Author Topic: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??  (Read 20572 times)

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Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2015, 11:20:27 AM »

Offline gpap

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Other than the KG and Ray deals, what other trades has he made that he's "won"?

Comments like this are just silly.

2/19/04- Ainge takes on some fairly minimal salary and ends up getting a future first for his trouble.  That first turns out to be Tony Allen, who had a lot of solid years in Boston

2/8/05 - Ainge flipped the corpse of Jiri Welsch to Cleveland for a future first

6/28/06 - Ainge gives up a heavily protected future pick for the rights to Rajon Rondo, who you may remember was an all-star caliber PG for the C's for roughly half a decade.

2/18-10 - Ainge flipped a bunch of garbage to NYK for Nate Robinson, who played a pretty important part in the 2010 NBA finals run.

7/12/13 - Gave up Pierce and Garnett and got a treasure trove of unprotected draft picks in return.

Jury is still out on this one. We have no clue how valuable those picks are going to be and if they're not valuable (in other words not in the lottery) then we gave up two hall of famers for a bunch of garbage.

Also, the other moves you mentioned are very small scale moves that literally no one knows or remembers. Also 3 of the moves you referenced happened 9-11 years ago. I am talking about larger scale trades that have happened post KG. Picking up Nate was good but then Ainge traded him a year later. And dare I even get into the Nate and Perk trade and how that worked out……. ???

In return we got one of the most awful players I've ever seen in Jeff Green who contributed NOTHING.

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2015, 11:23:59 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Isaiah Thomas is a notch above guys like Nate Robinson (in his prime) and Lou Williams, but he's still just a sparkplug guy who you want coming off your bench, not as a centerpiece of your team.

I really like watching him, but I would discourage any notion that he's a core piece of this team.  Ainge picked him up because he was a bargain and he's exactly the kind of player that can help a contending team get to the next level by making a bench unit lethal.
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Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2015, 11:27:05 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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We need to get to the point where any top 10-15 type player could look at us and think, if I went there I could win a title.


Asset acquisition is great, but it also has diminishing returns.  Part of finding the exciting young players is continuing to till the soil to churn up fresh earth.  In other words, trade off the players who have topped out at "just another guy" level.

This is the key: Danny's current assets are not diminishing in value. The return is ascending.
 

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2015, 11:44:44 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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We need to get to the point where any top 10-15 type player could look at us and think, if I went there I could win a title.


Asset acquisition is great, but it also has diminishing returns.  Part of finding the exciting young players is continuing to till the soil to churn up fresh earth.  In other words, trade off the players who have topped out at "just another guy" level.

This is the key: Danny's current assets are not diminishing in value. The return is ascending.

I think the value of Bradley and Sullinger / Olynyk is probably as high it will ever be.  The same is probably true of Zeller (though due to positional scarcity at center, I'm OK w/ keeping Zeller).

The value of Rozier, Young, Hunter, and Mickey will remain low or a complete question mark, however, unless the way is cleared so that they can get enough playing time to show something.  Smart will need to get gradually increasing minutes to raise his value, also.
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Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2015, 11:58:35 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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Other than the KG and Ray deals, what other trades has he made that he's "won"?

Comments like this are just silly.

2/19/04- Ainge takes on some fairly minimal salary and ends up getting a future first for his trouble.  That first turns out to be Tony Allen, who had a lot of solid years in Boston

2/8/05 - Ainge flipped the corpse of Jiri Welsch to Cleveland for a future first

6/28/06 - Ainge gives up a heavily protected future pick for the rights to Rajon Rondo, who you may remember was an all-star caliber PG for the C's for roughly half a decade.

2/18-10 - Ainge flipped a bunch of garbage to NYK for Nate Robinson, who played a pretty important part in the 2010 NBA finals run.

7/12/13 - Gave up Pierce and Garnett and got a treasure trove of unprotected draft picks in return.

Jury is still out on this one. We have no clue how valuable those picks are going to be and if they're not valuable (in other words not in the lottery) then we gave up two hall of famers for a bunch of garbage.

Also, the other moves you mentioned are very small scale moves that literally no one knows or remembers. Also 3 of the moves you referenced happened 9-11 years ago. I am talking about larger scale trades that have happened post KG. Picking up Nate was good but then Ainge traded him a year later. And dare I even get into the Nate and Perk trade and how that worked out……. ???

In return we got one of the most awful players I've ever seen in Jeff Green who contributed NOTHING.

