Stringing Fans Along

[D.o.s.]

Also hilarious is people saying no stars will ever get moved again since the cap is going up.  Stars always move.  Not all the time (obviously) but the cap going up doesn't matter.  Every player's salary will go up too, so why won't the same money squeezes occur?  Aren't we watching All Star caliber players move this very year?   So illogical.

I think an element of cheering for a team yet to reach "consistent contender" status is this anticipatory feeling you describe.

I feel the difference between us and the Sixers is that we are not apologists of losing. The Celtics try every season to improve, and put out a product that is enjoyable for fans to watch. We may be constructing the equivalent of an NBA mid-major, as a few posters have suggested. However, I feel we can at least take pride in the fact that we try to win.

To me, that's a big difference.

I think it's largely semantics.

Not to fans who enjoy watching competitive basketball.

Everyone enjoys watching competitive basketball -- it is tiring to watch a team with a serious talent deficit lose after keeping the game "entertainingly close" for 82 games.

"Well, at least they tried" doesn't have enough variations to sustain me for another season, sorry.

[Who]

Also hilarious is people saying no stars will ever get moved again since the cap is going up.  Stars always move.

I think LESS stars will move (be traded, I mean).

I think teams will feel less boxed in because the added cap space gives them opportunities to enhance their team and move forward again. So I think less teams will feel forced into rebuilding and thus less stars be moved (for picks, youngsters, cap space type trade packages).

There will still be opportunities. Just fewer of them.

Why though?  You think every player's salary won't go up accordingly?  You think the players and their reps will allow that?

I explained why -- pretty much all teams have cap space next year and year after due to higher cap so that extra cap space gives them an opportunity to add FAs to their team and improve their team ... whereas before, more teams where strangled by bad cap management and had less opportunity to improve their team.

That opportunity = hope

That hope is a reason to keep your better players and continue to try to build a top team.

-------------------------------

It won't last for long. Just the next year or two as the cap comes in ... I expect to see fewer teams trade away their stars to rebuild.

Then I expect things to go back to normal.

[PhoSita]

I'm lucky that I've never felt that every year that we aren't a legitimate title contender is simply a wasted one. 

I think you're setting up a bit of a straw man there.

Any fan that feels a year spent not contending is a waste is going to be unhappy most years.  That's just how it is.

Personally, I can feel pretty good about a year spent not contending if I feel the team is clearly building toward something.  I want to feel like that year was a productive step along the journey toward contention and hopefully, eventually, a title.  If it seems like the team spent a year spinning its wheels, possibly not really getting any closer, that feels like a waste.

This past year was fun at times, and maybe one of the guys they took in the draft will turn into something special.  I can't help wondering if we just kicked the can further down the road.  The moves in free agency certainly make it seem that way -- just biding our time for another year, waiting for a can't-miss trade opportunity to come along.

[Snakehead]

Also hilarious is people saying no stars will ever get moved again since the cap is going up.  Stars always move.  Not all the time (obviously) but the cap going up doesn't matter.  Every player's salary will go up too, so why won't the same money squeezes occur?  Aren't we watching All Star caliber players move this very year?   So illogical.

I think an element of cheering for a team yet to reach "consistent contender" status is this anticipatory feeling you describe.

I feel the difference between us and the Sixers is that we are not apologists of losing. The Celtics try every season to improve, and put out a product that is enjoyable for fans to watch. We may be constructing the equivalent of an NBA mid-major, as a few posters have suggested. However, I feel we can at least take pride in the fact that we try to win.

To me, that's a big difference.

I think it's largely semantics.

Not to fans who enjoy watching competitive basketball.

Everyone enjoys watching competitive basketball -- it is tiring to watch a team with a serious talent deficit lose after keeping the game "entertainingly close" for 82 games.

"Well, at least they tried" doesn't have enough variations to sustain me for another season, sorry.

