Author Topic: Let's build the Warriors Eastside  (Read 23769 times)

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Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2015, 04:07:36 PM »

Offline walker834

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Bird is also one of the most romanticized figures in the entire NBA. Particularly around here (no surprising).

If you look at anything approaching evidence, there's an argument in Curry's favor.

I disagree with you.  The NBA is completely different now. Curry is very quick and can shoot with the best of them but the game is much more open now.  If you look at the evidence its much more skewed that way.    The game is just much faster overall now.

The fact Bird was top of the league at the time every year and dominated it when it was much more physical and taxing on the body, is anything approaching evidence.  Curry hasn't done that.

If you look at any professional sport numbers have gone up because the games are more geared that way.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2015, 04:14:29 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Bird is also one of the most romanticized figures in the entire NBA. Particularly around here (no surprising).

If you look at anything approaching evidence, there's an argument in Curry's favor.

I disagree with you.  The NBA is completely different now. Curry is very quick and can shoot with the best of them but the game is much more open now.  If you look at the evidence its much more skewed that way.    The game is just much faster overall now.

The fact Bird was top of the league at the time every year and dominated it when it was much more physical and taxing on the body, is anything approaching evidence.  Curry hasn't done that.

If you look at any professional sport numbers have gone up because the games are more geared that way.

Hmm, no. The 80s was one of the fastest pace'd basketball eras with very lax defense. Defense is much tougher now, and the pace is much slower. Hand-checking is not allowed anymore, but defenses are more sophisticated nowadays than they were in the 80s. The 90s was one of the slowest pace'd eras with very, very physical defense but still meh defensive schemes. The 10s (right now) is pretty much a mix of 80s and 90s basketball. You have teams with the high flying offense of the 80s but also teams with the gritty defense of the 90s (GSW included).

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2015, 04:22:46 PM »

Offline walker834

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It was an open game but its even more open now.  The celtics were a halfcourt team with the guys they had and the lakers had showtime.   Players are more gifted physically and have it much easier now imo.  Players then weren't and the game was more taxing due to a lot of factors.

If you look at the numbers and everything in between and numbers now around the league there still is no comparison.  Bird put up better numbers with players on his team that were doing the same.  It's not even a debate.

The game is more open now.  Teams play faster and they aren't nearly as good.

no offense but it has nothing to do with romanitzing it.  Some kids today have it very easy and just aren't as good as their elders. They don't even know how to respect them.

Curry is very good but Bird would have destroyed him in his prime. 

Bird has 3 times the numbers, championships, averages and people are saying he is the best ever.  That's the problem.  It's not even close.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2015, 04:29:17 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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It was an open game but its even more open now.  The celtics were a halfcourt team with the guys they had and the lakers had showtime.   Players are more gifted physically and have it much easier now imo.  Players then weren't and the game was more taxing due to a lot of factors.

If you look at the numbers and everything in between and numbers now around the league there still is no comparison.  Bird put up better numbers with players on his team that were doing the same.  It's not even a debate.

The game is more open now.  Teams play faster and they aren't nearly as good.

no offense but it has nothing to do with romanitzing it.  Some kids today have it very easy and just aren't as good as their elders. They don't even know how to respect them.

Curry is very good but Bird would have destroyed him in his prime. 

Bird has 3 times the numbers, championships, averages and people are saying he is the best ever.  That's the problem.  It's not even close.

But the point is that the game isn't faster now. Like at all. Pace numbers are way down from the 80s. No offense, but there really is no argument to be made there. It's commonly understood that the 80s was one of the most open games this league has ever seen. You think the Celtics were a half court team in the 80s (and they were), but that was relative to their opponents. The 80s Celtics would be considered a fast break team nowadays with the amount of possessions and pace they played at.

Again, no one is saying Bird is a worse player...like at all. Curry still has a long way to go to prove himself anywhere on all time player lists, but he's done enough to be considered the best shooter ever. No issues with that. You are coupling ideas together and not looking at this objectively. It's why I dislike talking to Celtic fans about Bird sometimes. You say one thing, and the other person takes it in the complete wrong direction then where it was going.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 04:33:48 PM »

Offline walker834

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It's a generational thing i guess.  Everyone is the best ever before they even do it.  Bird did that.  It's like me as a kid saying Bird is better than Bill Russell. I never said that though. Ive seen both play.  Never got to see Russell.  But Curry  is not better than Bird.  Not even close.  In ways sure. He is faster and hits shots at a very fast efficient rate because the game is open like that but he still doesnt manage to do what bird did.

There were so many factors back then and conditions these guys were playing in. Everything. I wouldnt say Bird was better than Russell.   Bird had to earn that. Today its like greatest ever when he hasnt even done that.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2015, 04:36:39 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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It's a generational thing i guess.  Everyone is the best ever before they even do it.  Bird did that.  It's like me as a kid saying Bird is better than Bill Russell. I never said that though. Ive seen both play.  Never got to see Russell.  But Curry  is not better than Bird.  Not even close.  In ways sure. He is faster and hits shots at a very fast rate because the game is open like that but he still doesnt manage to do what bird did.

Oh my...gosh. Again. Best shooter =/= best player. What are you missing here?

No one is saying Curry is a better player. Just a better shooter, and I'm sorry, but the numbers will never support your cause when it comes to shooting. Curry is a better 3PT shooter than anyone. Unfortunately we will never know where Bird would be on this list because he played an era where the 3 ball was still on the rise.

