Stringing Fans Along

[Forza Juventus]

Much breath and many words have been spent on what Philadelphia is doing in its rebuild.

One of the common sentiments is that tanking and aiming to build through the draft -- which is a crapshoot, all agree -- is basically one really effective long con.  Bill Simmons, I believe, is the one who likened it to a Ponzi scheme when the Sixers traded the reigning Rookie of the Year for yet another future 1st.  You don't have to deliver results because being bad is the goal.  You just have to draft the 5-star prospects that fall into your lap each June.  Rinse and repeat, until sometime 5 years from now they finally realize this is a bridge to nowhere.  Right?

Today when I was reading once again about all of the assets and flexibility Danny Ainge has, and how the Celts will once again have oodles of cap space next summer, I wondered to myself, "Well, how is this different?"

Isn't Danny Ainge stringing fans along with the nebulous hope that all of these moves will amount to something?  That these moves, that don't point in any particular direction or sketch out a clear plan, will eventually culminate in the blockbuster trade or major free agent signing, or both, that suddenly snaps the franchise out of the doldrums?

After "fireworks!" turned into cheap firecrackers last summer, this off-season was hopefully going to be different.  The team was going to move up in the draft.  A free agent would sign here; if not a major name, at least one of the second tier guys.  None of that has materialized, and it appears we'll have more or less the same team at the start of next season. 

Of course, we're already hearing that Danny Ainge might be able to make a big move at the deadline with all of these expiring deals, or make a move in the draft next year with his fist full of first round draft picks.  The Celts will have 60 million in cap space next year!  Fireworks 3.0 people!

I guess the counterpoint is that Danny Ainge has actually delivered "results," i.e., the team has actually won some games and even made the playoffs since the rebuild began.  But how much value do we place on that when the team got swept and most of the players who were a part of that run will probably have been traded or simply allowed to leave in free agency by the time the team is really good again?


This isn't to knock Ainge so much as it is to push people to articulate why what Hinkie has done in Philadelphia is so much worse.  In both cases, isn't the GM asking much of the fans to have faith that he knows what he's doing and this will all make sense in time?

I totally agree with this. We are a bootleg version of philly and the philosophy is similar. Every year it is hype, marketing, and money ball. If I here flexibility one more time omg lol. But I was called a conspiracy theorist.... 

[SHAQATTACK]

Fans who understand how the NBA is ....

Are PO'd

I expect him to resign anytime.......he has screwed up

/He is really sucking at his job.

[tazzmaniac]

Ainge is trying to rebuild on the fly while Hinkie is trying to rebuild from scratch.  If we had a star to build upon, I'd agree with Ainge's approach.  Unfortunately we don't so I prefer Hinkie's approach.  I don't think Hinkie would have done the IT trade even if he thought IT was a bit more valuable than the Cavs 1st.  I'm certain he wouldn't have used cap space on a couple mediocre free agents.  Brett Brown said the Sixers "didn't want to get pregnant with average players".  That's exactly what we did by making the playoffs because of the weak East.

Hinkie's plan isn't just tanking to improve the Sixer's own picks.  He's acquired a lot of picks by trading off players that aren't in the Sixers future plans and by using their plentiful cap space in salary dump trades.  He's used roster spots to churn through d-leaguers to find keepers like Covington.  The Sixer's young players get ample opportunity to play, develop and prove themselves.  Early in the season, Noel looked like he should be in the d-league at times but he still got playing time and developed quite nicely.  On the other hand, Young was relegated to the d-league because he wasn't good enough to help us get wins so his development was stunted. 

Hinkie's approach has gotten the Sixers better assets and maintained more cap space at the expense of wins.  However the losing culture argument is bogus.  The Sixers were an above average defense even with their lesser talent and high turnover.  They just had a really lousy offense. 

[ahonui06]

I don't believe Ainge and the front office are stringing the fans along.  I believe it is just a gradual process and last year was really the first stepping stone in getting back to contender status.

Ainge now has assets in the form of young players with potential and draft picks which could also be beneficial for the right trade.

[cltc5]

I don't believe Ainge and the front office are stringing the fans along.  I believe it is just a gradual process and last year was really the first stepping stone in getting back to contender status.

Ainge now has assets in the form of young players with potential and draft picks which could also be beneficial for the right trade.