There is no certainty in the other side so I don't get the point of view.  Nevermind that the NBA will fix the awful tanking issue in the next few years.

Loved watching the Celtics last year and thankful I didn't have to watch a rotation of D League players.  Excited for this next year too and we are in a great position to make a move.  Just requires an opportunity.  Glad Danny didn't take any offers that were poor ones this offseason.

In the broad view of what other teams and fanbases go through, forgive me if I don't have a lot of sympathy for such impatience about not having 3 All Stars on our team.

[PhoSita]

Fewer*

[Snakehead]

Also hilarious is people saying no stars will ever get moved again since the cap is going up.  Stars always move.

I think LESS stars will move (be traded, I mean).

I think teams will feel less boxed in because the added cap space gives them opportunities to enhance their team and move forward again. So I think less teams will feel forced into rebuilding and thus less stars be moved (for picks, youngsters, cap space type trade packages).

There will still be opportunities. Just fewer of them.

Why though?  You think every player's salary won't go up accordingly?  You think the players and their reps will allow that?

I explained why -- pretty much all teams have cap space next year and year after due to higher cap so that extra cap space gives them an opportunity to add FAs to their team and improve their team ... whereas before, more teams where strangled by bad cap management and had less opportunity to improve their team.

That opportunity = hope

That hope is a reason to keep your better players and continue to try to build a top team.

-------------------------------

It won't last for long. Just the next year or two as the cap comes in ... I expect to see fewer teams trade away their stars to rebuild.

Then I expect things to go back to normal.

I guess I just don't agree.  The transition will be a very brief window where some players are underpaid and then it's business as usual.  Players are already getting paid anticipating a cap rise so the writing is already on the wall.  Wade took a one year deal.

There's already talk of Love being on the trade block in a year for example with the Cavs payroll (a team reassembled this year that is already being squeezed for money, btw).  Cousins I anticipate demanding a trade in the next season given how things are going in Sac.  Same as always.  Ainge is ready.

[CoachBo]

You make good points.  I will say that the Celtics, at least in the second half, were worth watching.  They were playing good basketball.  I even enjoyed watching them as they were swept by Cleveland and appreciated their effort.

The Sixers have been ugly to watch for a few years now.  It is also difficult to develop players in such a losing culture and terrible play.

The Celts were definitely more enjoyable to watch than an all-out tank job.  That's for sure.

I wonder how long that will last, though.  Much of what I enjoyed about the team this past year was that they were a pleasant surprise.  They fought harder than opponents.  They were a scrappy underdog.

How many teams are they going to take by surprise next year?  If they really keep up the 50+ win pace heading into next year, awesome.  What if they struggle a bit?  Will they be less endearing when it's less a case of, "Wow, these guys are surprisingly fun to watch!" and more a case of, "Is this it?"

I'm not sure you want to confuse the product on the court with the front office here.

Sure, the Celtics were fun to watch once the albatross of Rondo was gone. That won't change a bunch next season ... but neither will the record.

As for the front office, the reality is the alleged assets Ainge gets hyperbolically lauded for accumulating aren't worth much. The conclusive proof is in the last two summers: No one wants them.

The real only way out of this treadmill of mediocrity we're on is for someone else to fire-sale a star, as Sam Presti and McHale did years ago, or for Brooklyn to fall flat on its face.

If neither happens, it's going to be a very long time - and another GM - before the Celtics contend for a title.

I laugh at all the "Ainge has a plan" stuff.

[MBunge]

Also hilarious is people saying no stars will ever get moved again since the cap is going up.  Stars always move.  Not all the time (obviously) but the cap going up doesn't matter.  Every player's salary will go up too, so why won't the same money squeezes occur?  Aren't we watching All Star caliber players move this very year?   So illogical.

I think an element of cheering for a team yet to reach "consistent contender" status is this anticipatory feeling you describe.