For single season 3PT totals, Curry is already in the top 5 three times.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2015, 04:37:53 PM »

Offline walker834

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Curry is not a better shooter than bird. Bird would play down to teams and hit shots so clutch when you needed him too.  Thats not romanticizing him. That's how he was.  You needed a shot bird would hit it every time.

take curry and bird in horse.  Bird you need a shot there would be no contest.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2015, 04:42:50 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Curry is not a better shooter than bird. Bird would play down to teams and hit shots so clutch when you needed him too.  Thats not romanticizing him. That's how he was.  You needed a shot bird would hit it every time.

take curry and bird in horse.  Bird you need a shot there would be no contest.

What does this even mean? You are romanticizing him. You are essentially saying Bird shot worse so he could put daggers in people's hearts. Do you know how odd that sounds?

It's not fair to the 70s and 80s players I guess, but 3PT shooting is how players identify who are the best shooters ever. It's amazing that Bird is commonly in the top 3 shooters of all time despite not playing in a 3PT dependent era, but as long as Curry continues to shoot this way, he will be regarded as the best shooter ever. Like I said, he's already in the top 5 single season 3PT total list 3 times.

        Player           3P   Season   Tm
1.   Stephen Curry   286   2014-15   GSW
2.   Stephen Curry   272   2012-13   GSW
3.   Ray Allen           269   2005-06   SEA
4.   Dennis Scott   267   1995-96   ORL
5.   Stephen Curry 261   2013-14  GSW

Dennis Scott's season doesn't really count because it was on the shorter line.

Bird is by far the greater player, but I don't think you understand how historic Curry's shooting has already been.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2015, 04:46:19 PM »

Offline walker834

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I'm not romantizing him.  The game was different back then.  Bird was much more a clutch shooter.  He was a full grown man that way playing a kids game. He was so clutch and ice that way it was ridiculous.  It's not romantizing him if it's true. He really was that way. Most times when bird shot it you knew it was going in.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2015, 04:50:26 PM »

Offline walker834

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He was also a very intelligent shooter.  Players today are good but there will never be another player like him more than likely.  He was the best shooter ever and probably always will be.

Maybe someone will understand that and better him someday but I don't many players in the league that match him that way. Pierce is extremely clutch and an intelligent shooter.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2015, 04:51:32 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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I'm not romantizing him.  The game was different back then.  Bird was much more a clutch shooter.  He was a full grown man that way playing a kids game. He was so clutch and ice that way it was ridiculous.  It's not romantizing him if it's true. He really was that way. Most times when bird shot it you knew it was going in.

Okay so you are using who is the most clutch shooter as your qualifier for best shooter ever. I don't really agree with using that as the comparison, but let's go with it. You have to have numbers to back up that statement. If you are calling Bird a much more clutch shooter, show me Bird's shooting numbers for 4th quarter shots 16 feet out. Then show me the numbers for Curry in the 4th quarter 16 feet out.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2015, 04:53:19 PM »

Offline walker834

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Curry is more like Jerry West imo.  Bird as far as a shooter was just the complete package.  Pierce is super clutch and intelligent as a shooter. Ray Allen has great form and probably the best ever there.  Curry is very good. I'm not  knocking him too much. I'd put him up there for sure as far as shooters ive seen. 

Bird was something else though.  He is the best ever in that regard.  As far as winning and taking smart shots it's no contest.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2015, 04:57:31 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Curry is more like Jerry West imo.  Bird as far as a shooter was just the complete package.  Pierce is super clutch and intelligent as a shooter. Ray Allen has great form and probably the best ever there.  Curry is very good. I'm not  knocking him too much. I'd put him up there for sure as far as shooters ive seen. 

Bird was something else though.  He is the best ever in that regard.  As far as winning and taking smart shots it's no contest.

Well then show it in numbers. The only numbers that exist are that Bird shot 39.8% from 3PT line on 2.6 attempts from 1984-1992 (when he actually started shooting a higher volume), and Curry with 44% on 6.5 attempts. The main differences are that 3PT defense was pretty much nonexistent in the 80s, while everyone is pretty much in your face nowadays.

If you are going by clutchness...you really can't. No one has tracked those numbers for the players in the 80s, and it's just your opinion at that point even if all the numbers point in the other direction. You can't call Bird a more clutch shooter because I definitely know you don't have any numbers to back that statement up so it makes it almost impossible to argue with you if you continue to ignore any other viable statistic available.

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2015, 05:03:55 PM »

Offline greece66

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Step 1:  Get an MVP-caliber elite scorer

Step 2:  Get an elite defensive big man (preferably one who is 7 feet tall and makes the all-defense team)

Step 3:  Fill out the roster with lots of top-tier starters and so much depth that you can leave an all-star big man rotting on the bench.

Step 4:   Warriors Clippers Eastside, baby!
Fixed

Re: Let's build the Warriors Eastside
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2015, 05:07:51 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I'm not romantizing him.  The game was different back then.  Bird was much more a clutch shooter.  He was a full grown man that way playing a kids game. He was so clutch and ice that way it was ridiculous.  It's not romantizing him if it's true. He really was that way. Most times when bird shot it you knew it was going in.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/romanticize
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