Author Topic: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade  (Read 6815 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2015, 12:08:14 AM »

Offline Hemingway

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1181
  • Tommy Points: 123
2. Who is the star? If you were in the positions of the other teams discussed, which of these stars would you want? I always considered Melo a franchise killer. If the opportunity presented itself to land him, would you really want him? I'm sure a large majority would say yes, but after some thought, you may change your mind. I would be far more confident in Chris Paul, at the time of his trade, than Melo.

Yep, I'd take Melo in a heartbeat.  Especially with our current squad, which is (IMHO) a perfect fit for him.

We have nothing but support players who are begging for a ball-hungry superstar who can put points on the board at an alarming rate.  Plus one of our biggest needs is for a scoring wing.  Hard to find  a better fit for Melo.

i'd take CP3 too, though his medical history really does scare me. 

Given the choice of both, I'd probably go Melo for that reason...and because I just think he's a better fit given our needs.

Melo would give us a 2-3 year run, tops, and we still would not be close to favorites to win the East during that time.  While I was delighted we put together the championship tandem of KG, RA and PP, it was always colored with the knowledge that it would be a limited run.  Would much rather hold off on building around a 32 year old player who sat last season out with an injury, and either wait for a younger guy (e.g., Cousins) to be in play, or just keep rebuilding the way we are.

This is largely the same argument that people who advocate for tanking put forward.

Pretty much.

So would you go all-in on Melo, or wait for a Cousins?

We got to take whomever we can get.I guess you probably could overpay for Melo, but IF he were to be traded I would think that he wants out or the team wants him gone, either way his lavue wouldn't be at an all time high. I'd rather have a younger star too but I'd rather have an older star than no star.

Sure getting Melo in a midseason trade would't make us title favorites, but it would make us a destination again for next summer and the one after it.

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2015, 01:08:13 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8593
  • Tommy Points: 1389
2. Who is the star? If you were in the positions of the other teams discussed, which of these stars would you want? I always considered Melo a franchise killer. If the opportunity presented itself to land him, would you really want him? I'm sure a large majority would say yes, but after some thought, you may change your mind. I would be far more confident in Chris Paul, at the time of his trade, than Melo.

Yep, I'd take Melo in a heartbeat.  Especially with our current squad, which is (IMHO) a perfect fit for him.

We have nothing but support players who are begging for a ball-hungry superstar who can put points on the board at an alarming rate.  Plus one of our biggest needs is for a scoring wing.  Hard to find  a better fit for Melo.

i'd take CP3 too, though his medical history really does scare me. 

Given the choice of both, I'd probably go Melo for that reason...and because I just think he's a better fit given our needs.

Melo would give us a 2-3 year run, tops, and we still would not be close to favorites to win the East during that time.  While I was delighted we put together the championship tandem of KG, RA and PP, it was always colored with the knowledge that it would be a limited run.  Would much rather hold off on building around a 32 year old player who sat last season out with an injury, and either wait for a younger guy (e.g., Cousins) to be in play, or just keep rebuilding the way we are.

This is largely the same argument that people who advocate for tanking put forward.

Pretty much.

So would you go all-in on Melo, or wait for a Cousins?

We got to take whomever we can get.I guess you probably could overpay for Melo, but IF he were to be traded I would think that he wants out or the team wants him gone, either way his lavue wouldn't be at an all time high. I'd rather have a younger star too but I'd rather have an older star than no star.

Sure getting Melo in a midseason trade would't make us title favorites, but it would make us a destination again for next summer and the one after it.

Agree that an overpay is probably worth it. I believe he's on the books through 2018-2019 season as well - something else to think about
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2015, 02:21:09 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3097
  • Tommy Points: 191
  • Celtic's only raise championship Banners
We got KG and Ray only because we had great young prospects and a top draft pick. Also a player we gave up the 7th pick for, Telfair, never gets mentioned much. It does not matter how they turned out, it matters what they did to make people believe they would be great players.

To get stars we will need more young prospects that have star potential, and they would need to show some glimpses of it. Right now we only have these for possibilities:
smart
James Young
rozier
hunter

Back then: we also had HOF PP
Rondo
Al Jefferson
Sebastian Telfair
Tony Allen
Gerald Green
#5 pick
Maybe Perk, not really tho
 and Im not gonna list all the guys that were young role player types like Delonte etc

We need a lot more young prospects if we are going to pull off getting the stars needed for a championship.
Too bad, we could have added this guy to our current list, had we not hit some lucky buzzer shots, and still prob have gotten Rozier(he prob would have slid maybe to 28 but prob not, we could have packaged our 2nd rounders and 28 to get him)

This is the type of prospect that has the makings to be what we are talking about: A guy with star potential and has shown the necessary amount of glimpses/flashes to get people's imagination flaring up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C74cReElILc

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2015, 03:18:25 AM »

Offline Irish Stew

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1080
  • Tommy Points: 56
Right now, the only way that we could come up with a potential star is to make a Godfather offer for one of Philly's 3 young Bigs. Once the season gets going, some star may try to force his way out of town and we could step in, but even then, most of these guys wind up getting traded to contenders.

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2015, 05:24:26 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
I'd be concerned giving up a huge haul for Melo that we wouldn't have time to build something around him before he hit 34 or 35 and really began to decline.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade for him, but I wouldn't give up the whole stack of assets for him.

