Author Topic: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15  (Read 88785 times)

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Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #585 on: July 07, 2015, 12:52:14 AM »

Offline cltc5

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If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

Yeah, I think it's a LITTLE early to claim he's no better in his second year. He's played in 1 summer league game and scored 12 points.

Yes, but last year he didn't even play in the summer league - he might have scored 12 in his first SL game last year too.

Just looking at his game in general though, I don't see anything that I didn't see at the start of last year.  Still looks really bad defensively, still not much of a passer / ball handler.  Still didn't do a fantastic job gettign tot he basket.  Still looked lost and at times lazy out there. 

He's been in the league for a year, but I can't see any signs of obvious development.

I watched Smart play and the improvements in his aggressiveness, confidence and his ability to get to the basket are huge - night and day compared to his SL showing last year.

There were at least 2-3 guys on this team (Rozier, Mickey and arguably Hunter) who all IMO played significantly better than Young did on both ends of the floor - and not one of those guys has played a single NBA game yet.  That kinda concerns me...

Spot on!

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #586 on: July 07, 2015, 12:55:05 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?


Smart was very, very aggressive for much of the game.  Some of that involved taking deep pull-up three pointers, but really I think it's a mindset thing for him. Attack, attack, attack.  He got to the line 13 times.  You can't complain about that.
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Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #587 on: July 07, 2015, 01:14:03 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

I'm talking recent times here, like past 10-15 years.

You might be right and there might be a stack of them, but I can't think of any.

From what I can see the only thing Young is especially good at is shooting, but even as a shooter he's not spectacular - just good.  It's not like he's Ray Allen 2.0 or anything.

Sure.  "Great" is a loaded word, but here are some guys who stunk/couldn't get off the bench in year one, didn't do much better in year 2, and then became valuable players that most C's fans would want/have wanted on the team.  Also, I will list first the player's age as a rookie.  Keep in mind Young was 19, and will be younger than most or all of the players listed.

Kyle Lowry (20) -- Barely played his rookie year (10 games), and shot under 37% from the field.  Year 2-3 he shot 25% from 3.  Year 4 he improved to 27%.  Since that time he's improved to a good shooter, and has upped his career average to 35%, and even made an All-Star game.  His passing stats were always decent, but as Young doesn't compare since he's not a point guard, that's not fair.  His shooting improved from bad to very good, beginning in year 5.

Arron Afflalo (22) - He shot 20% from 3 his rookie year, in way more playing time than Young had.  He improved his 3-point shooting in year 2 to 40%, but saw his PER tumble from 10.2 to 8.9.  (Young's PER last year was 8.7).  He's since turned into a valuable wing, albeit not a star.

Jeff Teague (21) - Ddin't get much playing time and struggled during his rookie year.  Under 41% from the field, and 22% from 3.  Took his step forward in season 2.

DeMarre Carroll (23) - Stunk his first three years in the league, with poor shooting percentages, little playing time, and PERs of 8.5, 8.7, and 11.0, respectively.

John Wall (20) - Just looking at shooting stats, he was not good.  eFG% of under .43 each of two years -- managed to go 3-42 from 3 his second year. PER okay because he did other point-guardy things Young isn't asked to do.

Anyway, there's a few, from the 2006-2011 drafts.  I'm sure there are more -- just aimed for guards/wings like Young.

John Wall averaged 15 / 7 / 4 with 1.8 steals Per 36 (and that's rounding down) in his rookie year and showcased elite athletic ability - he was never a guy who struggled to earn playing time.  His potential was obvious from the start, regardless of his shooting ability.


Kyle Lowry and Jeff Teague struggled to get playing time and put up pretty mediocre Per-36 numbers offensively, but both showed signs of being multi dimensional players.  Both guys were skilled passers and ball handlers, as well as being solid defenders and rebounders.  When a guy shows that type of versatility, I'd give them a second chance too.

Afflalo and Carroll are closer comparisons, and neither of those guys is even close to being a great player.  Even in those cases, both Carroll and Afflalo were known as being solid defensive players (which James Young is NOT known for) and good defenders tend to always find a place on teams.

Young only played 31 games last year (couldn't even get on the court aside from garbage time), and in those games he averaged 11 points, 5 rebounds and 1.4 assists per 36 while shooting 35% / 26% / 55% and his defense was horrible. 

