Author Topic: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.  (Read 16970 times)

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Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2015, 07:26:38 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Because Boston has an apparent obsession with slow, undersized, jump-shot-jacking power forwards who are scared of defense?

Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2015, 07:31:39 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Because Boston has an apparent obsession with undersized, unathletic power forwards who can't defend and are scared of playing in the post?

You're very wrong on that..

Quote
Synergy Sports Tech @SynergySST
Kevin Love leads the NBA in Post Up scoring efficiency among players using over 4 possession per game at 1.005 points per possession

First time I've ever heard someone say Kevin Love is scared of playing in the post.
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Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2015, 07:36:19 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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I don't know how Love is going to feel about playing with Kobe, even for one year. Love needs the ball in his hands, the problem is Kobe always has it in his hands. Is Love going to go through being the second fiddle again if he signs with LA. It all depends on how much he actually digs la la land personally. If he's in love with the city of LA, and can tolerate Kobe's ego, then good luck to him. Also just because Kobe says he's retiring doesn't mean he will (just in case Kevin is listening in) oh...and I'm sure Coach Kobe will be a fair and just coach. lol

While Boston has a bunch of first round draft picks, and a the ability to sign two max contracts. Kevin is still young 27, he has a chance to do something special in Boston for years to come. The team is also young, hungry, defensive orientated, and waiting for a number one scorer to come in.

If I were him I know where I'd go.

Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2015, 07:39:29 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't get why everyone thinks Love going to the Lakers is a good idea... Ummm... This gives the Lakers a bonafide offensive/rebounding PF, that is relatively young, and it only allows them to trade away Randle, or whoever + their pick to bring in an superstar.

Trust me bro, if the Lakers could barely make the playoffs with a Kobe, Dwight and Gasol...then they're going nowhere with Kobe, Love ad Hobert.  Especially since Kobe is another year older and coming off a major injury.

Dwight and Gasol is a FAR more dominant force up front then Love and Gobert.

Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2015, 07:50:02 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Because Boston has an apparent obsession with undersized, unathletic power forwards who can't defend and are scared of playing in the post?

You're very wrong on that..

Quote
Synergy Sports Tech @SynergySST
Kevin Love leads the NBA in Post Up scoring efficiency among players using over 4 possession per game at 1.005 points per possession

First time I've ever heard someone say Kevin Love is scared of playing in the post.

Yet only 21% of his FGA came within 3 feet this season, and he shot only 61% on those shots.  While over 60% of all his FGA came from outside 10 feet.  A FG% of 61% might not seem so bad, but look up skilled offensive big men and you'll quickly see that it's pretty woeful.

By comparison Kelly Olynyk (who is NOT a post player) took 35% of his attempts within 3 feet and shot 68% on those attempts.
 
Josh Smith (also not a traditional post player or a great offensive player) took 30% of his shots within three feet since he joined Houston and shot 67% on those attempts.

Greg Monroe also shot only 61% inside 3 feet, but he took a whopping 53% of his shots from that range...obviously a guy who's not afraid to get down and dirty.

That Love shoots a relatively unspectacular percentage around the basket and also takes so few shots there tells me that he's either too scared or too lazy to bang around in the post, no matter what other stats might say. 

The past two seasons Love has shown almost zero interest in getting in to the post, and has basically become a poor man's Sully (in that all he does is jack up jumpers, play bad defense and grab a few rebounds).   
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 08:16:16 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2015, 07:52:45 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Because Boston has an apparent obsession with undersized, unathletic power forwards who can't defend and are scared of playing in the post?

You're very wrong on that..

Quote
Synergy Sports Tech @SynergySST
Kevin Love leads the NBA in Post Up scoring efficiency among players using over 4 possession per game at 1.005 points per possession

First time I've ever heard someone say Kevin Love is scared of playing in the post.

Yet only 21% of his FGA came within 3 feet this season, and he shot only 61% on those shots.  While over 60% of all his FGA came from outside 10 feet. 

By comparison Kelly Olynyk (who is NOT a post player) took 35% of his attempts within 3 feet and shot 68% on those attempts.
 
Over his first 5 seasons was much more inclined to take the ball inside, and took at least around 1/3 of his shots from in that range across that time period.  But even then, his FG% in the restricted area has always been pretty woeful (59% for his career inside 3 feet).

The past two seasons Love has shown almost zero interest in getting in to the post, and has basically become a poor man's Sully (in that all he does is jack up jumpers, play bad defense and grab a few rebounds).
Its interesting that poor man's Sully has outperformed actual sully in just about every statistical category I can think of including games played.
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Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2015, 08:16:20 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Because Boston has an apparent obsession with undersized, unathletic power forwards who can't defend and are scared of playing in the post?