At what point do we stop accumulating players and start building a team.  Why not just build from within.  We have a nice core now start adding guys through the draft and build up our current players.

[ahonui06]

I don't believe Ainge and the front office are stringing the fans along.  I believe it is just a gradual process and last year was really the first stepping stone in getting back to contender status.

Ainge now has assets in the form of young players with potential and draft picks which could also be beneficial for the right trade.

At what point do we stop accumulating players and start building a team.  Why not just build from within.  We have a nice core now start adding guys through the draft and build up our current players.

I agree with you on that front. If Ainge does make a trade I would want the deal to be primarily of picks and players such as Turner or Sullinger. I would like to keep the young core as much as possible.

[SHAQATTACK]

I don't believe Ainge and the front office are stringing the fans along.  I believe it is just a gradual process and last year was really the first stepping stone in getting back to contender status.

Ainge now has assets in the form of young players with potential and draft picks which could also be beneficial for the right trade.

At what point do we stop accumulating players and start building a team.  Why not just build from within.  We have a nice core now start adding guys through the draft and build up our current players.

Because you can't get CBS to do ANY tanking what so ever .....so,Lakers , Knick , everybody else uses the NBA plan for rebuilding ....But .....CBS and Ainge

[tazzmaniac]

Much breath and many words have been spent on what Philadelphia is doing in its rebuild.

One of the common sentiments is that tanking and aiming to build through the draft -- which is a crapshoot, all agree -- is basically one really effective long con.  Bill Simmons, I believe, is the one who likened it to a Ponzi scheme when the Sixers traded the reigning Rookie of the Year for yet another future 1st.  You don't have to deliver results because being bad is the goal.  You just have to draft the 5-star prospects that fall into your lap each June.  Rinse and repeat, until sometime 5 years from now they finally realize this is a bridge to nowhere.  Right?

Today when I was reading once again about all of the assets and flexibility Danny Ainge has, and how the Celts will once again have oodles of cap space next summer, I wondered to myself, "Well, how is this different?"

Isn't Danny Ainge stringing fans along with the nebulous hope that all of these moves will amount to something?  That these moves, that don't point in any particular direction or sketch out a clear plan, will eventually culminate in the blockbuster trade or major free agent signing, or both, that suddenly snaps the franchise out of the doldrums?

After "fireworks!" turned into cheap firecrackers last summer, this off-season was hopefully going to be different.  The team was going to move up in the draft.  A free agent would sign here; if not a major name, at least one of the second tier guys.  None of that has materialized, and it appears we'll have more or less the same team at the start of next season. 

Of course, we're already hearing that Danny Ainge might be able to make a big move at the deadline with all of these expiring deals, or make a move in the draft next year with his fist full of first round draft picks.  The Celts will have 60 million in cap space next year!  Fireworks 3.0 people!

I guess the counterpoint is that Danny Ainge has actually delivered "results," i.e., the team has actually won some games and even made the playoffs since the rebuild began.  But how much value do we place on that when the team got swept and most of the players who were a part of that run will probably have been traded or simply allowed to leave in free agency by the time the team is really good again?


This isn't to knock Ainge so much as it is to push people to articulate why what Hinkie has done in Philadelphia is so much worse.  In both cases, isn't the GM asking much of the fans to have faith that he knows what he's doing and this will all make sense in time?

I totally agree with this. We are a bootleg version of philly and the philosophy is similar. Every year it is hype, marketing, and money ball. If I here flexibility one more time omg lol. But I was called a conspiracy theorist.... 

GMs do need to maintain flexibility but they need to use it correctly.  Ainge just used our cap space on two mid-career mediocre players that don't move the needle.  Their 2nd years are not guaranteed so they are modest trade assets.  Big Whoop.       

Hinkie used a similar amount of the Sixer's cap space to take on a couple mid-career players that don't move the needle but got Stauskas, a future protected 1st and two picks swaps while just giving up a couple Euro stash 2nd rounders.  It is a good deal regardless but since it is with the Kings it has potential to be great. 

[SHAQATTACK]

Ainge is treading water

If he can't recruit the talent, buy it ,trade for it .....

Then he has to tank for it.


Do nothing ...watch and waiting is not the way to run a pro sports business.

