Author Topic: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....  (Read 14549 times)

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Re: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2015, 03:48:11 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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It was fine considering their stage of the rebuild process, but I doubt the pick swaps actually help them right?
So they essentially got Stauskas and what could be a good first rounder in 2018 for taking back some junk.
I don't think we're  in a position to take back bums like Landry and Thompson with our roster while we already have Wallace.
Nice move by hinkie but Ainge didn't miss out on anything here.

If you think the 76ers will continue to suck like a Hoover for the next couple of years, it lessens the import of the switch.  If you think the 76ers will be improving, the switch of picks becomes more significant.

I don't expect the 76ers to suck like a Hoover all the way through 2018.

I expect them to at least through 2017. Those pick swaps are almost meaningless. Philly will probably be a bottom 5 team this year and likely next year, while Sacto probably won't be much better, they'll probably be better than bottom 5. That 2018 pick could be good though. What are the protections?

The Kings owe a top 10 protected pick to Chicago through 2017.  The pick to Philly is top 10 protected beginning two years after they either give a pick to Chicago or that debt expires.  So if you think the Kings will pick outside the top 10 this year (in which case the Philly swap is moot) then top 10 protected beginning in 2018.  If the Kings get a top 10 pick this year, then its a top 10 protected pick beginning in 2019.

Nice, but nothing special, and I'm okay this didn't happen.  It also means the price on Wallace is still probably no more than Rozier or a lottery-protected 1st, if we need to create space in the next week.
If Chicago gets the pick in 2016, Philly can still potentially swap picks in 2017. Do you really think the Kings are going to finish outside the top 10 both years?  Getting a top 10 protected pick from the Kings is a good asset.  The Kings are very unlikely to become one of the top teams so if the pick does convey it will probably be late lottery/mid 1st.

A lot of this thread seems to assume the Kings are going to continue to suck.

I'm not sure they will.  I don't think they will be great, but they have a chance to improve significantly.  They certainly look to me like they will be better than Philly over the next two seasons.

I know that players like Boogie Cousins and Rondo are not favorites of many posters on this blog.  But a rotation that features both those guys plus Rudy Gay, Darren Collison & Willy Trill and a much improved Maclemore and has now added a shooter in Bellini is not a tanking lineup.  And I don't think Vlade took over in order to tank.  And it is, at least on paper, a talented and balanced lineup that has all aspects of the game covered.

In particular,  offensively, Rondo will have Gay, Bellini, Collison and Maclemore as good 3PT shooters for space and the two bigs to feed inside.

I also know that a stone soup made with the personalities of Rondo, Cousins & Karl seems on the surface to be a potential recipe for chaos.  And maybe it will be.  But Cousins is on record as being a big Rondo fan.  Gay is one of Rondo's closest friends.  Maybe that will "just work".  And Karl is at an age where he's not really interested in tanking and rebuilding.

All of those guys have a strong motivation to succeed.  If they don't work together, they won't.

Given that it is the West, it's hard to see them doing anything in the playoffs.  But they could potentially knock on the door to get into the playoffs.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2015, 03:53:45 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Lot of heavy breathing on that last page there.
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Re: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2015, 04:14:32 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I do not see them moving Noel since they got some guard help in this trade, too.

Re: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2015, 04:48:11 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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A lot of this thread seems to assume the Kings are going to continue to suck.

I'm not sure they will.  I don't think they will be great, but they have a chance to improve significantly.  They certainly look to me like they will be better than Philly over the next two seasons.

Given that it is the West, it's hard to see them doing anything in the playoffs.  But they could potentially knock on the door to get into the playoffs.

Finishing with a better record than the 76ers isn't the only issue though. Suppose the Kings finish 8th-10th but get a top 3 pick via the lottery - they probably lose that pick.

Granted, these are low-probability events, but even the 8th slot has a 10% chance of moving into the top 3 and a shot at a franchise player. The Kings have foreclosed that scenario - and for what? One year of Rondo?