I know it's not an especially popular opinion, but I just don't think that Young will even be much better than E'Twaun Moore, in all honesty.

I'm going to cop a lot of flak for this, but I honestly don't see Young being any better "right now" than Fab Melo was in his rookie year.  The difference is that at least Fab Melo had some elite attributes (size, shot blocking) and may have had some hope of carving a niche as a pure role player...wheras Young hasn't really got anything. 

His shooting is really NOT good enough to the point where he can get by as a role player based purely on his shooting ability.  For you be a guy who can do nothing but shoot, and still get minutes, you need to be a Kyle Kover / JJ Reddick / Steve Kerr caliber shooter.  Young is more of an Mikeal Pietrus caliber shooter.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 01:38:54 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #588 on: July 07, 2015, 01:35:29 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

I'm talking recent times here, like past 10-15 years.

You might be right and there might be a stack of them, but I can't think of any.

From what I can see the only thing Young is especially good at is shooting, but even as a shooter he's not spectacular - just good.  It's not like he's Ray Allen 2.0 or anything.

Sure.  "Great" is a loaded word, but here are some guys who stunk/couldn't get off the bench in year one, didn't do much better in year 2, and then became valuable players that most C's fans would want/have wanted on the team.  Also, I will list first the player's age as a rookie.  Keep in mind Young was 19, and will be younger than most or all of the players listed.

Kyle Lowry (20) -- Barely played his rookie year (10 games), and shot under 37% from the field.  Year 2-3 he shot 25% from 3.  Year 4 he improved to 27%.  Since that time he's improved to a good shooter, and has upped his career average to 35%, and even made an All-Star game.  His passing stats were always decent, but as Young doesn't compare since he's not a point guard, that's not fair.  His shooting improved from bad to very good, beginning in year 5.

Arron Afflalo (22) - He shot 20% from 3 his rookie year, in way more playing time than Young had.  He improved his 3-point shooting in year 2 to 40%, but saw his PER tumble from 10.2 to 8.9.  (Young's PER last year was 8.7).  He's since turned into a valuable wing, albeit not a star.

Jeff Teague (21) - Ddin't get much playing time and struggled during his rookie year.  Under 41% from the field, and 22% from 3.  Took his step forward in season 2.

DeMarre Carroll (23) - Stunk his first three years in the league, with poor shooting percentages, little playing time, and PERs of 8.5, 8.7, and 11.0, respectively.

John Wall (20) - Just looking at shooting stats, he was not good.  eFG% of under .43 each of two years -- managed to go 3-42 from 3 his second year. PER okay because he did other point-guardy things Young isn't asked to do.

Anyway, there's a few, from the 2006-2011 drafts.  I'm sure there are more -- just aimed for guards/wings like Young.

Not really the same though.

Kyle Lowry struggled offensively in his rookie year and didn't play much, but he still showed flashes of his ability as an all round guy - he averaged 11.5 / 6.5 / 6.5 plus 2.9 steals Per-36 in his rookie year.  He also shot 38% from three and 89% from the foul line.

Afflalo is not even close to a great player, but even he was able to at least convince the coaches he was worthy of playing time - he plays 13 MPG over 75 games in his rookie year and averaged 10 points, 5 rebounds and 2 assists Per 36. .

Same deal with Teague, he only played 10 MPG, but got on the court almost every night (71 games played) and averated 11 / 6 / 3.5 along with 1.7 steals per 36. 

DeMarre Carroll is still nothing special - he's about on par with Crowder and is barely starting calibre.

John Wall averaged 15 / 7 / 4 with 1.8 steals Per 36 (and that's rounding down) in his rookie year - I don't care what your shooting numbers are like, any rookie who puts up those stats has potential.  Not even nearly comparable with Young's situation.   

Young only played 31 games last year (couldn't even get on the court aside from garbage time), and in those games he averaged 11 points, 5 rebounds and 1.4 assists per 36 while shooting 35% / 26% / 55%. 

That puts him closest to Afflalo and Carrol out of all the guys listed, those three, but even then Afflalo at least shot 78% on free throws and managed to earn more than 1/3 of a season in playing time.  Plus Afflalo is by no means even close to a great player.  I'd say he's a borderline starter - he's basically put up Avery Bradley stats his entire career.  He's a solid stater, but that's about it.  Plus Afflalo and Carrol were both known as good defensive players, which always helps to earn you the benefit of the doubt...and which Young is certainly not

Teague and Lowry are fair arguments, but both of those guys showed a lot more versatility at
that time than Young (who's only real still ATM is shooting).

