Ainge on Toucher and Rich This Morning

[LooseCannon]

James Toscano @Jimmy_Toscano
Heard Celtics offered 4 picks (at least 3 of them 1st-round) for No. 9. Both firsts yesterday, assume Dal protected and another protected.

These reports are not good. Danny's vaunted "treasure chest" of picks could not move us up from the late lottery to the mid-lottery in an average draft year...I mean it doesn't sound like he was offering up the best picks, but still.

I take it with a grain of salt.  Washington was able to move up 3 spots in the first by adding 2 second rounders to their pick.  makes me wonder why some GMs have that level of evaluation of picks while others such as Charlotte wouldn't move a pick for a mediocre prospect for several firsts.

Because some teams are bad at evaluating talent.

[LarBrd33]

James Toscano @Jimmy_Toscano
Heard Celtics offered 4 picks (at least 3 of them 1st-round) for No. 9. Both firsts yesterday, assume Dal protected and another protected.

So then it was 16, 28, 2016 (Dallas) and 2019 (Boston).

I thought it would've been 16, 28,  2016 (Dallas) OR 2019 (Boston), and Olynyk (who does everything Kaminsky does).

If you read into Danny's quotes it sounds like he wanted winslow there.. And then when the hornets took Kaminsky he was like, "are you freakin high?  You turned down that offer so you could take Kaminsky "... Then winslow fell into miami's lap, but Riley isn't a tard so he kept him.

[Snakehead]

James Toscano @Jimmy_Toscano
Heard Celtics offered 4 picks (at least 3 of them 1st-round) for No. 9. Both firsts yesterday, assume Dal protected and another protected.

So then it was 16, 28, 2016 (Dallas) and 2019 (Boston).

I thought it would've been 16, 28,  2016 (Dallas) OR 2019 (Boston), and Olynyk (who does everything Kaminsky does).

If you read into Danny's quotes it sounds like he wanted winslow there.. And then when the hornets took Kaminsky he was like, "are you freakin high?  You turned down that offer so you could take Kaminsky "... Then winslow fell into miami's lap, but Riley isn't a tard so he kept him.

It also sounds like a Brooklyn pick was involved.

But yeah this is exactly what I'm thinking happened.  No one was more interested in trading up than me but if teams overvalue the picks then I'm not buying them.  I though Ainge was right on with this from the Jay King piece:

According to a source inside the Celtics front office, the team targeted Justise Winslow as high as No. 4, and tried to grab him again when he was still available at No. 9. But a major offer loaded with draft picks – Ainge hinted it might have included at least one of Brooklyn's future unprotected first-rounders – wasn't enough to get the Charlotte Hornets to pass on the opportunity to draft Frank Kaminsky.

"(The future picks) are worth a lot, (but) I think the draft is probably the time where they're least valuable, simply because people get so caught up in players," Ainge said on the radio. "Without mentioning names, there are some players that were drafted at certain spots (by teams) that turned down lots of draft picks that I just don't think was smart on their part.

"But I think our assets have value. On draft day, typically those are hard deals to move. People get so caught up and get so in love with a specific player that that player in their minds becomes bigger than life."

Ainge believed the team, or teams, that turned him down "were just determined to take a guy that they liked."

"I think that they may end up regretting not doing it in some of the cases," he said. "Everybody going into the draft, they're looking for somebody who is a transcendent player. I think they're all a little bit overvalued when it gets to the time of the draft.

[LooseCannon]

Reading this bit:

“In hindsight, the next day, it’s probably a good thing. We were probably going to spend too much to do what we needed to do,” Ainge said. “This morning I wake up, and I’m refreshed that we got guys that we like but also that we didn’t overspend for some of the players that were in the draft — actually just basically one player we were chasing that we thought we had a realistic chance at.”

makes it sound like there was little interest in moving up to get WCS and Winslow was always the target of any trade talks.

[fairweatherfan]

If that rumored offer is correct, I can't fault Ainge for both refusing to go higher and being frustrated by the decision.  But I guess when you've got a chance to draft Frank Kaminsky at #9 you've gotta jump on it.  Especially when you've just cut bait on your last #9 reach.

[bdm860]

We were dangling a 2019 unprotected 1st, and we're surprised the teams weren't biting?  Not only does Danny plan (and hope) to be a contending team by 2019, but a lot of teams aren't really interested in getting an asset 4 years out from now.

Yeah.

Once again, I get the sense that Danny tries too hard to screw over his trade partners, rather than attempting to reach a mutually beneficial agreement.  Other GMs can see that.  There are fewer stupid GMs in the league now than there were a decade ago.

I wonder if this is really it, or if it's the opposite, as in every GM knows about the KG/Pierce-to-Brooklyn deal,  so that's the standard that all other GMs hope to get no matter who they're trading with.  "I know those kind of deals happen, so I'm not settling for anything thing less than $3.50 on the dollar!"

Has Danny really screwed over his trade partners?  Besides the KG/Pierce trade, most of his major deals seem pretty fair to me:

Rondo for a 1st and pieces
Green for Perk
#5 for Ray Allen
Big Al, two 1sts, and a couple of prospects for KG

Did anybody think any one was screwed in those deals?  Especially when they first happened?

I really think it's like when I play Monopoly with my wife.  I have 2 red properties and 1 orange, while she has 1 red and 2 oranges.

I offer her my orange for her red, one-for-one straight up.  She doesn't take it.  "Red's more valuable."

Okay I'll throw in $100 to even it out, even if I don't think it's fair deal, just to make a deal. "No, red's too valuable."

Okay, then I'll trade you two reds, for your two oranges.  "No, not interested in that either."

Just to make a deal, I'll throw in the utilities I own too.  "[Laughs] not enough, why would I want those"

So finally I ask, what’s it going to take to either get that 1 red?  And she replies with “Your 1 orange, your 2 railroads (giving her all 4), Park Place, Marvin Gardens, Atlantic, St. Charles, and $1,000.”

She’ll never trade that one-for-one deal that makes sense for both of us.  She’ll hold that property for ransom until I give her everything I own.  She’s too worried about me getting ahead to even think about what makes sense for her.  Man, I hate playing Monopoly with my wife…

That’s how I think some other GM’s are.  Sully and #16 for #9?  Nope that makes too much sense, I’m not giving up #9 for less than 4 future unprotected 1sts, Sully, Smart, and Olynyk.


I think a lot of GMs are unreasonable at draft time.

[LarBrd33]

Mike Gorman was also on the show this morning and I like some the quotes he said

paraphrasing

"Danny was aggressive trying to get into the top 3, and would have pulled the trigger, problem is some GMs are scared to pull trigger thinking in the long run they will get screwed by Danny"

"Danny has a reputation in coming out the ultimate winner in some of the trades he did, usually selling nothing for something"

"GMs around the league are scared to pull triggers because if they stand pat, anything goes wrong, they can fire the coach, but if they made the wrong trade, the GM gets fired...Danny on the other hand is not afraid to pull triggers, but that doesn't mean the other GMs want to pull the trigger"

that's the gist of it, maybe someone who listened to the show as well, can quote it better

I was actually going to create a thread about this. I've seen this happen in my fantasy leagues. Someone gains a reputation of being a "snake oil salesman" after pulling off a couple deals and suddenly nobody wants to trade with the guy even when he's offering excessive overpays. Danny was giving up 4 picks to take Winslow at 9, probably.  Hornets were too scared to do it... And then they end up taking Kaminsky.  That's just silly. 

It's the kind of reputation one gets after getting 4 first rounders out of a 1-year kg/pierce rental.  It's the kind of reputation one gets after moving "vets" for picks and then seeing those vets brutally exposed in a new system (rondo). When you step back and look at ainge's career, he's one of the only GM's ever who has successfully built a champion via trade.  Golden state drafted their boys.  Miami drafted wade and signed free agents because of him.  Dallas drafted dirk. Spurs drafted Duncan. Lakers essentially drafted kobe and signed Shaq.   Just keep going back further and further... Rarely do you see a situation where a GM creates a champion by trading for a Superstar like KG.  It might be hurting bostons trade talks right now when they try selling smart... Who ultimately might not be that good.