[cltc5]

I think Danny's trying.  Its up to these guys to step up now...IT, Smart, Young, KO, Sully...they all need to get better this year and I mean alot!  At some point its up to the team to look inisde and say were gonna do this oursleves.  US against the world.

My only gripe is this mess with Harris.  I really think he could be a nice addition and someone to build on.  Not happy with the band aid of Amir johnson but we'll see how it pans out.  If a star rises from this team this year...Looking at you KO they'll be fun to watch again.

[hwangjini_1]

I don't believe Ainge and the front office are stringing the fans along.  I believe it is just a gradual process and last year was really the first stepping stone in getting back to contender status.

Ainge now has assets in the form of young players with potential and draft picks which could also be beneficial for the right trade.

At what point do we stop accumulating players and start building a team.  Why not just build from within.  We have a nice core now start adding guys through the draft and build up our current players.

Because you can't get CBS to do ANY tanking what so ever .....so,Lakers , Knick , everybody else uses the NBA plan for rebuilding ....But .....CBS and Ainge

earlier arguments here show this isnt true. how many times did cbers post about the tank two years ago by ainge? further, as we can see different teams take different routes to building contenders. yearly tanking is NOT the only route.

[vjcsmoke]

Well the Sixers have had better draft luck than us.  We've never even drafted as high as #3 in that time span.  But the Sixers managed to draft #3, #3, #10, and #11 in the past 3 years.  They have also made 16 draft picks in the past 3 years alone.  Going by quantity AND quality, they should have better chance at high quality players.

Danny has managed to do quite a bit with not nearly as high a hand as Hinkie.  And in terms of actual results.  Celtics have won more games than the Sixers over that 3 year span.

I guess I want to try to get people to admit that both rebuilding strategies require the fan base to have a lot of faith in the GM because it's far from guaranteed that either way is going to work out. 

The Sixers have placed all of their hopes on high draft picks. 

We have placed all of our hopes on Trader Danny.

[Scintan]

And in terms of actual results.  Celtics have won more games than the Sixers over that 3 year span.

That's meaningless.  Losses are a feature of the Philly approach, not a bug.

[Snakehead]

Robin Lopez is making 14 million a year for 4 years. 

Stars will continue to be available because salaries are going up.  This is a basic fact and the cap going up isn't going to cause no stars to be available.  This approach not a reliable method to say "next year we're rebuilt for sure!" but neither is the tanking approach (which is an approach that's days are numbered as there's more and more noise and receptiveness to changing the lottery from the NBA) and I get to watch decent basketball.  Thank you Danny Ainge.

[Rondo9]

Also hilarious is people saying no stars will ever get moved again since the cap is going up.  Stars always move.  Not all the time (obviously) but the cap going up doesn't matter.  Every player's salary will go up too, so why won't the same money squeezes occur?  Aren't we watching All Star caliber players move this very year?   So illogical.

I think an element of cheering for a team yet to reach "consistent contender" status is this anticipatory feeling you describe.

I feel the difference between us and the Sixers is that we are not apologists of losing. The Celtics try every season to improve, and put out a product that is enjoyable for fans to watch. We may be constructing the equivalent of an NBA mid-major, as a few posters have suggested. However, I feel we can at least take pride in the fact that we try to win.

To me, that's a big difference.

I think it's largely semantics.

Not to fans who enjoy watching competitive basketball.

Everyone enjoys watching competitive basketball -- it is tiring to watch a team with a serious talent deficit lose after keeping the game "entertainingly close" for 82 games.

"Well, at least they tried" doesn't have enough variations to sustain me for another season, sorry.

That doesn't describe last season for Boston, at all.

The Celtics started last season with Rondo, Green and a dysfunctional unit that was one of the worst in the league.  Then they made some trades, started playing A LOT better and finished with one of the best post-all-star records in the league.

And as for talent, I don't know what to say except that too many people on this board are hopeless. 

Mike

Oh look it's this argument again.

I think Pho described it most recently, but the fact that the C's were deep, relatively healthy, and were facing several teams that were playing down to them should not be conflated with a squad that has a talented roster.

In fact, I believe you tried to make the case that the C's weren't any more talented than a lot of the teams that they finished ahead of in the standings. Why the swap now?

Playing down to them? I think they the teams took them seriously.