I feel the difference between us and the Sixers is that we are not apologists of losing. The Celtics try every season to improve, and put out a product that is enjoyable for fans to watch. We may be constructing the equivalent of an NBA mid-major, as a few posters have suggested. However, I feel we can at least take pride in the fact that we try to win.

To me, that's a big difference.

I think it's largely semantics.

Not to fans who enjoy watching competitive basketball.

Everyone enjoys watching competitive basketball -- it is tiring to watch a team with a serious talent deficit lose after keeping the game "entertainingly close" for 82 games.

"Well, at least they tried" doesn't have enough variations to sustain me for another season, sorry.

That doesn't describe last season for Boston, at all.

The Celtics started last season with Rondo, Green and a dysfunctional unit that was one of the worst in the league.  Then they made some trades, started playing A LOT better and finished with one of the best post-all-star records in the league.

And as for talent, I don't know what to say except that too many people on this board are hopeless. 

Mike

[Atzar]

There's an element of faith required to be an optimistic fan of any rebuilding franchise, isn't there?  Every rebuilding GM is attempting to sell fans on the idea that there is a road from where the team is now to championship contention, and that the team is currently on that road. 

So yeah, Hinkie, Ainge and Kupchak are all stringing fans along with that idea.  As are the GMs of every other rebuilding franchise.  Hinkie wants to strike gold in the draft, Ainge wants to accumulate assets and then trade for stars, the Lakers want to leverage their brand and culture to acquire stars in free agency.

They all have a plan, they're attempting to convince fans to see it and trust in it.  ...except maybe the Knicks.  They seem lost.  And nobody knows what the hell Sacramento is doing.  The rest may have different philosophies but are ultimately all in the same boat. 

[Scintan]

There's an element of faith required to be an optimistic fan of any rebuilding franchise, isn't there?  Every rebuilding GM is attempting to sell fans on the idea that there is a road from where the team is now to championship contention, and that the team is currently on that road. 

So yeah, Hinkie, Ainge and Kupchak are all stringing fans along with that idea.  As are the GMs of every other rebuilding franchise.  Hinkie wants to strike gold in the draft, Ainge wants to accumulate assets and then trade for stars, the Lakers want to leverage their brand and culture to acquire stars in free agency.

They all have a plan, they're attempting to convince fans to see it and trust in it.  ...except maybe the Knicks.  They seem lost.  And nobody knows what the hell Sacramento is doing.  The rest may have different philosophies but are ultimately all in the same boat.

Well said

[PhoSita]

The real only way out of this treadmill of mediocrity we're on is for someone else to fire-sale a star, as Sam Presti and McHale did years ago, or for Brooklyn to fall flat on its face.

If neither happens, it's going to be a very long time - and another GM - before the Celtics contend for a title.

Yeah.  That's what I'm afraid of.

[PhoSita]

There's an element of faith required to be an optimistic fan of any rebuilding franchise, isn't there?  Every rebuilding GM is attempting to sell fans on the idea that there is a road from where the team is now to championship contention, and that the team is currently on that road. 

So yeah, Hinkie, Ainge and Kupchak are all stringing fans along with that idea.  As are the GMs of every other rebuilding franchise.  Hinkie wants to strike gold in the draft, Ainge wants to accumulate assets and then trade for stars, the Lakers want to leverage their brand and culture to acquire stars in free agency.

They all have a plan, they're attempting to convince fans to see it and trust in it.  ...except maybe the Knicks.  They seem lost.  And nobody knows what the hell Sacramento is doing.  The rest may have different philosophies but are ultimately all in the same boat.

Yup.  Excellent post. That's what I'm trying to point out.  We have no reason to feel holier-than-thou in relation to the Sixers.  Our GM has just taken a different road.

[Ilikesports17]

You make good points.  I will say that the Celtics, at least in the second half, were worth watching.  They were playing good basketball.  I even enjoyed watching them as they were swept by Cleveland and appreciated their effort.

The Sixers have been ugly to watch for a few years now.  It is also difficult to develop players in such a losing culture and terrible play.