Re: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2015, 05:18:38 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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It was fine considering their stage of the rebuild process, but I doubt the pick swaps actually help them right?
So they essentially got Stauskas and what could be a good first rounder in 2018 for taking back some junk.
I don't think we're  in a position to take back bums like Landry and Thompson with our roster while we already have Wallace.
Nice move by hinkie but Ainge didn't miss out on anything here.

If you think the 76ers will continue to suck like a Hoover for the next couple of years, it lessens the import of the switch.  If you think the 76ers will be improving, the switch of picks becomes more significant.

I don't expect the 76ers to suck like a Hoover all the way through 2018.

I expect them to at least through 2017. Those pick swaps are almost meaningless. Philly will probably be a bottom 5 team this year and likely next year, while Sacto probably won't be much better, they'll probably be better than bottom 5. That 2018 pick could be good though. What are the protections?

The Kings owe a top 10 protected pick to Chicago through 2017.  The pick to Philly is top 10 protected beginning two years after they either give a pick to Chicago or that debt expires.  So if you think the Kings will pick outside the top 10 this year (in which case the Philly swap is moot) then top 10 protected beginning in 2018.  If the Kings get a top 10 pick this year, then its a top 10 protected pick beginning in 2019.

Nice, but nothing special, and I'm okay this didn't happen.  It also means the price on Wallace is still probably no more than Rozier or a lottery-protected 1st, if we need to create space in the next week.
If Chicago gets the pick in 2016, Philly can still potentially swap picks in 2017. Do you really think the Kings are going to finish outside the top 10 both years?  Getting a top 10 protected pick from the Kings is a good asset.  The Kings are very unlikely to become one of the top teams so if the pick does convey it will probably be late lottery/mid 1st.

A lot of this thread seems to assume the Kings are going to continue to suck.

I'm not sure they will.  I don't think they will be great, but they have a chance to improve significantly.  They certainly look to me like they will be better than Philly over the next two seasons.

I know that players like Boogie Cousins and Rondo are not favorites of many posters on this blog.  But a rotation that features both those guys plus Rudy Gay, Darren Collison & Willy Trill and a much improved Maclemore and has now added a shooter in Bellini is not a tanking lineup.  And I don't think Vlade took over in order to tank.  And it is, at least on paper, a talented and balanced lineup that has all aspects of the game covered.

In particular,  offensively, Rondo will have Gay, Bellini, Collison and Maclemore as good 3PT shooters for space and the two bigs to feed inside.

I also know that a stone soup made with the personalities of Rondo, Cousins & Karl seems on the surface to be a potential recipe for chaos.  And maybe it will be.  But Cousins is on record as being a big Rondo fan.  Gay is one of Rondo's closest friends.  Maybe that will "just work".  And Karl is at an age where he's not really interested in tanking and rebuilding.

All of those guys have a strong motivation to succeed.  If they don't work together, they won't.

Given that it is the West, it's hard to see them doing anything in the playoffs.  But they could potentially knock on the door to get into the playoffs.
I like Rondo and Cousins. I think the Kings have potentially gotten better however they still play in the West.  The most wins they have in the last 7 seasons is 29.  Chances are it is going to take around 48 wins to make the playoffs.  I don't see the Kings improving that much.  As long as the Kings don't make the playoffs, the trade swaps help the Sixers.  Even if the Kings finish with the 14th worst record, the Sixers get an additional 1.8% chance at a top 3 pick. 

In the worst case that the Kings make the playoffs both years, the Sixers still get the 2018 1st (top 10) protected and Stauskas.  In the best case that the Karl/Cousins situation implodes, the sixers have a potential gold mine.  The best part is the trade cost the sixers essentially nothing.     