The Nets trade was clearly a huge win for Ainge. He got a number of unprotected 1st round picks and a trade exception for two old guys who were leaving anyway. Most of the league was offering at most 1 late or protected pick for this guys because they knew they were almost done and out of Boston soon. The fact that he got what he got from the Nets was shocking. The lack of success the Nets had with KG and Pierce just reaffirms that even if all of those picks end up being 25-30, which won't happen, it was a huge win. We already got James Young out of it, used he trade exception to get Zeller, and still have a stockpile of picks which have a legitimate chance to become lottery picks.

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2015, 12:02:16 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Jury is still out on this one. We have no clue how valuable those picks are going to be and if they're not valuable (in other words not in the lottery) then we gave up two hall of famers for a bunch of garbage.

Also, the other moves you mentioned are very small scale moves that literally no one knows or remembers. Also 3 of the moves you referenced happened 9-11 years ago. I am talking about larger scale trades that have happened post KG. Picking up Nate was good but then Ainge traded him a


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oy6DwHAi70

He has won plenty but your dislike of him has clearly clouded your perceptions.   There is a reason other GMs are scared to deal with him.   GM consistently identify him as one of the best out there, though after this off season, I am inclined to think Pop and SA have the best GM.

It takes understanding of the salary cap, to understand the depth of some of his moves.   If you shallow measure them by player acquisition and can't see beyond that then I feel for you.


December 18, 2014: Traded Dwight Powell and Rajon Rondo to the Dallas Mavericks for Jae Crowder, Jameer Nelson, Brandan Wright, a 2015 1st round draft pick and a 2016 2nd round draft pick. (2015 pick is conditional. Boston also receives $13M trade exception.)

January 9, 2015: Traded Brandan Wright to the Phoenix Suns for a 2015 1st round draft pick (MIN 1st-Rd Pick was later selected). (The 1st round pick is top-12 protected in both 2015 and 2016. If the pick is still held in 2017 it will become two 2nd-round picks.)

January 12, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Jeff Green to the Memphis Grizzlies; the Memphis Grizzlies traded Tayshaun Prince and a future 1st round pick to the Boston Celtics; the Memphis Grizzlies traded Quincy Pondexter and a 2015 2nd round draft pick to the New Orleans Pelicans; the New Orleans Pelicans traded Austin Rivers to the Boston Celtics; and the New Orleans Pelicans traded Russ Smith to the Memphis Grizzlies. (Memphis will receive a traded player exception.)

January 13, 2015: Traded Jameer Nelson to the Denver Nuggets for Nate Robinson.

January 15, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Austin Rivers to the Los Angeles Clippers; the Los Angeles Clippers traded Chris Douglas-Roberts and a 2017 2nd round draft pick to the Boston Celtics; the Los Angeles Clippers traded Reggie Bullock to the Phoenix Suns; and the Phoenix Suns traded Shavlik Randolph to the Boston Celtics.

January 23, 2015: Signed Andre Dawkins to a 10-day contract.

February 19, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Marcus Thornton and a 2016 1st round draft pick to the Phoenix Suns; the Boston Celtics traded Tayshaun Prince to the Detroit Pistons; the Detroit Pistons traded Gigi Datome and Jonas Jerebko to the Boston Celtics; and the Phoenix Suns traded Isaiah Thomas to the Boston Celtics. (PHO 2016 1st round pick received from BOS is CLE's pick and is top-10 protected.)

Lots of picks in these trades, that will someday be players only then can we truly evaluate them.  The brilliance is that almost all of them helped us slightly or got something for a guy who was no longer in our plans without giving up much.   
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 12:09:31 PM by Celtics4ever »

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2015, 12:10:01 PM »

Offline JHTruth

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This was the summer Ainge needed to make something happen IMHO.

1. We can forget about free agency next year. If we can't land a single top FA when we're one of a handful of teams with cap space this summer, imagine next year when virtually every team in the league will have near max space on hand.

2. Our players are probably at their max value right now. Coming off a nice little playoff run. We got some great seasons out of guys like Crowder, KO, IT. Even Sully probably had his best season to date. What are the chances all these guys can repeat last year? That Sully can remotely stay in shape? That KO will toughen up? That IT will be the player he was during the end of the season and not the ballhog he was in the playoffs? That James Young remains tantalizing potential instead of the one-armed bench player we all know he is?

3. Our picks were at max value. The Nets are not going to tank. They have zero reason to and every reason to avoid it. Really think the Russian dude and Billy King want to deal with the embarrassment of trading high lotto picks for one season of KG and PP? They'll spend the dough to stay above water, let's be honest. And we've proven we won't tank. These picks are going to continue to decrease in value as teams see that they're going to be mid to late-first rounders.

Danny, Stevens, Wyc and Co. blew it this season and off-season, there's simply no question about it.