The Celts were definitely more enjoyable to watch than an all-out tank job.  That's for sure.

I wonder how long that will last, though.  Much of what I enjoyed about the team this past year was that they were a pleasant surprise.  They fought harder than opponents.  They were a scrappy underdog.

How many teams are they going to take by surprise next year?  If they really keep up the 50+ win pace heading into next year, awesome.  What if they struggle a bit?  Will they be less endearing when it's less a case of, "Wow, these guys are surprisingly fun to watch!" and more a case of, "Is this it?"

I'm not sure you want to confuse the product on the court with the front office here.

Sure, the Celtics were fun to watch once the albatross of Rondo was gone. That won't change a bunch next season ... but neither will the record.

As for the front office, the reality is the alleged assets Ainge gets hyperbolically lauded for accumulating aren't worth much. The conclusive proof is in the last two summers: No one wants them.

The real only way out of this treadmill of mediocrity we're on is for someone else to fire-sale a star, as Sam Presti and McHale did years ago, or for Brooklyn to fall flat on its face.

If neither happens, it's going to be a very long time - and another GM - before the Celtics contend for a title.

I laugh at all the "Ainge has a plan" stuff.

not necessarily.

That is the most tangible plan.

However, Boston has a ton of "C" assets as people have taken to calling them (I think of them as B assets but what can you do?)

Sully, KO, Smart, Young, Rozier, Hunter, AB, Crowder, Zeller,  BKn pick Mavs pick our  own picks. The 1sts project to be mid round picks so you cant expect a blue-chipper there, however with all those C assets the possibility undeniably exists for one or two of these guys to make a big leap forward.

I mean from 2014-2016 we will most likely make 7 1st round picks. 6 of which will likely be top 20. The odds of getting a star in the middle of the 1st is low but when you have 6 tries at it they become much better.

[PhoSita]

The odds of getting a star in the middle of the 1st is low but when you have 6 tries at it they become much better.

OK, sure, but how do you find out what any of them is worth if you have a roster full of 1st round picks trying to get playing time, and on top of that you're a few years into the rebuild so there's pressure to NOT play the rookies and instead play the more experienced players to try and win games?

You simply can't use all those draft picks and expect to get value out of the players you get with them.

[D.o.s.]

Also hilarious is people saying no stars will ever get moved again since the cap is going up.  Stars always move.  Not all the time (obviously) but the cap going up doesn't matter.  Every player's salary will go up too, so why won't the same money squeezes occur?  Aren't we watching All Star caliber players move this very year?   So illogical.

I think an element of cheering for a team yet to reach "consistent contender" status is this anticipatory feeling you describe.

I feel the difference between us and the Sixers is that we are not apologists of losing. The Celtics try every season to improve, and put out a product that is enjoyable for fans to watch. We may be constructing the equivalent of an NBA mid-major, as a few posters have suggested. However, I feel we can at least take pride in the fact that we try to win.

To me, that's a big difference.

I think it's largely semantics.

Not to fans who enjoy watching competitive basketball.

Everyone enjoys watching competitive basketball -- it is tiring to watch a team with a serious talent deficit lose after keeping the game "entertainingly close" for 82 games.

"Well, at least they tried" doesn't have enough variations to sustain me for another season, sorry.

That doesn't describe last season for Boston, at all.

The Celtics started last season with Rondo, Green and a dysfunctional unit that was one of the worst in the league.  Then they made some trades, started playing A LOT better and finished with one of the best post-all-star records in the league.

And as for talent, I don't know what to say except that too many people on this board are hopeless. 

Mike

Oh look it's this argument again.

I think Pho described it most recently, but the fact that the C's were deep, relatively healthy, and were facing several teams that were playing down to them should not be conflated with a squad that has a talented roster.

In fact, I believe you tried to make the case that the C's weren't any more talented than a lot of the teams that they finished ahead of in the standings. Why the swap now?