Lucky17's Yahoo! Points Hoops League: 2015 Offseason REBOOT

[Eja117]

Just an FYI we do have a rule about activity:

6. GM activity is vital. GMs who are inactive without a roster move, post, or other demonstrable proof of logging on and checking one?s lineup for 7 straight days are issued a warning. A second warning is grounds for replacement in the league. 14 straight days of inactivity is also grounds for replacement.

I think byennie plans on making a separate thread for rule discussions.  Theres still a couple we should propose tweaks for and then I can help set up a ballot system where we can group all of them together and have one large vote before the season.

The commish should handle all voting for new rules

Agreed. LB33 should not be involved in handling rule discussions any more than proposing and discussing rules as any other GM does.

Lol.  If you guys misinterpreted me, I was saying I could help set up a system for voting. 

We can suggest rule changes on the forum and eventually I can help put them all on an organized webform so we can have one large vote before the season starts.   

Obviously the results of that vote would go directly to the commish.

I don't think that's necessary.

What part is unnecessary ?  Voting?  Lol. Are you suggesting that we just suggest rule amendments and let the commish decide on them?  Or are you suggesting that having one large vote on the dozens of potential rule suggestions is "unnecessary"?

I can already think of 4 rule ammendment suggestions previously recommended. 

This forum isn't going to be organized enough for the vote.  For Harry's previous suggestions, for example, I can I think of valid pros and cons.  A brief synopsis of those pros and cons should be included for each ammendment suggestion... That way someone who doesn't necessarily read every single forum post and doesn't have a ton of time (like Bada bing for instance) only has to read the ammendment suggestions once in a large pre-season vote... As opposed to expecting each rule to be voted on individually... Which is unrealistic.

I think it was clear what Kevin meant. We have handled this stuff very well in the past by having threads to discuss pros and cons of amendments, and have GMs send their votes to the commish or vote on yahoo in a poll. I see no reason why this should be changed.

I'd agree we probably don't want to fix what isn't broken.

[LarBrd33]

Just an FYI we do have a rule about activity:

6. GM activity is vital. GMs who are inactive without a roster move, post, or other demonstrable proof of logging on and checking one?s lineup for 7 straight days are issued a warning. A second warning is grounds for replacement in the league. 14 straight days of inactivity is also grounds for replacement.

I think byennie plans on making a separate thread for rule discussions.  Theres still a couple we should propose tweaks for and then I can help set up a ballot system where we can group all of them together and have one large vote before the season.

The commish should handle all voting for new rules

Agreed. LB33 should not be involved in handling rule discussions any more than proposing and discussing rules as any other GM does.

Lol.  If you guys misinterpreted me, I was saying I could help set up a system for voting. 

We can suggest rule changes on the forum and eventually I can help put them all on an organized webform so we can have one large vote before the season starts.   

Obviously the results of that vote would go directly to the commish.

I don't think that's necessary.

What part is unnecessary ?  Voting?  Lol. Are you suggesting that we just suggest rule amendments and let the commish decide on them?  Or are you suggesting that having one large vote on the dozens of potential rule suggestions is "unnecessary"?

I can already think of 4 rule ammendment suggestions previously recommended. 

This forum isn't going to be organized enough for the vote.  For Harry's previous suggestions, for example, I can I think of valid pros and cons.  A brief synopsis of those pros and cons should be included for each ammendment suggestion... That way someone who doesn't necessarily read every single forum post and doesn't have a ton of time (like Bada bing for instance) only has to read the ammendment suggestions once in a large pre-season vote... As opposed to expecting each rule to be voted on individually... Which is unrealistic.

I think it was clear what Kevin meant. We have handled this stuff very well in the past by having threads to discuss pros and cons of amendments, and have GMs send their votes to the commish or vote on yahoo in a poll. I see no reason why this should be changed.