[GC003332]

Charlotte annually has problems with attendance, any chance you can get a 'Star' guy of a certain ethnicity to pull in bigger crowds, you do it, Jordan is a business man 1st and foremost.

[M.A.]

I really wish I knew what the offer for the 9th pick was.

I saw that it was at least 3 first round draft picks that were included in the package for the 9th pick. Charlotte decided that Frank was the better direction for their franchise.

[kozlodoev]

I think a lot of GMs are unreasonable at draft time.

Including Ainge. The rumored offer for #9 is just nuts.

[hodgy03038]

Im glad we didn't trade up for Turner. Im not fond of bigs that have trouble running the floor. I get nightmares of Acie Earl. 

Im also glad we passed on Dekker. I think Celtics really value James Young's potential.

I think James Young could be a key in all of this.  We constantly hear that if he had stayed in school another year and came out this year, he would've been a sure-fire top 10 pick.  The question is, does he have the drive to become as good as his potential, because Gerald Wallace was definitely questioning it.

James Young? Really? Have you seen him play? I doubt he is even in the league this time next year unless it's still with the Red Claws. After about 5 misses he may make a shot and he cannot get his own shot. He is too thin and not very athletic. It is really a joke that we still covet this guy. Hate to say it but he was a real bust. Try to trade him for a rack of new basketballs for practice. Datome is much better than Young who for some reason people think is good. Based on what?

[wayupnorth]

I hope he resigns

Please

Why?

Why on earth?

Because you think you are smarter than him and know better than him?

Get over yourself.

[GetLucky]

We were dangling a 2019 unprotected 1st, and we're surprised the teams weren't biting?  Not only does Danny plan (and hope) to be a contending team by 2019, but a lot of teams aren't really interested in getting an asset 4 years out from now.

Yeah.

Once again, I get the sense that Danny tries too hard to screw over his trade partners, rather than attempting to reach a mutually beneficial agreement.  Other GMs can see that.  There are fewer stupid GMs in the league now than there were a decade ago.

I wonder if this is really it, or if it's the opposite, as in every GM knows about the KG/Pierce-to-Brooklyn deal,  so that's the standard that all other GMs hope to get no matter who they're trading with.  "I know those kind of deals happen, so I'm not settling for anything thing less than $3.50 on the dollar!"

Has Danny really screwed over his trade partners?  Besides the KG/Pierce trade, most of his major deals seem pretty fair to me:

Rondo for a 1st and pieces
Green for Perk
#5 for Ray Allen
Big Al, two 1sts, and a couple of prospects for KG

Did anybody think any one was screwed in those deals?  Especially when they first happened?

I really think it's like when I play Monopoly with my wife.  I have 2 red properties and 1 orange, while she has 1 red and 2 oranges.

I offer her my orange for her red, one-for-one straight up.  She doesn't take it.  "Red's more valuable."

Okay I'll throw in $100 to even it out, even if I don't think it's fair deal, just to make a deal. "No, red's too valuable."

Okay, then I'll trade you two reds, for your two oranges.  "No, not interested in that either."

Just to make a deal, I'll throw in the utilities I own too.  "[Laughs] not enough, why would I want those"

So finally I ask, what’s it going to take to either get that 1 red?  And she replies with “Your 1 orange, your 2 railroads (giving her all 4), Park Place, Marvin Gardens, Atlantic, St. Charles, and $1,000.”

She’ll never trade that one-for-one deal that makes sense for both of us.  She’ll hold that property for ransom until I give her everything I own.  She’s too worried about me getting ahead to even think about what makes sense for her.  Man, I hate playing Monopoly with my wife…

That’s how I think some other GM’s are.  Sully and #16 for #9?  Nope that makes too much sense, I’m not giving up #9 for less than 4 future unprotected 1sts, Sully, Smart, and Olynyk.


