Author Topic: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15  (Read 88950 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #570 on: July 07, 2015, 12:15:20 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875


If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

I'm talking recent times here, like past 10-15 years.

You might be right and there might be a stack of them, but I can't think of any.

From what I can see the only thing Young is especially good at is shooting, but even as a shooter he's not spectacular - just good.  It's not like he's Ray Allen 2.0 or anything.

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #571 on: July 07, 2015, 12:16:38 AM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
When it comes to James Young, guys, just remember that it took CJ Miles until his 3rd season to become a rotation player in the NBA.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #572 on: July 07, 2015, 12:16:40 AM »

Offline GzUP617

  • Derrick White
  • Posts: 265
  • Tommy Points: 12
These guys are very handicapped with no center .

I don't think they can win a game without a center to rebound for them......

Our squad. Is TOO short.
Yeah. I mean, the lack of a center is clearly the reason why our three guards shot a combined 13/39.


Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #573 on: July 07, 2015, 12:20:30 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
When it comes to James Young, guys, just remember that it took CJ Miles until his 3rd season to become a rotation player in the NBA.

So we are spending the next two years clogging up a roster spot (from which we're getting zero production) for a guy that we are hoping becomes CJ Miles?

Wow...the situation is worse than I thought.

I mean don't get me wrong Miles is not a bad player, but that's a lot of time to invest just to see a guy develop into a role player / rotation player.  We could use him in a deal and then sign / trade for a role player if we want one that badly. 


Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #574 on: July 07, 2015, 12:22:49 AM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
When it comes to James Young, guys, just remember that it took CJ Miles until his 3rd season to become a rotation player in the NBA.

So we are spending the next two years clogging up a roster spot (from which we're getting zero production) for a guy that we are hoping becomes CJ Miles?

Wow...the situation is worse than I thought.

Hey, for the 18th pick in the draft, CJ Miles is not a bad outcome.  Guy is a rotation caliber bench scorer.

If we're expecting Young to turn into an All-Star, well, I think that's a bit much.

Martell Webster is another comp I like for Young.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #575 on: July 07, 2015, 12:27:07 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
When it comes to James Young, guys, just remember that it took CJ Miles until his 3rd season to become a rotation player in the NBA.

So we are spending the next two years clogging up a roster spot (from which we're getting zero production) for a guy that we are hoping becomes CJ Miles?

Wow...the situation is worse than I thought.

Hey, for the 18th pick in the draft, CJ Miles is not a bad outcome.  Guy is a rotation caliber bench scorer.

If we're expecting Young to turn into an All-Star, well, I think that's a bit much.

Martell Webster is another comp I like for Young.

If that's the case then I'm sorry, but I'd be ditching the guy ASAP.

I don't want to take up a roster spot for two seasons with a guy who can't play / contribute at all, unless I know that said guy has the potential to at least become a very good start (preferably an All-Star).   Especially when said player is a guard, on a roster that already has too many guards.

I believe that roster spot could be more efficiently utilized.  There are vet min guys out there who could likely contribute a lot more than Young can right now.  Hell even Gerald Wallace is more worthy of a Roster spot right now (based on play alone). 

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #576 on: July 07, 2015, 12:27:39 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8593
  • Tommy Points: 1389
Trying to argue the leading scorer and assist man in the game is having a bad game is high comedy at this point. hahaha
hes playing against mostly D league players. His shooting and inability to get separation at the rim has been terrible. Those two things cant be argued against.

KeepRondo =  the Debbie Downer of Marcus Smart comments ("observations")
I want him to be the next super star also but this game doesnt convince me he's gonna be. Just hoping to see him work on pulling up in the lane. These out of control drives are not working.

Dude, Smart had a monster game and had the most hustle out of anyone. Who would you rather have? Elfrid Payton?
He forced a ton of bad shots. Had a tough time finding clean air when driving and seemed out of control way too much.

Was hoping to see a better performance from him.

Yeah, I hoped he would have a triple double also. After having that first quarter it was obvious he was the only threat. The Jazz big men just sat and watched him as he drove to the paint. He took questionable shots early, but his effort was unmatched.
never said he played terrible. Disappointed he struggled with getting to the rim. You cant really argue that he took some wild shots driving into those d league guys.

Everything else he did was great.

Harden does the same thing. While Harden is a bit more graceful at it, Smart is bigger and strong enough to bulldoze his way through more than Harden can. I think you might be putting the bar a little too high for Smart right now. With everyone's talk last year that "he can't drive," this was an A++ game for him. Shot selection is a legitimate criticism, though.
Harden is better at breaking his man down causing most teams to be out of position on his driving angles. Harden also continues his drive after making contact. Smart usually takes it right at the defender absorbing the contact and he usually stops his momentum. He's not going to get those calls often.

