Danny Should Say to Brad: Thanks for Costing Us Winslow, Dude

[saltlover]

Coaches have relatively little to do with winning and losing compared to the players on the roster.

So, the players on Boston's roster last season were substantially better than the players in Charlotte, Orlando, Brooklyn, Philly, Miami, New York, Indiana, Detroit, Sacramento, Utah, Phoenix, LA, Minnesota and Denver?  That doesn't seem to jibe with the general attitude around here toward the team.

Mike

The Celtics had really good chemistry, a lot of luck, a good regular season game plan, and a whole bunch of guys playing for their next pay check.  They also had quality depth.  All of those things helped them win more games than expected.  They were also very well coached, which helped too.

Having depth and good chemistry is different than being able to say that the best two or three players on the roster can stand up well next to the best players on the other teams around the league.  That's where the Celts fall short, and that's a big part of why they were completely hopeless in the playoffs, where elite players make the biggest difference.


The Celtics won 40 games last season, sure, but if you were to judge their roster based on the collection of talent at the top -- i.e. how good are the best players on the team -- they had one of the least talented rosters in the league.  Indeed, they were right there with the Lakers, Timberwolves, Knicks, and Nuggets.

Not going to get into the other things you said, but the bolded phrase isn't really true.  Their pending free agents post deadline, when the team really started to click, were Bass, Crowder, Jerebko, Datome, Pressey (sort of) and Shav/Babb.  That's three of their top 9 in the rotation, but that's not unusual in a league that's greatly limited contact length -- certainly it isn't demonstrably different from any other team.

Okay, I lied.  Having good chemistry (both in court and off) is coaching job 1a or 1b.  If you say the team won because the players had good chemistry, that's a lot on the coach, especially given the high amount of roster turnover last year. 


Edit: upon re-reading I'm not sure how much we disagree or not.  I really can't tell if you were trying to say coaches didn't deserve much credit.  But the C's didn't have a bunch of free agents waiting to get paid when they were playing well.

[RockinRyA]

Which is to say, the point of a discussion forum is to discuss. The quality of the thoughts isn't something you can control.

That, and also I would hazard a guess that at least a few of the many people posting here, who spend lots of their time watching, following, discussing, and learning about professional basketball are actually more knowledgeable than at least some of the nitwits who have managed to find themselves in the position of General Manager in the NBA at some point in the league's history.

The idea that fans are so much less knowledgeable than the guys working in front offices holds less water now than it did 15 or 20 years ago.  That's not to say that most people expressing opinions on the Internet -- including myself -- are more cut out to perform the job of GM than any of the guys currently doing that job every day. 

Still, I think you can legitimately analyze and, yes, criticize the way that GMs operate without having to be a professional.  They're not performing heart surgery.

Well theres a lot of thought processes going on, and I doubt any of the posters here know even half of it- coaches input, owner input, opposing team demands, player medicals, interviews, workout assesments, to make a very good guess on what was the best decision.

[celticsclay]

Which is to say, the point of a discussion forum is to discuss. The quality of the thoughts isn't something you can control.

That, and also I would hazard a guess that at least a few of the many people posting here, who spend lots of their time watching, following, discussing, and learning about professional basketball are actually more knowledgeable than at least some of the nitwits who have managed to find themselves in the position of General Manager in the NBA at some point in the league's history.

The idea that fans are so much less knowledgeable than the guys working in front offices holds less water now than it did 15 or 20 years ago.  That's not to say that most people expressing opinions on the Internet -- including myself -- are more cut out to perform the job of GM than any of the guys currently doing that job every day. 

Still, I think you can legitimately analyze and, yes, criticize the way that GMs operate without having to be a professional.  They're not performing heart surgery.

Well theres a lot of thought processes going on, and I doubt any of the posters here know even half of it- coaches input, owner input, opposing team demands, player medicals, interviews, workout assesments, to make a very good guess on what was the best decision.

it is a fair point to make that we don't have as much access to information as Danny does. For example, a lot of us would have probably taken Upshaw with the 45th pick based on the information that was available. The fact that no team considered drafting him to me suggests this was because of information we didn't have.