Ideally, Ainge will find a way to put together a core that can theoretically play together for 5-8 years.  Developing continuity and experience together is important.  It's exceedingly difficult for even a very, very good group to come together in one or two years. 

It requires an absolutely devastating assemblage of talent.  Even then, they'll be likely to struggle as the Heat did in their first year together.  The '08 Celts took seven games to beat the 8th seed Hawks, after all.

I agree with this post.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2015, 05:31:10 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3097
  • Tommy Points: 191
  • Celtic's only raise championship Banners
the harden theory is nice and lets you compete while rebuilding.....but houston hasn't won crap.

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2015, 07:48:59 AM »

Offline GreenGoggles

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 325
  • Tommy Points: 76
High draft picks give you two avenues to acquiring a star. Draft one / trade your pick for one.

Once again I don't see how our playoff run helped us be more attractive to free agents.

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2015, 12:48:45 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
Once again I don't see how our playoff run helped us be more attractive to free agents.

Consider the ballad of Greg Monroe.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2015, 01:00:20 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Once again I don't see how our playoff run helped us be more attractive to free agents.

Consider the ballad of Greg Monroe.

Is that supposed to be, "Consider that Greg Monroe signed with the small market Bucks after they made a run to the playoffs instead of signing with a big market lottery team" or, "Consider that Greg Monroe didn't strongly consider the Celtics despite their run to the playoffs"?
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2015, 01:03:10 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
the harden theory is nice and lets you compete while rebuilding.....but houston hasn't won crap.

Where the Celtics are at right now reminds me a lot of those post-Yao / pre-Harden Rockets teams. 

Thing is, are we really basing our rebuild on waiting for some team to do something as historically stupid as the Thunder trading away Harden before his rookie deal was up?
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2015, 01:22:48 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11833
  • Tommy Points: 950
the harden theory is nice and lets you compete while rebuilding.....but houston hasn't won crap.

Where the Celtics are at right now reminds me a lot of those post-Yao / pre-Harden Rockets teams. 

Thing is, are we really basing our rebuild on waiting for some team to do something as historically stupid as the Thunder trading away Harden before his rookie deal was up?

Not basing the rebuild on that, but maintaining the flexibility to pounce should it happen, so it is one of several options.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2015, 01:26:32 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
the harden theory is nice and lets you compete while rebuilding.....but houston hasn't won crap.

Where the Celtics are at right now reminds me a lot of those post-Yao / pre-Harden Rockets teams. 

Thing is, are we really basing our rebuild on waiting for some team to do something as historically stupid as the Thunder trading away Harden before his rookie deal was up?

Not basing the rebuild on that, but maintaining the flexibility to pounce should it happen, so it is one of several options.

What are the other options, though?

Sign a major free agent without first acquiring a star player?

Trade for a 30ish star on the verge of decline without having the talent in place on the roster to contend right away?

Draft a star in the mid to late 1st round?

Pray that one of the teams that owes us a pick tanks unintentionally?
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2015, 01:35:33 PM »

Offline LGC88

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1500
  • Tommy Points: 167
Great topic, thanks.
I don't believe we are waiting for the star to be aligned. We are in the position to, but in the mean time we are developing young talents and our coach. We are still open for FA next season and still open to be a lottery team if suddenly all the east start to play well while their best players stay healthy.
As for the trades, the KG one was exceptional because there was no leverage on our side. KG didn't mind to stay in Minnesota. So we had to give the farm for him and were lucky to have good young players to give.
Most of the time, a trade is made out of cap situation or simply because the team wants to rebuild or the players no longer want to stay in the same team. Those ones are usually easier to deal with and Danny should be ready and favorite for a done deal.
Seeing this year that LMA and Jordan run away for free, I think other teams will start to consider to trade their star if they feel they won't resign with them. After all, would you rather have 2 young players + 2 first round picks for LMA or you prefer cap space? If you think you can resign another top FA immediatly, fine, but other than that you take the young players and the picks. It's easily 1 or 2 years or rebuilding saved.
As for who will be available for trade, nobody knows, Cousins can be gone by February or next season or maybe he will stay in SAC until 38 years old. But top players get in the trade market, it happens more often than not.

Re: Difficulty of attaining a star via trade
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2015, 01:42:47 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11833
  • Tommy Points: 950
the harden theory is nice and lets you compete while rebuilding.....but houston hasn't won crap.

Where the Celtics are at right now reminds me a lot of those post-Yao / pre-Harden Rockets teams. 

Thing is, are we really basing our rebuild on waiting for some team to do something as historically stupid as the Thunder trading away Harden before his rookie deal was up?

Not basing the rebuild on that, but maintaining the flexibility to pounce should it happen, so it is one of several options.

What are the other options, though?

Sign a major free agent without first acquiring a star player?

Trade for a 30ish star on the verge of decline without having the talent in place on the roster to contend right away?

Draft a star in the mid to late 1st round?

Pray that one of the teams that owes us a pick tanks unintentionally?

Be one of the few teams with the cap space to offer two max-contract guys the chance to team up and join a playoff team.

Unintentionally tank when the team gets hit by a ton of injuries.

The Presti method and the Morey method have produced the same number of titles.  We're probably headed down a path where the goal is to put together a team where the minutes distribution looks more like Golden State or San Antonio than Cleveland.  I think Ainge is prepared to try to contend with an ensemble cast if he can't land a superstar, and I suspect he's increasingly inclined to be less desperate about landing a star if that player doesn't fit Stevens' preference for hard-working, high-character guys who care about defense.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference