Author Topic: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt  (Read 7168 times)

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Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2015, 06:34:10 PM »

Offline clover

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CBS' head would explode, and mine probably would too. You can't run an offense with two starting bigs who aren't AT LEAST solid mid-range shooters, at least one of them has to be anyway, unless you have LeBron or KD on your team. It's not the 80s, just because Noel is athletic doesn't mean he can play the 4.

That's why if we get a real defensive C this year, one of Sully/KO has to stay unless Love comes. You need a big who can shoot and play big minutes.

Cousins is a solid mid-range shooter. He shot 383.% from 16-23 feet last year, with about a quarter of his offense from that range. He also shot just over 43% from that distance the year before on similar volume.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01.html

How is shooting 38% for long 2's a useful endeavor? Opponents would want him out taking that shot all game long.

I'm a Cousins fan, but he didn't average 40% at any distance over 3' this year. He may want to play the 4, but I'd want him battling down low at the 5.


Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2015, 06:34:26 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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There's no way we could get cousins or noel without including Marcus smart in a package.  No chance at both.

You make it sound like Cousins and Noel are equals. Your overrating of Noel continues and appears to have no limits. Let me know when he gains weight, his offensive game consists of at least one low post move, and any semblance of a perimeter game. In fact, let me know when he can do anything offensively aside from dunks and garbage points. I mean you do realize you're taking about a guy that shot 28% from 3-10 feet, 30% from 10-16 feet, and 60% from the line, right? Let those numbers sink in and then reevaluate.

I didn't say Cousins and Noel are equals.  I said that there's no chance you'd get either without including Marcus SMart in the package.   For either player, it would take a lot more than just Marcus Smart.  Clearly Cousins would cost us more than Noel.... either way, Smart is in the deal or they hang up the phone.

I'm not "overrating" NOel.  He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league and he's 20 years old.  He also has legit size for a center.   Teams don't give that away for backup power forwards and middling mid-round draft picks.   You'd have to at least give up Smart + #16... probably a lot more than that.  I see little incentive for Philly to do that now that they are adding DeAngelo Russell.

5-10 defensive player? Really?
Really. 

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2015, 06:45:40 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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There's no way we could get cousins or noel without including Marcus smart in a package.  No chance at both.

You make it sound like Cousins and Noel are equals. Your overrating of Noel continues and appears to have no limits. Let me know when he gains weight, his offensive game consists of at least one low post move, and any semblance of a perimeter game. In fact, let me know when he can do anything offensively aside from dunks and garbage points. I mean you do realize you're taking about a guy that shot 28% from 3-10 feet, 30% from 10-16 feet, and 60% from the line, right? Let those numbers sink in and then reevaluate.

I didn't say Cousins and Noel are equals.  I said that there's no chance you'd get either without including Marcus SMart in the package.   For either player, it would take a lot more than just Marcus Smart.  Clearly Cousins would cost us more than Noel.... either way, Smart is in the deal or they hang up the phone.

I'm not "overrating" NOel.  He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league and he's 20 years old.  He also has legit size for a center.   Teams don't give that away for backup power forwards and middling mid-round draft picks.   You'd have to at least give up Smart + #16... probably a lot more than that.  I see little incentive for Philly to do that now that they are adding DeAngelo Russell.

5-10 defensive player? Really?
Really.

I got to bust your chops a little this on, if he is 5-10 why did he finish 30th in all defensive team voting (right ahead of PJ Tucker and Pau Gasol). Since you have repeatedly posted the all rookie team voting in threads figured you view these as somewhat reasonable barometers.

I think he could become for this fore sure, but saying he is 5-10 at this point is over the top. 

Also on all defensive voting: pretty hilarious one person voted for wade and one person voted for rondo. You should probably get your voting privileges taken away if you vote for a guy that self admits he wasn't trying on defense for half the year.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 06:50:54 PM by celticsclay »

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2015, 06:50:25 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote from: LarBrd33
He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 07:04:49 PM by Roy H. »


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Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2015, 06:55:42 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.

That reads like I said that.

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2015, 06:57:36 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.

Has there been a player in the history of the NBA that has been a top 10 defensive (or even crazier top 5) in their rookie year in the NBA? That really doesn't make any sense or seem possible to me.

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2015, 07:07:28 PM »

Online Roy H.

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He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.

Has there been a player in the history of the NBA that has been a top 10 defensive (or even crazier top 5) in their rookie year in the NBA? That really doesn't make any sense or seem possible to me.

I'm going to say Russ. 

Duncan made All-Defense as a rookie.  I'm sure a few others have, as well.


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Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2015, 07:10:40 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.

Has there been a player in the history of the NBA that has been a top 10 defensive (or even crazier top 5) in their rookie year in the NBA? That really doesn't make any sense or seem possible to me.

I'm going to say Russ.

I should have qualified with Modern NBA. Not to discredit any of russel's accomplishments, but there were only 8 teams his rookie year right? That is a little different than someone entering into the league in the last 30 years.