Ok so if it's important to you guys we can wait until yahoo is activated and create dozens of individual threads on there for voting on each specific rule change... Forget efficiency.  Word. Whatever.

All I was saying is that I can help set up the voting system. Lol. This is a non issue. If it's important to you to have it done in yahoo, so be it.  That's funny.  Of course, how close before the season does yahoo let you set up shop?... And what if one of the rule suggestions is to change it to a h2h league on ESPN?   Lol.

[LarBrd33]

Fellas, let's not get into the habit of disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

If the intention is to make progress in this league then obviously the "old ways" are irrelevant.

You don't have to take some grand contrarian stance simply because I said I'd help set up a system for one large efficient vote.

Clearly the yahoo system is garbage for voting. You'd have to create individual threads for each specific rule suggestion.  You have no way of knowing who has voted... So if only 7 votes are tallied we don't know who to bother and remind to vote.  You can't possibly expect all 20 members of this league to click into every single rule suggestion and vote.

 What I was saying is that we can have a thread built specifically for debating the pros and cons of rule amendments and when the season is close to approaching we can have every single rule suggestion put on one large webform that can be sent out to every single member of the league for one large vote.  Then someone like juggs who doesn't seem to read every thread can only be bugged once... And we can get votes from all 20 teams on every suggestion large and small.

There's at least 5 rule change suggestions I can already think of... Everything from amending the 75 missed game rule and the associated draft pick penalty... To a game-changing rule to make this a h2h league.   Everything can and should be voted on. Merely offering to help make things more efficient and organized. I don't care who sets up that webform. It's irrelevant. 

[Birdman]

Want to just let everyone know that Im keeping Noah Vonleh..I had 5 GMs ask bout him

[hpantazo]

Fellas, let's not get into the habit of disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

If the intention is to make progress in this league then obviously the "old ways" are irrelevant.

You don't have to take some grand contrarian stance simply because I said I'd help set up a system for one large efficient vote.

Clearly the yahoo system is garbage for voting. You'd have to create individual threads for each specific rule suggestion.  You have no way of knowing who has voted... So if only 7 votes are tallied we don't know who to bother and remind to vote.  You can't possibly expect all 20 members of this league to click into every single rule suggestion and vote.

 What I was saying is that we can have a thread built specifically for debating the pros and cons of rule amendments and when the season is close to approaching we can have every single rule suggestion put on one large webform that can be sent out to every single member of the league for one large vote.  Then someone like juggs who doesn't seem to read every thread can only be bugged once... And we can get votes from all 20 teams on every suggestion large and small.

There's at least 5 rule change suggestions I can already think of... Everything from amending the 75 missed game rule and the associated draft pick penalty... To a game-changing rule to make this a h2h league.   Everything can and should be voted on. Merely offering to help make things more efficient and organized. I don't care who sets up that webform. It's irrelevant.

I think it is fairly obvious that some GMs do not want you involved in this process because of your past history in a number of incidents, the most recent of which lead to your temporary suspension on celticsblog. You have a history of getting into trouble in these situations or somehow causing this stuff to snowball into something bad, so some of us prefer that you do not take on the role of an unofficial commish , as it will be perceived badly. Make suggestions, amendment proposals, etc, but let the commish handle it for your own sake.

One thing I noticed from past offseason amendment threads, each proposed amendment, for better or worse, needs its own thread, otherwise the discussions get very confusing very quickly. Those who do not have the time and/or desire to read and respond, do not, and things work out.

[LarBrd33]

Fellas, let's not get into the habit of disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

If the intention is to make progress in this league then obviously the "old ways" are irrelevant.

You don't have to take some grand contrarian stance simply because I said I'd help set up a system for one large efficient vote.

Clearly the yahoo system is garbage for voting. You'd have to create individual threads for each specific rule suggestion.  You have no way of knowing who has voted... So if only 7 votes are tallied we don't know who to bother and remind to vote.  You can't possibly expect all 20 members of this league to click into every single rule suggestion and vote.