[PhoSita]

Edit: upon re-reading I'm not sure how much we disagree or not.  I really can't tell if you were trying to say coaches didn't deserve much credit.  But the C's didn't have a bunch of free agents waiting to get paid when they were playing well.

I think the coach had a part to play, but I think having a constantly shifting roster of guys eager to prove themselves (and earn their next paycheck) played a big part.

Mostly I was responding to the question about the Celts having better players than the guys on all of those other teams.

I think the Celtics have a worse roster than most other teams in the league when you're looking solely at talent.  But there's more that goes into how many games a team wins in the regular season than just the talent on board.

You're right that only Bass, Jerebko, Datome, and Crowder were playing for free agent money.  Pressey can be added in there, though, because his deal is non-guaranteed.

That's a big chunk of the guys who were playing at the end of the season.  Then add in the fact that Isaiah Thomas was eager as heck to prove the Suns and Kings made a mistake in moving on from him so quickly. 

I just think it wasn't a surprise that the team generally outhustled and outworked opponents down the stretch.  Also not surprising that it didn't matter once the playoffs rolled around.

[footey]

Hard to take a thread seriously that has the word 'Dude' in the title.

Since when are threads supposed to be taken so seriously?

[Cman]

Danny Should Say to Celtics Fans:
"Thanks for your Twitter Reactions But I'm Still Hard at Work Here So Please Keep Your Day Job."

[manl_lui]

"thanks for being a great coach?"

[Cman]

Danny Should Say to Celtics Fans:
"Thanks for your Twitter Reactions But I'm Still Hard at Work Here So Please Keep Your Day Job."

[GreenPride17]

Brad would leave to go to the University of Indiana, that would be awful. Blame Brad all you want but he showed he could take a team full of role players to the Playoffs. If Danny was able to get Okafor, I have no doubt in my mind he would've turned him into a superstar

BTW: What if Winslow became Jeff Green JR

[Celtics18]

Coaches have relatively little to do with winning and losing compared to the players on the roster.

So, the players on Boston's roster last season were substantially better than the players in Charlotte, Orlando, Brooklyn, Philly, Miami, New York, Indiana, Detroit, Sacramento, Utah, Phoenix, LA, Minnesota and Denver?  That doesn't seem to jibe with the general attitude around here toward the team.

Mike

The Celtics had really good chemistry, a lot of luck, a good regular season game plan, and a whole bunch of guys playing for their next pay check.  They also had quality depth.  All of those things helped them win more games than expected.  They were also very well coached, which helped too.

Having depth and good chemistry is different than being able to say that the best two or three players on the roster can stand up well next to the best players on the other teams around the league.  That's where the Celts fall short, and that's a big part of why they were completely hopeless in the playoffs, where elite players make the biggest difference.


The Celtics won 40 games last season, sure, but if you were to judge their roster based on the collection of talent at the top -- i.e. how good are the best players on the team -- they had one of the least talented rosters in the league.  Indeed, they were right there with the Lakers, Timberwolves, Knicks, and Nuggets.

Personally, I don't think that's the best way to judge a roster.  Building a team is about a lot more than a straight accounting of talent.

[Jonny CC]

Lol, I'm sure Danny is mad that he hired a coach so intelligent and successful that no matter how hard he tries, he can't make the Celtics into a bad team.

That makes sense.

Agreed.  Such a silly premise. Ainge has no one to blame but himself for the success of the C's. He's the one who hired Stevens and improved the team by getting IT, Zeller, Crowder, etc. 

[PhoSita]

Coaches have relatively little to do with winning and losing compared to the players on the roster.

So, the players on Boston's roster last season were substantially better than the players in Charlotte, Orlando, Brooklyn, Philly, Miami, New York, Indiana, Detroit, Sacramento, Utah, Phoenix, LA, Minnesota and Denver?  That doesn't seem to jibe with the general attitude around here toward the team.