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2015, 07:12:20 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Quote from: LarBrd33
He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.
Didn't he finish 8th in the league defensive rating?  I remember reading that post all-star break, philly had the best defense in the entire league in minutes noel was on the court.   He also limited opponents to 45% shooting at the rim... 6th in the league.   Philly's defense went from 26th the year prior to top-12.   What do you make of this stuff?  Google "Nerlens noel defense" and you'll find several articles about his rookie of the year credentials and historical defensive impact for a player his age.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 07:19:08 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2015, 07:20:17 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Quote from: LarBrd33
He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.
Didn't he finish 8th in the league defensive rating?  I remember reading that post all-star break, philly had the best defense in the entire league in minutes noel was on the court.   He also limited opponents to 45% shooting at the rim... 6th in the league.

Big Al finsihed 14th and Scola 20th so they're both top 20 defenders.

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2015, 07:23:50 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.

Has there been a player in the history of the NBA that has been a top 10 defensive (or even crazier top 5) in their rookie year in the NBA? That really doesn't make any sense or seem possible to me.

I'm going to say Russ. 

Duncan made All-Defense as a rookie.  I'm sure a few others have, as well.

really curious on the rookies making it. Pretty crazy Duncan did. Google couldn't help me answer this question.

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2015, 07:31:40 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Quote from: LarBrd33
He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.
Didn't he finish 8th in the league defensive rating?  I remember reading that post all-star break, philly had the best defense in the entire league in minutes noel was on the court.   He also limited opponents to 45% shooting at the rim... 6th in the league.

Big Al finsihed 14th and Scola 20th so they're both top 20 defenders.

Neat.  Where are the stats disproving Noel's defensive dominance as a 20 year old rookie coming off major surgery with a single limited season of college ball on his resume?  Only 20 times has anyone put up his blocks and steals... 10 of times times were Hakeem.  For the season philly was a top 12 defense.  24th with noel on the bench.  Top 3 with him playing.  You aren't getting a player with his potential for mediocre picks and players. It will take a package built around Marcus smart.

Side note:  in lowes recent podcast they actually talked about how Kevin love should study Luis scola to learn how to play defense with limited physical gifts.  They mentioned how Frank Vogel shows tape of him to reach young prospects verticality... Since he has none and makes the most of it with effort and defensive intangibles. So I'm not sure why you listed him...
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 07:38:56 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2015, 07:38:51 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Quote from: LarBrd33
He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.
Didn't he finish 8th in the league defensive rating?  I remember reading that post all-star break, philly had the best defense in the entire league in minutes noel was on the court.   He also limited opponents to 45% shooting at the rim... 6th in the league.

Big Al finsihed 14th and Scola 20th so they're both top 20 defenders.

Neat.  Where are the stats disproving Noel's defensive dominance as a 20 year old rookie coming off major surgery with a single limited season of college ball on his resume?  Only 20 times has anyone put up his blocks and steals... 10 of times times were Hakeem.  For the season philly was a top 12 defense.  24th with noel on the bench.  Top 3 with him playing.  You aren't getting a player with his potential for mediocre picks and players. It will take a package built around Marcus smart.

Listen, you could harp about him being a good defender all you want, which I'm not denying, only disagreeing at the pedestal (top 5-10 defender) you have him at. However, what you won't dare touch, and continue to ignore, is what a below average offensive player he is. Have you seen any improvement in him offensively since he was at Kentucky? So essentially what you're saying is that it would take Smart, #16 pick (say Portis), and "a lot more" for a one way player?

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2015, 07:39:47 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Quote from: LarBrd33
He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.
Didn't he finish 8th in the league defensive rating?  I remember reading that post all-star break, philly had the best defense in the entire league in minutes noel was on the court.   He also limited opponents to 45% shooting at the rim... 6th in the league.

Big Al finsihed 14th and Scola 20th so they're both top 20 defenders.

Neat.  Where are the stats disproving Noel's defensive dominance as a 20 year old rookie coming off major surgery with a single limited season of college ball on his resume?  Only 20 times has anyone put up his blocks and steals... 10 of times times were Hakeem.  For the season philly was a top 12 defense.  24th with noel on the bench.  Top 3 with him playing.  You aren't getting a player with his potential for mediocre picks and players. It will take a package built around Marcus smart.

Listen, you could harp about him being a good defender all you want, which I'm not denying, only disagreeing at the pedestal (top 5-10 defender) you have him at. However, what you won't dare touch, and continue to ignore, is what a below average offensive player he is. Have you seen any improvement in him offensively since he was at Kentucky? So essentially what you're saying is that it would take Smart, #16 pick (say Portis), and "a lot more" for a one way player?
Yep. 

Re: Cousins and Nerlens Noel Frontcourt
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2015, 07:40:49 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Quote from: LarBrd33
He just put up historical defensive numbers for a player his age.  He's already a top 5-10 defensive player in the league

The first sentence is true, the second isn't. 

In terms of blocks and steals, very few players have put them together in combination like Noel has.  He's an active defender, and fills up the stat sheet.

However, he's still a work in progress.  If you look at his synergy stats, there were some areas of defense that he really struggled with.

He was seventh in the league in Defensive Real Plus Minus.  I don't know how to get synergy stats, but was there anyone in the league who didn't struggle in at least some areas (including the defensive player of the year--Kawhi Leonard, and the people's defensive player of the year--Draymond Green)?
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