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2015, 12:21:25 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Other than the KG and Ray deals, what other trades has he made that he's "won"?

Comments like this are just silly.

2/19/04- Ainge takes on some fairly minimal salary and ends up getting a future first for his trouble.  That first turns out to be Tony Allen, who had a lot of solid years in Boston

2/8/05 - Ainge flipped the corpse of Jiri Welsch to Cleveland for a future first

6/28/06 - Ainge gives up a heavily protected future pick for the rights to Rajon Rondo, who you may remember was an all-star caliber PG for the C's for roughly half a decade.

2/18-10 - Ainge flipped a bunch of garbage to NYK for Nate Robinson, who played a pretty important part in the 2010 NBA finals run.

7/12/13 - Gave up Pierce and Garnett and got a treasure trove of unprotected draft picks in return.

Jury is still out on this one. We have no clue how valuable those picks are going to be and if they're not valuable (in other words not in the lottery) then we gave up two hall of famers for a bunch of garbage.

Also, the other moves you mentioned are very small scale moves that literally no one knows or remembers. Also 3 of the moves you referenced happened 9-11 years ago. I am talking about larger scale trades that have happened post KG. Picking up Nate was good but then Ainge traded him a year later. And dare I even get into the Nate and Perk trade and how that worked out……. ???

In return we got one of the most awful players I've ever seen in Jeff Green who contributed NOTHING.
Post KG has only existed for 2 years.

As far as I can tell Ainge has "won" every single trade he has been a part of "post KG"

and he has made a lot

Rondo trade
Green trade
Prince trade
TE for Zeller + Thornton + 1st
1st + Thornton for Thomas

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Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2015, 12:30:36 PM »

Offline gpap

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Quote
Jury is still out on this one. We have no clue how valuable those picks are going to be and if they're not valuable (in other words not in the lottery) then we gave up two hall of famers for a bunch of garbage.

Also, the other moves you mentioned are very small scale moves that literally no one knows or remembers. Also 3 of the moves you referenced happened 9-11 years ago. I am talking about larger scale trades that have happened post KG. Picking up Nate was good but then Ainge traded him a


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oy6DwHAi70

He has won plenty but your dislike of him has clearly clouded your perceptions.   There is a reason other GMs are scared to deal with him.   GM consistently identify him as one of the best out there, though after this off season, I am inclined to think Pop and SA have the best GM.

It takes understanding of the salary cap, to understand the depth of some of his moves.   If you shallow measure them by player acquisition and can't see beyond that then I feel for you.


December 18, 2014: Traded Dwight Powell and Rajon Rondo to the Dallas Mavericks for Jae Crowder, Jameer Nelson, Brandan Wright, a 2015 1st round draft pick and a 2016 2nd round draft pick. (2015 pick is conditional. Boston also receives $13M trade exception.)

January 9, 2015: Traded Brandan Wright to the Phoenix Suns for a 2015 1st round draft pick (MIN 1st-Rd Pick was later selected). (The 1st round pick is top-12 protected in both 2015 and 2016. If the pick is still held in 2017 it will become two 2nd-round picks.)

January 12, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Jeff Green to the Memphis Grizzlies; the Memphis Grizzlies traded Tayshaun Prince and a future 1st round pick to the Boston Celtics; the Memphis Grizzlies traded Quincy Pondexter and a 2015 2nd round draft pick to the New Orleans Pelicans; the New Orleans Pelicans traded Austin Rivers to the Boston Celtics; and the New Orleans Pelicans traded Russ Smith to the Memphis Grizzlies. (Memphis will receive a traded player exception.)

January 13, 2015: Traded Jameer Nelson to the Denver Nuggets for Nate Robinson.

January 15, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Austin Rivers to the Los Angeles Clippers; the Los Angeles Clippers traded Chris Douglas-Roberts and a 2017 2nd round draft pick to the Boston Celtics; the Los Angeles Clippers traded Reggie Bullock to the Phoenix Suns; and the Phoenix Suns traded Shavlik Randolph to the Boston Celtics.

January 23, 2015: Signed Andre Dawkins to a 10-day contract.

February 19, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Marcus Thornton and a 2016 1st round draft pick to the Phoenix Suns; the Boston Celtics traded Tayshaun Prince to the Detroit Pistons; the Detroit Pistons traded Gigi Datome and Jonas Jerebko to the Boston Celtics; and the Phoenix Suns traded Isaiah Thomas to the Boston Celtics. (PHO 2016 1st round pick received from BOS is CLE's pick and is top-10 protected.)

Lots of picks in these trades, that will someday be players only then can we truly evaluate them.  The brilliance is that almost all of them helped us slightly or got something for a guy who was no longer in our plans without giving up much.