Think what we're getting at is Smart would benefit a ton from developing a hard Euro step. Harden not an above-the-rim player, and that is largely his bread and butter. I'd lovee to see Smart tuck that into his arsenal. That and some post-up possessions.
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #577 on: July 07, 2015, 12:29:44 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive? 

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #578 on: July 07, 2015, 12:38:19 AM »

Offline byennie

  • Webmaster
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2572
  • Tommy Points: 3033
Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

Smart was super aggressive with not much help from his teammates, and went 12-13 from the free throw line. He definitely forced some shots, but we're talking 26 points, 8 assists, 5 rebounds, 2 steals, 1 impressive block, and 2 turnovers (one which was an offensive foul). Hard to find fault with that IMO, although lots of folks here are doing their best. 26 points on 20 shots with zero inside help (Smart led the team in rebounds with 5), on a night when his shot wasn't falling.

It's a work in progress, but showing the ability to get to the line on a regular basis is an important step for him, and his hustle/defense was outstanding as usual.

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #579 on: July 07, 2015, 12:40:13 AM »

Offline byennie

  • Webmaster
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2572
  • Tommy Points: 3033


If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

Yeah, I think it's a LITTLE early to claim he's no better in his second year. He's played in 1 summer league game and scored 12 points.

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #580 on: July 07, 2015, 12:40:25 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

A look at Smart's FTA should answer that one for you - I think he hit over 10 free throws.  Was getting to the paint at will. His finishing ability once he got the has been questioned by some, but he was driving like a beast.

Exum looked...ok.

He looked like a solid NBA player, didn't see much that screamed "star potential" to me.  He still looks a bit awkward in the way he moves.

Based on Eye test alone, I felt like Smart was by far the more dominant of the two - even if the stats suggest it was much closer than that. 

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #581 on: July 07, 2015, 12:42:30 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8593
  • Tommy Points: 1389
Just saw the box score.  Smart put up stats, but 6-20?.... Woof.  How'd he look?  Still bricking ill advised shots?  Did he try penatrating at all?

How did Exum look?  Saw he was +31.  Was he looking more aggressive?

Thank you. He was jacking 3s (2-8), which the majority of us didn't recognize/care about because he was filling up the box score. But he had success when he posted up (scored or created for others) or drove (blocked, pretty out of control) and got to the line.

I was called "LarBrd" for my comments in this thread, btw. Lol. It's spot-on, though. I'm glad you and a few other posters get that his growth is more important than his box score right now - would rather see him utilizing his abilities to hone a skill set that will translate to the league rather than just drop 35 b/c he's playing against boys.
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #582 on: July 07, 2015, 12:43:16 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875


If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

Yeah, I think it's a LITTLE early to claim he's no better in his second year. He's played in 1 summer league game and scored 12 points.

Yes, but last year he didn't even play in the summer league - he might have scored 12 in his first SL game last year too.

Just looking at his game in general though, I don't see anything that I didn't see at the start of last year.  Still looks really bad defensively, still not much of a passer / ball handler.  Still didn't do a fantastic job gettign tot he basket.  Still looked lost and at times lazy out there. 

He's been in the league for a year, but I can't see any signs of obvious development.

I watched Smart play and the improvements in his aggressiveness, confidence and his ability to get to the basket are huge - night and day compared to his SL showing last year.

There were at least 2-3 guys on this team (Rozier, Mickey and arguably Hunter) who all IMO played significantly better than Young did on both ends of the floor - and not one of those guys has played a single NBA game yet.  That kinda concerns me...

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #583 on: July 07, 2015, 12:49:09 AM »

Offline alewilliam789

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1605
  • Tommy Points: 76
Hunter:
Surprisingly more settled with Hunter than I would usually think I would be after a 0/5 performance. For me it's not a question of whether his jump shot will drop, but when. Flashed his Basketball IQ all throughout the game as a help defender. Slid his feet really well in 1 on 1 situations and used his length to work those passing lengths. Needs to move more without the ball because he was kind of getting stuck in the corners. On the contrary we need to find him on the baseline on drive and kicks and transition for him to be completely effective. Need to run him more off some ball screens and back screens to get him some open shots. Hoping he becomes more comfortable as the SL progresses.

Could you see Hunter maybe becoming a bit of a Courtney Lee type player, albiet a less athletic version?

Right now he kind of strikes me as being somewhere between Courtney Lee and Tayshaun Prince. 

I believe his shot will come, guys often struggle with their jump shot in their first NBA level games. 

But I see solid passing and ball handling ability, and he seems to use his length very well on defense - seems to have excellent basketball IQ.

By no means an elite or explosive athlete, but seems to move well enough to be effective on both ends of the floor.

Has a decent frame, so hopefully he can put on some mass.

I'm already liking Hunter a lot more after one game than I've liked Young at any time in the past year.