I know it's not an especially popular opinion, but I just don't think that Young will even be much better than E'Twaun Moore, in all honesty.
James needs to have 1 great game with the Celtic's. He did it in the D League over and over but he has a mental block or something because he can hit the NBA 3 with the best of them IMO. Its obvious after tonight that he is nervous . I hope he has the breakout game before our 2nd summer league in LV.

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #589 on: July 07, 2015, 01:35:51 AM »

Offline blink

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If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

Yeah, I think it's a LITTLE early to claim he's no better in his second year. He's played in 1 summer league game and scored 12 points.

Yes, but last year he didn't even play in the summer league - he might have scored 12 in his first SL game last year too.

Just looking at his game in general though, I don't see anything that I didn't see at the start of last year.  Still looks really bad defensively, still not much of a passer / ball handler.  Still didn't do a fantastic job gettign tot he basket.  Still looked lost and at times lazy out there. 

He's been in the league for a year, but I can't see any signs of obvious development.

I watched Smart play and the improvements in his aggressiveness, confidence and his ability to get to the basket are huge - night and day compared to his SL showing last year.

There were at least 2-3 guys on this team (Rozier, Mickey and arguably Hunter) who all IMO played significantly better than Young did on both ends of the floor - and not one of those guys has played a single NBA game yet.  That kinda concerns me...

I agree with this whole post, and especially the last paragraph.  I mean it isn't time to close the book on Young after 1 summer league game, but to me Hunter looked like he belonged and had a much greater court awareness.  Hunter seemed a bit nervous shooting the ball.  But if young can't find a way to make a bigger contribution this season, there are other guys on the team who are going to be pushing him to get back up minutes.

Also, Rozier looked smaller than I expected.  That isn't a good thing.  I like his quickness and nose for the ball, but he seemed like a small 6'2" to me. 

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #590 on: July 07, 2015, 01:36:24 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

Smart was super aggressive with not much help from his teammates, and went 12-13 from the free throw line. He definitely forced some shots, but we're talking 26 points, 8 assists, 5 rebounds, 2 steals, 1 impressive block, and 2 turnovers (one which was an offensive foul). Hard to find fault with that IMO, although lots of folks here are doing their best. 26 points on 20 shots with zero inside help (Smart led the team in rebounds with 5), on a night when his shot wasn't falling.

It's a work in progress, but showing the ability to get to the line on a regular basis is an important step for him, and his hustle/defense was outstanding as usual.
Did Smart attempt to attack the basket or was he just launching shots? 

8 assists/2 turnovers is encouraging.  Would love to see him develop into a more complete player.  Good to see him making progress. 

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #591 on: July 07, 2015, 01:38:30 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

A look at Smart's FTA should answer that one for you - I think he hit over 10 free throws.  Was getting to the paint at will. His finishing ability once he got the has been questioned by some, but he was driving like a beast.

Exum looked...ok.

He looked like a solid NBA player, didn't see much that screamed "star potential" to me.  He still looks a bit awkward in the way he moves.

Based on Eye test alone, I felt like Smart was by far the more dominant of the two - even if the stats suggest it was much closer than that.

Good to know. 

And yeah, Smart should be better than Exum right now.  Smart had two years of NCAA basketball.  Exum is the only player in NBA history to transition directly from a foreign high school straight to the pros.  Exum's ceiling is believed to be higher.  Looks like he's showing some progress.  Last year Utah won with him in the starting lineup, but he was very passive..  He was shockingly good defensively, though (read some article about how his advanced defensive stats were arguably better than either Smart or Nerlens Noel).  It will be interesting to see what kind of player Exum becomes long-term. 

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #592 on: July 07, 2015, 01:46:43 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

A look at Smart's FTA should answer that one for you - I think he hit over 10 free throws.  Was getting to the paint at will. His finishing ability once he got the has been questioned by some, but he was driving like a beast.

Exum looked...ok.

He looked like a solid NBA player, didn't see much that screamed "star potential" to me.  He still looks a bit awkward in the way he moves.