 What I was saying is that we can have a thread built specifically for debating the pros and cons of rule amendments and when the season is close to approaching we can have every single rule suggestion put on one large webform that can be sent out to every single member of the league for one large vote.  Then someone like juggs who doesn't seem to read every thread can only be bugged once... And we can get votes from all 20 teams on every suggestion large and small.

There's at least 5 rule change suggestions I can already think of... Everything from amending the 75 missed game rule and the associated draft pick penalty... To a game-changing rule to make this a h2h league.   Everything can and should be voted on. Merely offering to help make things more efficient and organized. I don't care who sets up that webform. It's irrelevant.

I think it is fairly obvious that some GMs do not want you involved in this process because of your past history in a number of incidents, the most recent of which lead to your temporary suspension on celticsblog. You have a history of getting into trouble in these situations or somehow causing this stuff to snowball into something bad, so some of us prefer that you do not take on the role of an unofficial commish , as it will be perceived badly. Make suggestions, amendment proposals, etc, but let the commish handle it for your own sake.

One thing I noticed from past offseason amendment threads, each proposed amendment, for better or worse, needs its own thread, otherwise the discussions get very confusing very quickly. Those who do not have the time and/or desire to read and respond, do not, and things work out.

I'm in no way suggesting I take on any responsibility whatsoever.

I'm talking about building a webform.  Relax.  This is the equivalent of getting upset about me putting the rules and offseason tracking on Nedyken.com/CBPL  ... Or getting upset about me running the tourneys.  I'm doing my best to help improve this league.  By all means, step up and contribute.

But seriously Harry if you'd prefer that I stop contributing on account of the fact that I was on the receiving end of months of Internet bullying and harassment, so be it.  My bad for being the latest victim of harassment.

[hpantazo]

Fellas, let's not get into the habit of disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

If the intention is to make progress in this league then obviously the "old ways" are irrelevant.

You don't have to take some grand contrarian stance simply because I said I'd help set up a system for one large efficient vote.

Clearly the yahoo system is garbage for voting. You'd have to create individual threads for each specific rule suggestion.  You have no way of knowing who has voted... So if only 7 votes are tallied we don't know who to bother and remind to vote.  You can't possibly expect all 20 members of this league to click into every single rule suggestion and vote.

 What I was saying is that we can have a thread built specifically for debating the pros and cons of rule amendments and when the season is close to approaching we can have every single rule suggestion put on one large webform that can be sent out to every single member of the league for one large vote.  Then someone like juggs who doesn't seem to read every thread can only be bugged once... And we can get votes from all 20 teams on every suggestion large and small.

There's at least 5 rule change suggestions I can already think of... Everything from amending the 75 missed game rule and the associated draft pick penalty... To a game-changing rule to make this a h2h league.   Everything can and should be voted on. Merely offering to help make things more efficient and organized. I don't care who sets up that webform. It's irrelevant.

I think it is fairly obvious that some GMs do not want you involved in this process because of your past history in a number of incidents, the most recent of which lead to your temporary suspension on celticsblog. You have a history of getting into trouble in these situations or somehow causing this stuff to snowball into something bad, so some of us prefer that you do not take on the role of an unofficial commish , as it will be perceived badly. Make suggestions, amendment proposals, etc, but let the commish handle it for your own sake.

One thing I noticed from past offseason amendment threads, each proposed amendment, for better or worse, needs its own thread, otherwise the discussions get very confusing very quickly. Those who do not have the time and/or desire to read and respond, do not, and things work out.

I'm in no way suggesting I take on any responsibility whatsoever.

I'm talking about building a webform.  Relax.  This is the equivalent of getting upset about me putting the rules and offseason tracking on Nedyken.com/CBPL  ... Or getting upset about me running the tourneys.  I'm doing my best to help improve this league.  By all means, step up and contribute.