Overall I'm actually pretty enthused by what I've seen from all the rookies.  Rozier looks to me like he could play spot minutes at backup PG right now (in a Phil Pressey type role).  He struggled with his shot a little but looked quite fluid handling the ball and getting shots off, he just didn't take (or make) that many of them.  Similar deal on defense - shows flashes of solid defense.  Given his athletic ability I think the upside is definitely there - I feel like this kid could easily become Reggie Jackson / Eric Bledsoe good...and if he does then that's a steal at #16.

Mickey showed some potential - he definitely has skills.  he's only 6'9" I know, but he has elite athletic gifts and a ridiculous wingspan relative to his height - if he can put on another 10-15 pounds I feel he could be a very solid producer (in the mould of Brandon Bass).

Thornton didn't get to play much, but I'm actually really curious to see what he can do.  Not a lot of tape out there on the kid, but he has elite athleticism and according to scouting reports there isn't a lot he can't do - good scorer, solid shooter, good ball handler, decent passer, solid defender.  Danny doesn't seem to often use those late 2nd round picks on athlete's with upside so curious to see if he can amount to anything at the NBA level.

To be honest it's really hard to throw comparisons out there right now. At this point there is only one way to go after a 0/5 performance and it is up. I love the kids game and really want him to succeed as a Celtic. Hopefully once he gets a couple of easy layups he can become more confident and knock down some jumpshots. In reality he only had one open jumpshot in the corner.


 The problem with this team is that there is very little drive and kick action. When Marcus drives to the rim he needs to kick it out when the defense collapses instead of forcing up some of these wild shots. It leads to better shots for everybody else and fewer transition opportunities for the opposing team on missed shots. Everyone's saying, "You wanted him to shoot less 3s and drive into the paint. Now he's driving you're calling him wild!!" I just want him to play basketball. There is a difference between being aggressive and being wild. Smart to me seems like he's bordering wild. When you go to the rim and are just bumping into people and flailing everywhere that is wild. The only player that I have seen that can play wild successfully is Russell Westbrook, but only because he's so ridiculously athletic and can inject a game with his borderline barbarianism. Even for Russell Westbrook it gets him into trouble and if we are being realistic Westbrook is 10 times the player and athlete Smart is at this point.


Also enough of this James Harden crap. James Harden is methodical and shifty. He creates fouls by slightly throwing defenders off balance then getting to the rim and taking advantage of the tendency for defenders to bring their arms down as opposing offensive players drive to the rim. Smart is doing the complete opposite. Instead he is bullishly forcing his way to the rim then putting his elbows up and flailing for a call. He's not using footwork or crossover combos to throw that defender off kilter and then creating the foul. Also for any knowledgeable basketball fan it's easy to see that Harden clearly has better body control than Smart so none of that either. Trying to be a bull in a man's league will get you nowhere but charge calls and fan frustration.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 12:57:15 AM by alewilliam789 »

Re: Celtics (0-0) vs Utah Jazz (0-0) Jazz SL Game 1 7/6/15
« Reply #584 on: July 07, 2015, 12:51:56 AM »

Offline saltlover

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12490
  • Tommy Points: 2619


If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

I'm talking recent times here, like past 10-15 years.

You might be right and there might be a stack of them, but I can't think of any.

From what I can see the only thing Young is especially good at is shooting, but even as a shooter he's not spectacular - just good.  It's not like he's Ray Allen 2.0 or anything.

Sure.  "Great" is a loaded word, but here are some guys who stunk/couldn't get off the bench in year one, didn't do much better in year 2, and then became valuable players that most C's fans would want/have wanted on the team.  Also, I will list first the player's age as a rookie.  Keep in mind Young was 19, and will be younger than most or all of the players listed.

Kyle Lowry (20) -- Barely played his rookie year (10 games), and shot under 37% from the field.  Year 2-3 he shot 25% from 3.  Year 4 he improved to 27%.  Since that time he's improved to a good shooter, and has upped his career average to 35%, and even made an All-Star game.  His passing stats were always decent, but as Young doesn't compare since he's not a point guard, that's not fair.  His shooting improved from bad to very good, beginning in year 5.

Arron Afflalo (22) - He shot 20% from 3 his rookie year, in way more playing time than Young had.  He improved his 3-point shooting in year 2 to 40%, but saw his PER tumble from 10.2 to 8.9.  (Young's PER last year was 8.7).  He's since turned into a valuable wing, albeit not a star.

Jeff Teague (21) - Ddin't get much playing time and struggled during his rookie year.  Under 41% from the field, and 22% from 3.  Took his step forward in season 2.

DeMarre Carroll (23) - Stunk his first three years in the league, with poor shooting percentages, little playing time, and PERs of 8.5, 8.7, and 11.0, respectively.

John Wall (20) - Just looking at shooting stats, he was not good.  eFG% of under .43 each of two years -- managed to go 3-42 from 3 his second year. PER okay because he did other point-guardy things Young isn't asked to do.

Anyway, there's a few, from the 2006-2011 drafts.  I'm sure there are more -- just aimed for guards/wings like Young.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 01:01:27 AM by saltlover »