Re: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....
« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2015, 10:03:20 PM »

Offline sawick48

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Ainge has put us in the middle excatly the worst position you can be, can't understand the enthusiasm for mediocrity

the cap is going up by 40 to 50 million the next two years, this year was our opportunity to sign some guys with upside and he layed an egg

this, exactly.  anyone defending our offseason is running around saying look how much better we are going to be due to players progressing and another season of chemistry and blah blah blah.

You are assuming that there is some player that was available, who wanted to sign here, that Danny turned down.  Please, gives us all your evidence that this happened then criticize him.  Either that or stop.
Well the "middle" criticism is that if you can't sign elite talent, then there's no point signing middling talent when you could be improving your draft pick.

thank you.  and no, i'm not saying Danny turned anyone down.  my position is, and has always been, that us trying to chase elite FA is foolish, because none would sign here.  further, i'm not even sure how you come to that conclusion based on what i did actually say, but regardless, i'll reiterate:

if Danny wanted to chase the big top FAs (and there's plenty of evidence he tried to do this, even though i personally think it's a foolish endeavor to begin with, as a combination of Boston being an unattractive city to big time players and our team not having any marketable stars to begin with does not bode well for adding elite level talent) as soon as he was rebuffed by them (again, there's evidence this happened as well, as there were reports Butler postponed a meeting with us and Love refused to even take our calls) he should have explored deals like the one Philly completed with Sacto.

but instead, he insisted on using the cap space we had, not to get infinitely better, or infinitely worse which is what you need to do in today's nba, but rather he used it to stay the course.  he took us from a team with the potential for 35-40 wins, to a team with the potential for likely 37-42 wins. what. the hell. good. is that? 

we are prolonging our residence in the only area you do not want to be in the NBA (that #12-#24 team range), and recent history suggests and agrees with that assessment.  and worst of all, we're actively doing so.

so, assuming that's enough evidence and clarification for you, i'm going to keep going ahead and criticizing the way in which Danny has BADLY played his hand this offseason up to this point, as is my right to do on these boards.  you can cover your ears and stomp your feet and tell me i'm being mean, but you can't say i'm wrong.  truth hurts sometimes, as does being a fan of this team currently.




Im with you brother! I have lost confidence in the GM.
I ask one ? to Danny. Please explain why at least 1 top tier FA was not offered the Max. Why wasn't there a push to sign LMA, Monroe, Love or Millsap. The Lakers had lunch with everybody for ****.

#1. Everybody agreed and says Ainge took the Nets to the woodshed. In reality he didn't. Nets might be fools but they were not born yesterday. Lopez Young JJ and Deron is a .500 or better Team no matter what Conference there playing in. King saw a chance to win now with KG and Paul, he gambled, he lost. That is why they call it gambling Danny.

#2. In reality the Nets traded a 2016 and 18 #1 pick for a chance at a Title. Do you actually think the Nets organization gives a f##k about those picks. They have a core group. They will never be a Lottery Team and if they are, its like OKC was this year #13 or 14 which gets you a legit player if your lucky!

Moral to my story is. The KG deal sounds great on paper, in reality it sucks dogsh!t! Your not going to get a top 3 lottery pick with a Nets pick, long as they have the core group above playing in the NBA.
Why do you think Ainge was offering 12 picks to get Winslow? Nets picks are worthless.

Today's news. Im not a talent evaluator and nor is anyone else on this board. Far as the draft, who knows what the first 2 picks will do. But what I do know is, Cavs exploited every weakness Boston had. The experts on this Blog say we had 23 mill in Cap money.
WHY WASN"T MONROE SIGNED?

Maybe Monroe didn't wanna come here? Ever think of that one genius? Just because a "report" says "The Celtics are the front-runners" doesn't make it true. And even if he did wanna come here, maybe Ainge and Stevens didn't wanna add a C who can't play defense AT ALL?. We have a couple of those already. A case can easily be made that Monroe IS NOT a 16mil a year player. It's just funny, you say "WHY WASNT MONROE SIGNED" like all Ainge had to do was wave his magic wand and poof, Greg Monroe.