Mike

The Celtics had really good chemistry, a lot of luck, a good regular season game plan, and a whole bunch of guys playing for their next pay check.  They also had quality depth.  All of those things helped them win more games than expected.  They were also very well coached, which helped too.

Having depth and good chemistry is different than being able to say that the best two or three players on the roster can stand up well next to the best players on the other teams around the league.  That's where the Celts fall short, and that's a big part of why they were completely hopeless in the playoffs, where elite players make the biggest difference.


The Celtics won 40 games last season, sure, but if you were to judge their roster based on the collection of talent at the top -- i.e. how good are the best players on the team -- they had one of the least talented rosters in the league.  Indeed, they were right there with the Lakers, Timberwolves, Knicks, and Nuggets.

Personally, I don't think that's the best way to judge a roster.  Building a team is about a lot more than a straight accounting of talent.

Of course it is.  There are plenty of other ways to judge a roster.  Talent is a necessary but not a sufficient component for winning meaningful games.

You don't even need it to win some regular season games.  Case in point: this year's team.

Still, it is the factor that looms largest at this point in the rebuild.

[cb8883]

Brad Stevens wanted to show how good a coach he is by beating out teams (Miami, Charlotte) that were injured and probably decided to tank, costing us the chance of getting a Winslow with the 10th pick.   Danny reportedly offered three 1st round picks to trade up to the 9th spot (Charlotte's) just to get Winslow.  Danny works his butt off wheeling and dealing to accumulate the assets (picks), and Brad decides not to play along, and sneaks into the playoffs, to build character and experience for guys many of whom won't be with the team next season, or for the long term.  Just to experience getting swept by the Cavs. 

I wonder what Danny is thinking right now about Brad.  I'd be kind of upset if I were him.

We now have a glut of guards, just like we have a glut of picks.  No one will offer fair value, because they smell blood: They will only offer pennies on the dollar because they know Danny is desperate to dump his overstock of guards. 

We went into full tank mode the wrong year. The top 10 picks in this draft are much better than last year's.  Justin Winslow went 10th!!

Ainge and Stevens need to get on the same page, before we waste more of our precious "assets."

We have no real assets and wasted draft picks the last two years because we were afraid to tank. The Tank needs to be embraced, just like Philadelphia.

I'm hoping coach k retires so Stevens leaves. He isn't the coach we need for tanking

[hodgy03038]

I am not a fan of tanking. Can Philly be proud of what they have been doing? Are they done tanking or will they continue to tank so they can get lottery picks every year and never actually try to win. Is it their 20-year rebuilding plan?

I say Karma has already started for them with Embid.

[GC003332]

Brad Stevens wanted to show how good a coach he is by beating out teams (Miami, Charlotte) that were injured and probably decided to tank, costing us the chance of getting a Winslow with the 10th pick.   Danny reportedly offered three 1st round picks to trade up to the 9th spot (Charlotte's) just to get Winslow.  Danny works his butt off wheeling and dealing to accumulate the assets (picks), and Brad decides not to play along, and sneaks into the playoffs, to build character and experience for guys many of whom won't be with the team next season, or for the long term.  Just to experience getting swept by the Cavs. 

I wonder what Danny is thinking right now about Brad.  I'd be kind of upset if I were him.

We now have a glut of guards, just like we have a glut of picks.  No one will offer fair value, because they smell blood: They will only offer pennies on the dollar because they know Danny is desperate to dump his overstock of guards. 

We went into full tank mode the wrong year. The top 10 picks in this draft are much better than last year's.  Justin Winslow went 10th!!

Ainge and Stevens need to get on the same page, before we waste more of our precious "assets."

We have no real assets and wasted draft picks the last two years because we were afraid to tank. The Tank needs to be embraced, just like Philadelphia.

I'm hoping coach k retires so Stevens leaves. He isn't the coach we need for tanking