped.
You are absolutely right that you don't have to be a CB member to be in the league. I don't think the commish cited that as the justification.
Also there is a difference between not being in CB and having been kicked out of CB for what BFM did.


Yep, those are my two main points. If we propose and vote on amendments to stop such future behavior here and in yahoo, and clarify the insinuation that you can't be in the league if you are not on celticsblog, which byennie did state (see his earlier post in this thread), yet is not a rule, then I'm good. We need to follow the constitution, within reason as LB33 states, to make and amend rules. We can't just make them with no votes and the majority of the league not even present as we go. Honestly, only about 1/4 of the league has been around and participated in any way this offseason, and some may not even know that trading is open.
Trust me... They know offseason trading is open ;)

Edit:  Seriously, though I've had trade discussions with literally ever member of the league this offseason except for 1 GM, but he's been around.  There's a couple guys who don't seem to check the threads daily, but everyone is definitely around... And probably as active as they are in the regular season.  There's a couple guys who are harder to get ahold of, but aware of what's happening.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 11:26:13 PM by LarBrd33 »