I think a lot of GMs are unreasonable at draft time.

That Red-Orange corner is deadly. It's the only one that you can affordably expand that pays out enough. I always work at all costs to get those. Whenever my family plays Monopoly, everyone always shouts, "Buy it before he does!" if someone lands on red or orange. I always massively overpay (I once traded $5000 with two blue properties for a red) but still win anyway as long as I get all six.

I think Danny is the same way. It's reached a point where GM's are like, "Nope, I'm not trading with you. I see what you're trying to do, give me 'fair value' you sly dog." And Ainge is sitting there saying, "I'm offering four firsts for 7 spots, and it took Washington two seconds for four spots." The only difference is that there's no guaranteed victory if he overpays.

I can definitely see where reputation hurts Danny sometimes. TP for inciting my mini-Monopoly rant, by the way 

[Snakehead]

Mike Gorman was also on the show this morning and I like some the quotes he said

paraphrasing

"Danny was aggressive trying to get into the top 3, and would have pulled the trigger, problem is some GMs are scared to pull trigger thinking in the long run they will get screwed by Danny"

"Danny has a reputation in coming out the ultimate winner in some of the trades he did, usually selling nothing for something"

"GMs around the league are scared to pull triggers because if they stand pat, anything goes wrong, they can fire the coach, but if they made the wrong trade, the GM gets fired...Danny on the other hand is not afraid to pull triggers, but that doesn't mean the other GMs want to pull the trigger"

that's the gist of it, maybe someone who listened to the show as well, can quote it better

I was actually going to create a thread about this. I've seen this happen in my fantasy leagues. Someone gains a reputation of being a "snake oil salesman" after pulling off a couple deals and suddenly nobody wants to trade with the guy even when he's offering excessive overpays. Danny was giving up 4 picks to take Winslow at 9, probably.  Hornets were too scared to do it... And then they end up taking Kaminsky.  That's just silly. 

It's the kind of reputation one gets after getting 4 first rounders out of a 1-year kg/pierce rental.  It's the kind of reputation one gets after moving "vets" for picks and then seeing those vets brutally exposed in a new system (rondo). When you step back and look at ainge's career, he's one of the only GM's ever who has successfully built a champion via trade. 

Another angle to this that I've been a bit afraid of is that other GMs also know you have assets and so suddenly their offers are just higher.  They aren't willing to take a great offer from anyone they need more because they know you have more.

Not saying that's what happened here but I can see it happening as we continue to gather a stockpile.

I'm okay with an overpay when we're stocked like this but I think it was already being offered to Charlotte for example and was turned down.  Any more would have been crazy.

[Snakehead]

Im glad we didn't trade up for Turner. Im not fond of bigs that have trouble running the floor. I get nightmares of Acie Earl. 

Im also glad we passed on Dekker. I think Celtics really value James Young's potential.

I think James Young could be a key in all of this.  We constantly hear that if he had stayed in school another year and came out this year, he would've been a sure-fire top 10 pick.  The question is, does he have the drive to become as good as his potential, because Gerald Wallace was definitely questioning it.

James Young? Really? Have you seen him play? I doubt he is even in the league this time next year unless it's still with the Red Claws. After about 5 misses he may make a shot and he cannot get his own shot. He is too thin and not very athletic. It is really a joke that we still covet this guy. Hate to say it but he was a real bust. Try to trade him for a rack of new basketballs for practice. Datome is much better than Young who for some reason people think is good. Based on what?

He's 19.  You make the pick and you know it takes about two years before you can even judge him.  He still has tons of potential.  I say that as someone who has disliked watching him play quite a bit so far because he is one of the worst defenders I've ever seen.  He still can be great.  I think he still does have All Star potential.

I like Hunter because I think he's already more ready to contribute.  But he doesn't have the potential of Young.  He has size, length, athleticism that is not teachable.