Based on Eye test alone, I felt like Smart was by far the more dominant of the two - even if the stats suggest it was much closer than that.

Good to know. 

And yeah, Smart should be better than Exum right now.  Smart had two years of NCAA basketball.  Exum is the only player in NBA history to transition directly from a foreign high school straight to the pros.  Exum's ceiling is believed to be higher.  Looks like he's showing some progress.  Last year Utah won with him in the starting lineup, but he was very passive..  He was shockingly good defensively, though (read some article about how his advanced defensive stats were arguably better than either Smart or Nerlens Noel).  It will be interesting to see what kind of player Exum becomes long-term.

I guess the best way to put it is that Exum looked like a 'good all rounder' type of guy - kinda like a mini Gordon Hayward / Chandler Parsons.

Marcus Smart looked like a superstar - like a Dwyane Wade or James Harden - with how he was just dominating and having his way with the defense. 

Of course this is a scale model of those guys, since we're talking about D-League / 3rd string NBA talent here haha but you get the idea

All I know is that if Smart can put up even 60% of that production (which would be 15.6 points, 4.8 assists, 3 rebounds) in the NBA this year while playing his current standard of defense...he's going to be a special player.

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #593 on: July 07, 2015, 01:48:56 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

A look at Smart's FTA should answer that one for you - I think he hit over 10 free throws.  Was getting to the paint at will. His finishing ability once he got the has been questioned by some, but he was driving like a beast.

Exum looked...ok.

He looked like a solid NBA player, didn't see much that screamed "star potential" to me.  He still looks a bit awkward in the way he moves.

Based on Eye test alone, I felt like Smart was by far the more dominant of the two - even if the stats suggest it was much closer than that.

Good to know. 

And yeah, Smart should be better than Exum right now.  Smart had two years of NCAA basketball.  Exum is the only player in NBA history to transition directly from a foreign high school straight to the pros.  Exum's ceiling is believed to be higher.  Looks like he's showing some progress.  Last year Utah won with him in the starting lineup, but he was very passive..  He was shockingly good defensively, though (read some article about how his advanced defensive stats were arguably better than either Smart or Nerlens Noel).  It will be interesting to see what kind of player Exum becomes long-term.

I guess the best way to put it is that Exum looked like a 'good all rounder' type of guy - kinda like a mini Gordon Hayward / Chandler Parsons.

Marcus Smart looked like a superstar - like a Dwyane Wade or James Harden - with how he was just dominating and having his way with the defense. 

Of course this is a scale model of those guys, since we're talking about D-League / 3rd string NBA talent here haha but you get the idea
Funny... I just started watching highlights and that's really not how anyone is portraying it.  They said Smart was good, but Exum asserted his will in the second half and the Jazz ran away with it.  I do see that Exum hurt his ankle late, though.  That's a bummer.  Would have liked to see him play more.

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #594 on: July 07, 2015, 01:59:50 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

A look at Smart's FTA should answer that one for you - I think he hit over 10 free throws.  Was getting to the paint at will. His finishing ability once he got the has been questioned by some, but he was driving like a beast.

Exum looked...ok.

He looked like a solid NBA player, didn't see much that screamed "star potential" to me.  He still looks a bit awkward in the way he moves.

Based on Eye test alone, I felt like Smart was by far the more dominant of the two - even if the stats suggest it was much closer than that.

Good to know. 

And yeah, Smart should be better than Exum right now.  Smart had two years of NCAA basketball.  Exum is the only player in NBA history to transition directly from a foreign high school straight to the pros.  Exum's ceiling is believed to be higher.  Looks like he's showing some progress.  Last year Utah won with him in the starting lineup, but he was very passive..  He was shockingly good defensively, though (read some article about how his advanced defensive stats were arguably better than either Smart or Nerlens Noel).  It will be interesting to see what kind of player Exum becomes long-term.

I guess the best way to put it is that Exum looked like a 'good all rounder' type of guy - kinda like a mini Gordon Hayward / Chandler Parsons.

Marcus Smart looked like a superstar - like a Dwyane Wade or James Harden - with how he was just dominating and having his way with the defense. 

Of course this is a scale model of those guys, since we're talking about D-League / 3rd string NBA talent here haha but you get the idea
Funny... I just started watching highlights and that's really not how anyone is portraying it.  They said Smart was good, but Exum asserted his will in the second half and the Jazz ran away with it.  I do see that Exum hurt his ankle late, though.  That's a bummer.  Would have liked to see him play more.