BTW, when it comes to guys like Love, LMA, Jordan and the like, rest assured that the C's certainly let their people know that they wanted them and were willing to offer the max. It's been reported that Love had legit interest in taking that max if Cleveland didn't offer the deal they did. Just the fact that you think Ainge didn't let those guys know he was willing to give them the max makes me question how much you really know about how NBA basketball works. Every team with cap-space let those guys know they were willing to give them the max.

Matter of fact, as it seems you've forgotten, the Nets weren't even a .500 team last season where that "core" you speak of ( a core with a 38 year old ISO Joe, and a shell of his former self D-Will, both of whom the Nets are desperate to get rid of) was as healthy as they'll ever be with Brook Lopez playing the best basketball of his life. Your gonna bet on that "core" doing that again for the next 3 years (we also own a pick swap from them in 2017) with them all another year or two older? Haha, right.

And you know what else? Every single one of those four Nets picks could be in the 14-17 range and that's STILL one of the most grossly lopsided trades in recent NBA history. KG was cooked at that point, Pierce was on his last legs. Those guys weren't worth 1/5 of the stuff the Nets have up for them. In case you've also forgotten, that trade wasn't just responsible for the picks, but also for Tyler Zeller and Isaiah Thomas. People like your boy Sawicki made this huge stink about how Ainge "didn't get in on that Sacto deal Hinkie just made" when Hinkie took on like 26 million in dead salary over multiple seasons for a former "NBA-ready" #10 pick who absolutely sucked in his first year, a top 10 protected 1st, and a pick swap they'll probably never use. The Brooklyn deal makes that trade look like pittance, even if the picks are all Mid-1sts.

FWIW, Charlotte was absolutely ridiculed for not taking that deal just to take Frank Kaminsky, and they were the only realistic trade partner left on draft night. You can keep thinking that makes our picks worthless all you want, but it doesn't make it true. The Nets are one Brook Lopez injury (A pretty probable occurrence, given his history) away from a bottom 5 finish. We own their picks for the next 3 seasons, so the chances are pretty [dang] high that at least one or two of those picks ends up in the top 10.

Look, I get it. To some of you who don't really understand how this league works, this off-season was a major disappointment. He'll, it was even a disappointment to me and I'm an optimist. But as it sits right now we have a better team than Brooklyn with a MUCH better long term outlook. If the people around here are gonna say "this Celtics team is a lottery team" or "the East has gotten so much better we won't reach 40 wins" then Brooklyn sure isn't making the playoffs either. But that's okay, keep buying into this whole "stuck in perpetual mediocrity" nonsense that has absolutely no basis in fact. No one is gonna get through to you guys anyway. Just be sure that this team is assuredly NOT tanking this year so if it really bothers you that much, I'd suggest sitting this season out.

for starters i agree with your point about Monroe and the top level guys, all I'd add is that we should never get our hopes up as fans anyway, of landing the elite FAs in any given year.  They'd never come here, certainly not until we have at least one established superstar already in place.

Secondly, before you go accusing people of not understanding how the league works, you need to think about re-reading what you write.  you just said we aren't going to be stuck in mediocrity long term, and then go on to say we have a better long term outlook than Brooklyn (which isn't saying much anyway, but...) huh?  so we aren't going to be in purgatory long term, but you already say we have a much better long term outlook than a team that's probably going to be in the hunt for the 6-9 seed for the next 2-3 years.  so what exactly is the point you are trying to make?  if anything you just reiterated and confirmed the outlook alot of us around here have of this being a 37-43 win team for a while.

oh, and the only multiple year salary that's worthless which Philly added in that deal, is a single year of Carl Landry, for $6M.  what a burden.  otherwise they landed pick swaps and another 1st outright from a team that literally cannot give their money away to any FAs, much less decide on who the in house decision maker is.  not to mention Stauskus could be an asset, could be nothing, but has an option after this season if it turns out he's the latter. 