Yeah that Andre Dawkins pick up was HUGE. I still haven't settled down from the excitement of that move (not to mention I don't know who the hell Andre Dawkins is.)

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2015, 12:32:52 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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3. Our picks were at max value. The Nets are not going to tank. They have zero reason to and every reason to avoid it. Really think the Russian dude and Billy King want to deal with the embarrassment of trading high lotto picks for one season of KG and PP? They'll spend the dough to stay above water, let's be honest. And we've proven we won't tank. These picks are going to continue to decrease in value as teams see that they're going to be mid to late-first rounders.

Prokhorov is trying to cut salary to lower the luxury tax bill and possibly sell the team, so while they're not going to try and bottom out, they will gladly choose a lower tax over a few more wins.  The picks are a sunk cost at this point, there's no sense in trying to keep them high out of embarrassment or whatever.  That's why Brooklyn has reportedly been discussing dumping Joe Johnson to Cleveland for salary relief.


People also forget that we've already cashed in one of the picks we received in the KG/Pierce trade, on James Young.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 12:57:36 PM by foulweatherfan »

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2015, 12:58:59 PM »

Offline GC003332

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Some Celtics fans waiting for 'Fireworks'
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0YIJQ1jgEI

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2015, 01:06:52 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Ainge with his hoard of assets:



More like this:



Since all our "assets" are borderline worthless.

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2015, 01:16:57 PM »

Offline Timdawgg

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It's like there is a certain percent of posters here who seem to really think that every year we don't radically improve it's because Ainge is a moron. It's not a video game people, you can't just decided to trade for stars, click a few buttons and in 10 minutes you have them.

I expect bold and creative moves that advance the rebuild in some way.  At least something like the Zeller trade last year. 

Ainge has basically just pressed pause.  He added a couple of large expiring contracts, basically, who will help the team maintain around 40 wins.  Content to be in pretty much the same position a year from now.  I don't see the point in that.

The Celtics have a favorable cap situation and too much young talent to take an intentional step backwards.  In the absence of any good deals to be made, "pressing pause" is much better than making panic moves that lock the Celtics into their current level.

I actually prefer the word Coach Stevens used rather than the saying,  'pressing pause'.

Continuity.

This team played great after IT4's arrival. Keep it going. You upgraded Bass with a stronger defender whose versatile and can rebound. Great upgrade. Now see what the rookies can add.

I agree, so many people discount all the progress that was made at the end of last season. 3 guys made a great impact after the trades and we now get them for a full year. That alone should make us better. IT was great after the trade, Crowder was a nice add and then a beast in the playoffs playing against Lebron, Jerebko also played great in limited minutes. 

Add in general improvements in all the young guys games, Smart, Bradley made some strides last year. I would have to guess we are going to see some significant improvements in at least one of KO & Sullinger. Think of how bad a playoffs Bass had..sure he was solid all year but you can't tell me Amir won't be an improvement. Add in the chemistry that we have seen them all have under BS for a full year and even with a tougher east I can't see how this team wins less than 40 games. Sure we won't win a championship but I would guess at least 5-6 of our guys will improve their value as an asset for future trade or even standing pat and trying to get a high level FA next year to add to an improving squad. I didn't even mention the rookies or James Young who could make a positive impact. I don't see the Celts regressing at all.
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Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2015, 01:21:02 PM »

Offline freshinthehouse

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Jury is still out on this one. We have no clue how valuable those picks are going to be and if they're not valuable (in other words not in the lottery) then we gave up two hall of famers for a bunch of garbage.

We traded two hall of famers that were at the end of their run.  They are now complimentary players.  Who would they complement in Boston if they were still here? 

And even if Ainge whiffs on all of the Brooklyn picks I'd still consider it a good trade.  Lets say we traded the rights to Avery Bradley for 5 unprotected first rounders over the next 10 years.  On the flip side, if we traded Marcus Smart for a heavily protected 2nd rounder, that would be an awful trade, even that pick ended up being a superstar player. IMO you have to separate the trade from the draft.

Quote
Also, the other moves you mentioned are very small scale moves that literally no one knows or remembers.

If someone claims they are a C's fan and doesn't remember any of those moves I would assume they only follow the team very casually and aren't really someone that would have a worthwhile opinion on Danny Ainge or the Celtics in general.

Quote
Also 3 of the moves you referenced happened 9-11 years ago.

I didn't bother posting any of the newer moves that were a success (trading Pierce TPE for a 1st and Zeller, trading Thornton and a 1st for IT2, etc) because I had already proven my point that Ainge has certainly made more good trades than the original Allen and Garnett trades. 