Exum played well, no doubt about it.

He seems to have more of a 'quiet' style of play though - where it looks like he has 12 points, but then you check the stat sheet later and he had 20.  It's hard to explain, but watching Exum play I didn't see him displaying a huge amount of explosiveness, power, great ball handling, etc in his game - I have questions as to whether the looks he got tonight will be there when he gets to the NBA.

Exum seemed (to me) like he was still a bit cautious and laid back - didn't play with that extreme intensity.  Played a solid game fundamentally - got the the basket a few times, hit a few jumpers, made some nice passes.  But I just didn't see that "character" or "killer instinct".   Undoubtedly a skilled kid, I think he could be a nice player. 

Smart on the other hand (at least to my own eye test) just looked so explosive and so powerful physically, and just looked so confident.  If felt like there was not a single defender on that court who could keep Smart in front of them - he was blowing by everybody and getting in to the paint absolutely at will.  This guy shot something like 30% from the field and STILL had 26 points - he was just that aggressive.  If he shot even close to a reasonable percentage he'd have probably had 32-35 points.

It's not just that though - maybe it's just me, but I thought he looked far more developed in terms of both his ball handling and his passing.  He didn't seem to hesitate as much when faced with pressure, seemed quicker in his decision making and seemed like he had the confidence there all the time.

He just played with that 'swagger' that you see when you watch superstars like Kobe, Wade, etc.  Like he was the best player on the court, and he knew it.  Just so intense.

The only real cricism's for Smart are that:
1) He got to the rim at will, but at times looked like he didn't know what to do once he got there.  Ended up just trying to use his power to go straight through guys rather than drawing the D and passing it out. etc

2) He did (as mentioned by others) take a LOT of thee's - some were reasonable decisions (not highly contested and/or to beat the shot clock) while some were just poor shot selection.

Basically if Smart can develop his ability to finish around the basket and improve his shot selection, while continuing to play with this aggressiveness, then I'm calling future All-Star.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 02:05:55 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #595 on: July 07, 2015, 04:26:59 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

A look at Smart's FTA should answer that one for you - I think he hit over 10 free throws.  Was getting to the paint at will. His finishing ability once he got the has been questioned by some, but he was driving like a beast.

Exum looked...ok.

He looked like a solid NBA player, didn't see much that screamed "star potential" to me.  He still looks a bit awkward in the way he moves.

Based on Eye test alone, I felt like Smart was by far the more dominant of the two - even if the stats suggest it was much closer than that.

Good to know. 

And yeah, Smart should be better than Exum right now.  Smart had two years of NCAA basketball.  Exum is the only player in NBA history to transition directly from a foreign high school straight to the pros.  Exum's ceiling is believed to be higher.  Looks like he's showing some progress.  Last year Utah won with him in the starting lineup, but he was very passive..  He was shockingly good defensively, though (read some article about how his advanced defensive stats were arguably better than either Smart or Nerlens Noel).  It will be interesting to see what kind of player Exum becomes long-term.

I guess the best way to put it is that Exum looked like a 'good all rounder' type of guy - kinda like a mini Gordon Hayward / Chandler Parsons.

Marcus Smart looked like a superstar - like a Dwyane Wade or James Harden - with how he was just dominating and having his way with the defense. 

Of course this is a scale model of those guys, since we're talking about D-League / 3rd string NBA talent here haha but you get the idea
Funny... I just started watching highlights and that's really not how anyone is portraying it.  They said Smart was good, but Exum asserted his will in the second half and the Jazz ran away with it.  I do see that Exum hurt his ankle late, though.  That's a bummer.  Would have liked to see him play more.

Exum played well, no doubt about it.

He seems to have more of a 'quiet' style of play though - where it looks like he has 12 points, but then you check the stat sheet later and he had 20.  It's hard to explain, but watching Exum play I didn't see him displaying a huge amount of explosiveness, power, great ball handling, etc in his game - I have questions as to whether the looks he got tonight will be there when he gets to the NBA.

Exum seemed (to me) like he was still a bit cautious and laid back - didn't play with that extreme intensity.  Played a solid game fundamentally - got the the basket a few times, hit a few jumpers, made some nice passes.  But I just didn't see that "character" or "killer instinct".   Undoubtedly a skilled kid, I think he could be a nice player. 

Smart on the other hand (at least to my own eye test) just looked so explosive and so powerful physically, and just looked so confident.  If felt like there was not a single defender on that court who could keep Smart in front of them - he was blowing by everybody and getting in to the paint absolutely at will.  This guy shot something like 30% from the field and STILL had 26 points - he was just that aggressive.  If he shot even close to a reasonable percentage he'd have probably had 32-35 points.

It's not just that though - maybe it's just me, but I thought he looked far more developed in terms of both his ball handling and his passing.  He didn't seem to hesitate as much when faced with pressure, seemed quicker in his decision making and seemed like he had the confidence there all the time.

He just played with that 'swagger' that you see when you watch superstars like Kobe, Wade, etc.  Like he was the best player on the court, and he knew it.  Just so intense.

The only real cricism's for Smart are that:
1) He got to the rim at will, but at times looked like he didn't know what to do once he got there.  Ended up just trying to use his power to go straight through guys rather than drawing the D and passing it out. etc

2) He did (as mentioned by others) take a LOT of thee's - some were reasonable decisions (not highly contested and/or to beat the shot clock) while some were just poor shot selection.

Basically if Smart can develop his ability to finish around the basket and improve his shot selection, while continuing to play with this aggressiveness, then I'm calling future All-Star.
Don't forget our big men were much smaller than theirs and couldn't protect the paint or drives. They killed us on the boards and offensively took it to us. J Mickey played well but the other guys were pretty small.

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #596 on: July 07, 2015, 04:56:05 AM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Mickey needed more shots that's for sure. Why he only took 8 is beyond me, I wish they fed the hot hand more but it is SL, bigs are the last to be looked at on offense unless they are best player.

I can't really comment on much, there was good play by a few and a lot of bung play by most!
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #597 on: July 07, 2015, 06:34:18 AM »

Offline saltlover

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If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

I'm talking recent times here, like past 10-15 years.

You might be right and there might be a stack of them, but I can't think of any.

From what I can see the only thing Young is especially good at is shooting, but even as a shooter he's not spectacular - just good.  It's not like he's Ray Allen 2.0 or anything.

Sure.  "Great" is a loaded word, but here are some guys who stunk/couldn't get off the bench in year one, didn't do much better in year 2, and then became valuable players that most C's fans would want/have wanted on the team.  Also, I will list first the player's age as a rookie.  Keep in mind Young was 19, and will be younger than most or all of the players listed.

Kyle Lowry (20) -- Barely played his rookie year (10 games), and shot under 37% from the field.  Year 2-3 he shot 25% from 3.  Year 4 he improved to 27%.  Since that time he's improved to a good shooter, and has upped his career average to 35%, and even made an All-Star game.  His passing stats were always decent, but as Young doesn't compare since he's not a point guard, that's not fair.  His shooting improved from bad to very good, beginning in year 5.

Arron Afflalo (22) - He shot 20% from 3 his rookie year, in way more playing time than Young had.  He improved his 3-point shooting in year 2 to 40%, but saw his PER tumble from 10.2 to 8.9.  (Young's PER last year was 8.7).  He's since turned into a valuable wing, albeit not a star.

Jeff Teague (21) - Ddin't get much playing time and struggled during his rookie year.  Under 41% from the field, and 22% from 3.  Took his step forward in season 2.

DeMarre Carroll (23) - Stunk his first three years in the league, with poor shooting percentages, little playing time, and PERs of 8.5, 8.7, and 11.0, respectively.

John Wall (20) - Just looking at shooting stats, he was not good.  eFG% of under .43 each of two years -- managed to go 3-42 from 3 his second year. PER okay because he did other point-guardy things Young isn't asked to do.

Anyway, there's a few, from the 2006-2011 drafts.  I'm sure there are more -- just aimed for guards/wings like Young.

John Wall averaged 15 / 7 / 4 with 1.8 steals Per 36 (and that's rounding down) in his rookie year and showcased elite athletic ability - he was never a guy who struggled to earn playing time.  His potential was obvious from the start, regardless of his shooting ability.