so instead of trying to go through your thesaurus for sarcastic names to call people, maybe you should sit back and really analyze what's been going on this offseason.  did we take a step forward?  i personally beg to differ but i can understand why people think we did.  but we certainly didn't create a top 3 team in the East by just re-signing our guys and adding Amir Johnson.  we went from 38 wins last year (where, again, we had A LOT of stuff go right for us all year) to a team that AT BEST looks like a 44-46 win on paper.  at best.

i understand why people so vehemently defend Danny's actions.  and i understand any rebuild requires fans to be patient.  I'm not throwing in the towel on the team and saying they're beyond help.  but there absolutely is a chance that the game has passed Danny by.  he's overvalued our picks and players (2 points to be made there: 1 - i'm on record with saying it's a [dang] good thing Cha turned down our trade on draft night, but what in the hell was DA doing offering all that up for a guy who has the ceiling of a poor man's Luol Deng anyway?!  if anything all that did was prove that Danny is more out of touch with reality than it does show that he's the trader Danny of old.  2 - Rozier wasn't even a terrible pick by any means, and i think he's going to be a solid pro at worst, but honestly, he may even have a higher upside than Smart/Bradley anyway.  so why the hell did we take a tweener guard last season when the draft was chock full of athletic big men that have just as good a chance to develop into something special in Randle, Vonleh, etc.  everyone knows big men, especially those that can stretch the floor, are the most unique asset that you need in today's nba to have success. obviously i'm not saying Vonleh should have been our pick at 6 last year because DA should have seen that Rozier would be our pick last year, but again, it's just an example of what could be considered short sightedness by our gm).

You have your opinion on the moves, i have mine.  obviously neither of us are going to change the other's mind, no matter how hurtful the creative insults like 'genius' are.  i want to be wrong, i'd love us to turn around and be an ECF contender and have the guys we have develop into some sort of championship core to build around, i just don't see it, at all.  but if you think this is a team that's headed for great things in the next year or two, you may want to heed your own advice at the end of your masterpiece there and sit this season out.  because i have a feeling that you aren't going to like the road Ainge has put us on.

If that's the kind of name you would consider hurtful, I just don't know man.

We do have a much better long term outlook than Brooklyn. By that I mean We have a hoard of draft picks, major financial flexibility, and a good young team that is improving. Brooklyn has none of that at the moment. They have to pray to the gods that Lopez stays healthy enough over the next two or three years to keep them in the hunt for the eighth seed as the entire conference, including us, gets better around them. That's a very bad place to be. I never wish injury on guys (Save once or twice on Kobe and Wade on an honest day), but the chances are pretty high Lopez goes down for a significant stretch and there a bottom 5 team. We, on the other hand, are trending up, regardless of what some of the pessimist around here might say. We have a legit chance of getting much better over the next few years, be it through trade, the draft or internal improvement. The Nets will need everything to fall their way just to not get much, much worse.

That's the difference. They'll be lucky to be stuck in mediocrity. We haven't even begun to get stuck in such a place. We went from 3rd worst record in the league to a.500 playoff team in ONE season. We finished the season on a tear, regardless of how out matched we were against a fully loaded Cleveland team. I'm not saying it's impossible that we could be a few years from now, but get back to me when we have 3 or 4 straight 1st round exits. And btw, we won 40 games last year. And up until the IT trade 2/3 of the way through the year, we had a whole lotta stuff go wrong.

I think most people who find themselves defending Ainge all the time do so because they feel like the overall Boston sports fan base is spoiled, and they've forgotten what it's like to be a team like the Kings. We were seriously mismanaged for well over a decade. Some of the folks here have really pessimistic view of this club, almost to the point of the extreme. And while others have far too optimistic views, they're certainly not the majority. Ainge could be making Dolanesque moves that ruin any hope we ever have at a championship and that's not at all the case. I guess my thing is, if your gonna follow a club to closely that you lurch around a blog forum, why be so negative where there really isn't all that much negative going on?