But seriously Harry if you'd prefer that I stop contributing on account of the fact that I was on the receiving end of months of Internet bullying and harassment, so be it.  My bad for being the latest victim of harassment.

My suggestion is for your benefit, to prevent your actions from being perceived as something else, and to let the process of league amendments go smoothly without personal biases, causing it to snowball into more out of control debacles. Of course, all I can do is suggest, you are free to do as you like.

[LarBrd33]

It's fine with me Harry. Someone else build a webform.  On account of my history of being internet bullied and harassed, it's probably for the best that I don't help create a webform that would solve the very thing you just complained about (confusing threads).  When you see all the ammendment suggestions with pros/cons concisely laid out in one large pre-season vote webform, it would be troubling to find out that the guy with the history of being internet bullied and harassed had anything to do with building it.  For my benefit, I'll obstain from building the webform.  I wouldn't want my helpfulness to be perceived the wrong way.

[hpantazo]

It's fine with me Harry. Someone else build a webform.  On account of my history of being internet bullied and harassed, it's probably for the best that I don't help create a webform that would solve the very thing you just complained about (confusing threads).  When you see all the ammendment suggestions with pros/cons concisely laid out in one large pre-season vote webform, it would be troubling to find out that the guy with the history of being internet bullied and harassed had anything to do with building it.  For my benefit, I'll obstain from building the webform.

I know that Yahoo's web design is fairly rudimentary, but it has gotten the job done in the past with no confusion, and it alleviates the risk of having anyone perceive that there is bias or manipulation in any of the votes, which would occur if any GM builds the webforms himself. That is why I believe it is best to leave the process as is.

[Eja117]

LB33....it's a fine idea in a vacuum and maybe some day it can happen. Right now we'll probably stick with yahoo. Your website is pretty good and involved, but the voting should probably be handled by the commish, and he is way too busy to build such a thing at this time (I'm pretty sure he would tell you that).

Hp...LB33 did some fine work on the web site and has a possibly reasonable idea in and of itself.

It's not worth getting into right now.

LB....send your idea to the commish.  Hp and Rondo (and me) ....our objection is dully noted. If this flares up less than 3 weeks after the last embarrassment I'm pretty sure this league gets shut down on CB.

That's not an option in the view of the commish, nor others. We are not going to be conducting this league on a website built by LB33 or the commish, nor in email, nor in Skype.  At the very least it would largely cease to be a year round league. We're essentially on double secret probation right now and we're being watched and we gotta act like it. Maybe get through one reasonably normal year first and then discuss mildly uncomfortable changes for the sake of efficiency.

Further....personally....I probably value my participation in the league more than CB, but if I had to choose it would be tough.  Being associated with a league that got shut down isn't something I want to do.  That last thing was embarrassing and we need to stay as far away from it as possible.

I move to just table this idea for now. The idea is out there. Send ideas/opinions to the commish, but we've hashed it out for now.

I want to get back to trading...maybe make an offer on Vonleh.

[LarBrd33]

There's probably a dozen rule suggestions and only one has anything to do with gm behavior. I'd love to see who is going to vote against the behavior clause. Lol.

The rest of the suggestions will have to do with small details... Like when offseason trading is opened, language clarification on when we can trade future picks,  an amendment to the 75 missed game rule and how it impacts traded picks, whether or not we should abolish adjusted standings, whether or not we should switch to a h2h league, amendments to gm activity demands (such as if we demand every trade gets a response), change suggestions for our lotto, whether we should consider expansion, whether we should change our scoring system, what our official league name should be, etc.

There will be plenty of pros and cons for every single rule suggestion.  For example, on Harry's suggestion that we make gm activity even more mandatory, I don't personally believe every single trade needs a response... And this is coming from someone who sends a ton of trade offers.  It's fine if some trades get ignored.  That's just my opinion though. We should vote on it.

We could create dozens of individual threads on yahoo and hope that every single rule gets voted on by every single gm, but that's an unrealistic expectation. The yahoo threads are muddled and confusing.