It's okay to admit you are wrong on this subject.  No one will think less of you.

Quote
I am talking about larger scale trades that have happened post KG. Picking up Nate was good but then Ainge traded him a year later. And dare I even get into the Nate and Perk trade and how that worked out……. ???

How many large scale trades do you expect a team to make?  It's not like a team does multiple huge trades a year.  IMO the only large trade that DA goofed up on was the trade that brought Antoine Walker back.  It served no purpose but to appease fairweather fans.  We only gave up 1 first rounder, but I'd rather have that 1st rounder than some meaningless 1st round exit.

As far as the Perk/Green trade, I can't fault Ainge for doing it.  We gave up a center coming off a bad knee injury that was about to become wildly overpaid on the open market.  And we ended up getting a young solid swing and a future LAC 1st rounder.  It was just bad luck that the Clips managed to stumble into Chris Paul.  And unlike some C's fans I haven't fooled myself into thinking that we would've beat the Heat in 2011 even with Perk.  Miami was definitely the better team by then.  Defintely a risk worth taking IMO.

Re: What The Hell Is Ainge Waiting For??
« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2015, 01:30:29 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Jury is still out on this one. We have no clue how valuable those picks are going to be and if they're not valuable (in other words not in the lottery) then we gave up two hall of famers for a bunch of garbage.

Also, the other moves you mentioned are very small scale moves that literally no one knows or remembers. Also 3 of the moves you referenced happened 9-11 years ago. I am talking about larger scale trades that have happened post KG. Picking up Nate was good but then Ainge traded him a


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oy6DwHAi70

He has won plenty but your dislike of him has clearly clouded your perceptions.   There is a reason other GMs are scared to deal with him.   GM consistently identify him as one of the best out there, though after this off season, I am inclined to think Pop and SA have the best GM.

It takes understanding of the salary cap, to understand the depth of some of his moves.   If you shallow measure them by player acquisition and can't see beyond that then I feel for you.


December 18, 2014: Traded Dwight Powell and Rajon Rondo to the Dallas Mavericks for Jae Crowder, Jameer Nelson, Brandan Wright, a 2015 1st round draft pick and a 2016 2nd round draft pick. (2015 pick is conditional. Boston also receives $13M trade exception.)

January 9, 2015: Traded Brandan Wright to the Phoenix Suns for a 2015 1st round draft pick (MIN 1st-Rd Pick was later selected). (The 1st round pick is top-12 protected in both 2015 and 2016. If the pick is still held in 2017 it will become two 2nd-round picks.)

January 12, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Jeff Green to the Memphis Grizzlies; the Memphis Grizzlies traded Tayshaun Prince and a future 1st round pick to the Boston Celtics; the Memphis Grizzlies traded Quincy Pondexter and a 2015 2nd round draft pick to the New Orleans Pelicans; the New Orleans Pelicans traded Austin Rivers to the Boston Celtics; and the New Orleans Pelicans traded Russ Smith to the Memphis Grizzlies. (Memphis will receive a traded player exception.)

January 13, 2015: Traded Jameer Nelson to the Denver Nuggets for Nate Robinson.

January 15, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Austin Rivers to the Los Angeles Clippers; the Los Angeles Clippers traded Chris Douglas-Roberts and a 2017 2nd round draft pick to the Boston Celtics; the Los Angeles Clippers traded Reggie Bullock to the Phoenix Suns; and the Phoenix Suns traded Shavlik Randolph to the Boston Celtics.

January 23, 2015: Signed Andre Dawkins to a 10-day contract.

February 19, 2015: As part of a 3-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Marcus Thornton and a 2016 1st round draft pick to the Phoenix Suns; the Boston Celtics traded Tayshaun Prince to the Detroit Pistons; the Detroit Pistons traded Gigi Datome and Jonas Jerebko to the Boston Celtics; and the Phoenix Suns traded Isaiah Thomas to the Boston Celtics. (PHO 2016 1st round pick received from BOS is CLE's pick and is top-10 protected.)

Lots of picks in these trades, that will someday be players only then can we truly evaluate them.  The brilliance is that almost all of them helped us slightly or got something for a guy who was no longer in our plans without giving up much.

Yeah that Andre Dawkins pick up was HUGE. I still haven't settled down from the excitement of that move (not to mention I don't know who the hell Andre Dawkins is.)
I could be wrong but I think that this is a list of every move Ainge made over that span of time.

I think the fact that the only bad move you can find is signing a guy to a 10-day contract pretty much confirms that you are wrong in this argument.
Quote from: George W. Bush
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