For example, when you were talking about the draft you said you mentioned that last draft was full of athletic bigs, but they weren't the kind we were looking for. Bigs who can stretch the floor are a unique asset. We have a couple of those already and Randle is certainly not that. He's an undersized PF with hardly any offensive game outside of 5 feet and who can't play defense. Judging by their first seasons (which to he fair you can't judge all too heavily) Smart was the right pick there. It's not like Ainge could see into the future and knew he would take Rozier at 16. He probably figured we'd have another top 10 pick.

Believe me, I'm under no illusions that this team as currently constructed is making a championship run in the immediate future. But considering how we JUST finished tearing down the remnants of our old foundation last season, I'm not so impatient that I expect them too either. I think this club made great strides at the end of last season, Ainge has set us up as well as anyone for the future and I really enjoy watching our team of tough, young well-coached players be greater than the sum of their parts. Were establishing an excellent culture here of talented young guys who play the right way. More moves are too come, that much is certain. But we have a great foundation to build on. There's a lot to be excited about. I'll join you guys when we've fought our way to four straight 7th and 8th seed but until then, there's no reason to be so pessimistic. Don't enough things in life already suck? Why take the joy of watching your favorite team away?

sarcasm man.  thought that was pretty clear.  i'm a New Englander after all

Re: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2015, 12:08:09 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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A lot of this thread seems to assume the Kings are going to continue to suck.

I'm not sure they will.  I don't think they will be great, but they have a chance to improve significantly.  They certainly look to me like they will be better than Philly over the next two seasons.

Given that it is the West, it's hard to see them doing anything in the playoffs.  But they could potentially knock on the door to get into the playoffs.

Finishing with a better record than the 76ers isn't the only issue though. Suppose the Kings finish 8th-10th but get a top 3 pick via the lottery - they probably lose that pick.

Granted, these are low-probability events, but even the 8th slot has a 10% chance of moving into the top 3 and a shot at a franchise player. The Kings have foreclosed that scenario - and for what? One year of Rondo?

They also just added Koufos.  Marc Stein (ESPN) reports 4 years, 33M.

So they are looking at a lineup that includes a top-8 rotation of:  Cousins, Gay, Rondo, Bellini, Koufos, WCS, Collison and Maclemore.

So they now have a ton of beef up front (including one of the most gifted big men in the game in Cousins), a very good scoring forward in Gay, very good perimeter shooting in Bellini, Maclemore & Collison and a playmaker who is at his best when surrounded by that combination of factors.  And Karl is a very good coach.

I know they are in the West.  But barring injury -- or chemical explosion -- I think the odds of that team ending up in the top 10 are ridiculously small.  That team looks on paper as legit as any to fight for the 8th seed.   And even if they miss, they are not going into the lottery with anything but the most microscopic odds.  I think the odds of that team picking higher than 12th are pretty tiny.

I don't think any of that was done 'for one year of Rondo'.  Every other contract goes beyond this next year.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2015, 12:47:50 AM »

Offline sawick48

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just as a follow up to those saying they don't see the value in what the 6ers got from the Kings:

the 2018 1st round pick the 6ers get is top 10 protected.  the pick is unprotected in 2019.  so that again, the Sacremento Kings, a franchise that cannot decide on it's top decision maker, whether or not to trade it's best player, and a team that literally cannot give its money away to any players of importance, are likely to have given the 76ers an unprotected first round pick.

does everyone see why it's a great trade now?

Re: i was absolutely fine with our moves so far....
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2015, 01:07:37 AM »

Offline GetLucky

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On a slightly-related note, I hope the Kings become relevant again. During their "Greatest Show on Court" era, they were the most fun team to watch and their fans were great. I also personally believe that Rick Adelman is the most underrated coach of all time simply because he never won a ring. C-Webb's injury really ruined a potential dynasty. 

I still think that 2002 WCF vs. the Lakers was rigged, by the way.