Instead, how about we discuss all of the pros and cons on a rule suggestion thread.  We can suggest as many rules as we want. We can make all our voices heard on why certain rules should or shouldn't be changed/added. 

Then, shortly before the season, someone other than myself (on account of my history of being Internet bullied and harassed) should put all of them on one large webform ballot for one large vote that can be sent out to all 20 league members.  It would look something like this:

#1 - Ammend GM activity rule
Current language:  "6. GM activity is vital. GMs who are inactive without a roster move, post, or other demonstrable proof of logging on and checking one?s lineup for 7 straight days are issued a warning. A second warning is grounds for replacement in the league. 14 straight days of inactivity is also grounds for replacement."
Ammendment suggestion: "6. GM activity is vital. GMs who are inactive without a roster move, post, trade response, or other demonstrable proof of logging on and checking one?s lineup for 7 straight days are issued a warning. A second warning is grounds for replacement in the league. 14 straight days of inactivity is also grounds for replacement.  GM's are also required to respond to trades during the offseason.
Pros:  Requiring trade responses will assure that every single trade offer is responded to. This is vital to GM activity and should be included
Cons: It's unreasonable for every single trade offer to receive a response, especially in the offseason.  GM's often receive too many offers as-is and it's perfectly acceptable to ignore bad offers.  A GM can be active without responding to every trade.

Should we Ammend? 
- checkbox for yes
- checkbox for no

#2 - Change to H2H league...

Etc...

Having everything laid out nice and organized in an efficient manner was all I was suggesting. I don't care who puts in the work to build that.  I was offering to help, but I don't want anyone to be upset... Given my history of being harassed and all.  The yahoo threads are not a viable option imo. You will get a handful of votes on each rule suggestion and it will be too confusing to follow.  Having everything on a single ballot will assure that everyone votes, we don't waste the time of casual GM's and all the key pros and cons are clearly defined.  This is less of a problem for guys like eja and myself who read literally every post... But consider the time of someone like  juggs or Bada. Their votes count but let's make it easy for them to vote on everything.

I get the ol "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. I've been here for two seasons and I've yet to see a single ammendment suggestion get an effective vote. They have been lost in the muddled yahoo forums and ignored.  It's broke.  Fix it.

[Birdman]

is the roster and draft order updated?

[LarBrd33]

Harry read my post above.  To be clear, I'm in no way suggesting I'd be overseeing the vote. I'm talking about building the webform and filling it out (see above example). I have more free time than most.  I set up the offseason tracking sheet this year, because I had the time to do it (it's just busy work. I had to load every roster page and manually type in the names on a spreadsheet)... But when I was done setting it up, I sent it to byennie and he made a copy of it that he is fully in control of.  I have no way of editing it at this point. He's got the only edit rights.

The voting thing would be similar. If someone else wants to build it, fine.  Byennie will obviously be the one who oversees the results of that vote.  I was just offering to help.  If me helping offends anyone, I'll stop helping.

[LarBrd33]

#39 available for a 2016 2nd.

[Gainesville Celtic]

We could create dozens of individual threads on yahoo and hope that every single rule gets voted on by every single gm, but that's an unrealistic expectation. The yahoo threads are muddled and confusing.

FWIW, the h2h league held a "constitutional convention" last summer (in a single thread) where we did just this -- discuss all sorts of different possible changes. The debate was useful, on point, and at times at odds. But folks did the work and no one dominated the conversation. The "positions", when there was a difference, were clear after 1 post usually. No need for 8,402 word replies.

They were each then given a single "thread" for voting once we got to Yahoo! All but 1 of the six votes got (IIRC) 18 or 19 votes.

So it's not unrealistic. In fact I know with some self-restraint, discipline and a little togetherness that we could do that here.

All that said, this process needs to be led by the commissioner, Byennie, and no on else.