Kyle Lowry and Jeff Teague struggled to get playing time and put up pretty mediocre Per-36 numbers offensively, but both showed signs of being multi dimensional players.  Both guys were skilled passers and ball handlers, as well as being solid defenders and rebounders.  When a guy shows that type of versatility, I'd give them a second chance too.

Afflalo and Carroll are closer comparisons, and neither of those guys is even close to being a great player.  Even in those cases, both Carroll and Afflalo were known as being solid defensive players (which James Young is NOT known for) and good defenders tend to always find a place on teams.

Young only played 31 games last year (couldn't even get on the court aside from garbage time), and in those games he averaged 11 points, 5 rebounds and 1.4 assists per 36 while shooting 35% / 26% / 55% and his defense was horrible. 

I know it's not an especially popular opinion, but I just don't think that Young will even be much better than E'Twaun Moore, in all honesty.

I'm going to cop a lot of flak for this, but I honestly don't see Young being any better "right now" than Fab Melo was in his rookie year.  The difference is that at least Fab Melo had some elite attributes (size, shot blocking) and may have had some hope of carving a niche as a pure role player...wheras Young hasn't really got anything. 

His shooting is really NOT good enough to the point where he can get by as a role player based purely on his shooting ability.  For you be a guy who can do nothing but shoot, and still get minutes, you need to be a Kyle Kover / JJ Reddick / Steve Kerr caliber shooter.  Young is more of an Mikeal Pietrus caliber shooter.

I mean, if you have your conclusion ahead of time, why ask?

Of course John Wall didn't struggle to get playing time -- the Wizards were God-awful and he was the number 1 pick.  But he couldn't shoot a lick, as his eFG% was lower than Young's -- again, he went 3-42 from 3.  That's simply terrible, and I can't imagine this board if he were a Celtic.  He made Rondo look like Ray Allen.

Same was true with Lowry -- not at all a capable shooter.  Apparently he doesn't count because he barely played, whereas Young's lack of playing time deems him unsalvageable.  Sure, he and Wall and Teague got to get assists, because they were PG instead of a wing like Young, but I said I was looking at shooting.  These were perimeter players who couldn't shoot (you're the one who defined Young as a shooter), and are now guards who are either passable to a downright weapon when scoring.

Also, I on purpose only looked at guards picked in the first round, not bigs, or 2nd-round/undradted types, because a) it would be unfair to compare a guard to a center in terms of development, and b) I was trying to avoid some player who overachieved.  I only looked at a couple of years, and it was a quick search at 1 am.

Age is a really important factor, and all of these players were older than Young.  Some several years older.  But again, if you want to believe that Young is the worst player ever, why ask for examples?  It's a waste of discussion.  So just start off the bat and say that he's the worst thing ever and no one will convince you otherwise.  It would have saved me 20 minutes.

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #598 on: July 07, 2015, 07:10:38 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

A look at Smart's FTA should answer that one for you - I think he hit over 10 free throws.  Was getting to the paint at will. His finishing ability once he got the has been questioned by some, but he was driving like a beast.

Exum looked...ok.

He looked like a solid NBA player, didn't see much that screamed "star potential" to me.  He still looks a bit awkward in the way he moves.

Based on Eye test alone, I felt like Smart was by far the more dominant of the two - even if the stats suggest it was much closer than that.

Good to know. 

And yeah, Smart should be better than Exum right now.  Smart had two years of NCAA basketball.  Exum is the only player in NBA history to transition directly from a foreign high school straight to the pros.  Exum's ceiling is believed to be higher.  Looks like he's showing some progress.  Last year Utah won with him in the starting lineup, but he was very passive..  He was shockingly good defensively, though (read some article about how his advanced defensive stats were arguably better than either Smart or Nerlens Noel).  It will be interesting to see what kind of player Exum becomes long-term.

No not really ::)......Exum played like 20 more NBA games last year , has tons more minutes .....even the biased Utah announcers admitted that .  Exum still looks college weak like to me ..soft ...Smart plays like a man .....

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #599 on: July 07, 2015, 07:39:49 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Didn't get to see the game -- how did Jonathan Holmes look?  Of the non-draft invitees, he's the one I thought had the best chance at getting a roster spot this year if one opens up.  As a college senior who was projected as a late first/second round draft pick, he seems like someone who has a chance of being useful.  He was pretty absent from the box score -- was he also invisible on the court?

I hope he starts over CJ Fair the next game.