You're very wrong on that..

Quote
Synergy Sports Tech @SynergySST
Kevin Love leads the NBA in Post Up scoring efficiency among players using over 4 possession per game at 1.005 points per possession

First time I've ever heard someone say Kevin Love is scared of playing in the post.

Yet only 21% of his FGA came within 3 feet this season, and he shot only 61% on those shots.  While over 60% of all his FGA came from outside 10 feet. 
That is why Love would be willing to leave. He was used as a stretch 4, where he is really a multifaceted scorer.  Look at his career numbers, he took a lot more shots near the hoop for the t-wolves.
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Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2015, 08:21:45 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Because Boston has an apparent obsession with undersized, unathletic power forwards who can't defend and are scared of playing in the post?

You're very wrong on that..

Quote
Synergy Sports Tech @SynergySST
Kevin Love leads the NBA in Post Up scoring efficiency among players using over 4 possession per game at 1.005 points per possession

First time I've ever heard someone say Kevin Love is scared of playing in the post.

Yet only 21% of his FGA came within 3 feet this season, and he shot only 61% on those shots.  While over 60% of all his FGA came from outside 10 feet. 

By comparison Kelly Olynyk (who is NOT a post player) took 35% of his attempts within 3 feet and shot 68% on those attempts.
 
Over his first 5 seasons was much more inclined to take the ball inside, and took at least around 1/3 of his shots from in that range across that time period.  But even then, his FG% in the restricted area has always been pretty woeful (59% for his career inside 3 feet).

The past two seasons Love has shown almost zero interest in getting in to the post, and has basically become a poor man's Sully (in that all he does is jack up jumpers, play bad defense and grab a few rebounds).

Still a better scorer/rebounder than Sully, who fans here clamored to pay the man his money.

I would rather pay an 3 time Allstar, who can bring other Allstars here, and has the style of game that is important in today's NBA.

The first line sounds like exactly what Cleveland did to Love. Love isn't the best post scorer, but he still has post moves, and has averaged above the mark for post scoring inside at around 44-47%, whereas Sully has had 39 or below...

Sully is a poor man's Kevin Love without the consistent 3 pt shooting. I would take a player that can rebound more, and shoot. They both have relatively bad defense, so either way, its a wash. I would take Love over Sully or KO any day of the week.

Are you guys seriously kidding me with this. Why are people so opposed to hating players like Love? Because their mentally weak? They don't have the flashy passing like Bird or the flashy dunks like Gerald Green or Dee Brown?

I don't like how Love has commented, and acted in a professional manner, but the Cavaliers did absolutely no service to him by forcing him to be a spot up 3 point shooter. If anything, that in itself, is a huge insult to a player that can score offensively, and grab boards.

If a player like Kevin Love wants to come here, I'll embrace with open arms. Any talent that can come through free agency is welcome here. Even if we don't need Love, he'll always be a trade able asset, and if we get him in free agency, we keep ALL our ASSETS.

Because Boston has an apparent obsession with undersized, unathletic power forwards who can't defend and are scared of playing in the post?

You're very wrong on that..

Quote
Synergy Sports Tech @SynergySST
Kevin Love leads the NBA in Post Up scoring efficiency among players using over 4 possession per game at 1.005 points per possession

First time I've ever heard someone say Kevin Love is scared of playing in the post.

Yet only 21% of his FGA came within 3 feet this season, and he shot only 61% on those shots.  While over 60% of all his FGA came from outside 10 feet. 

By comparison Kelly Olynyk (who is NOT a post player) took 35% of his attempts within 3 feet and shot 68% on those attempts.
 
Over his first 5 seasons was much more inclined to take the ball inside, and took at least around 1/3 of his shots from in that range across that time period.  But even then, his FG% in the restricted area has always been pretty woeful (59% for his career inside 3 feet).

The past two seasons Love has shown almost zero interest in getting in to the post, and has basically become a poor man's Sully (in that all he does is jack up jumpers, play bad defense and grab a few rebounds).
Its interesting that poor man's Sully has outperformed actual sully in just about every statistical category I can think of including games played.

PER 36
Sully is 17.7 PPG, 10.7 RPG, and 3.1 APG.

Kevin Love is 17.5 PPG, 10.4 RPG, and 2.4 APG.

I guess you could be right about Sully out performing Love, (if that was your original intentions....,) but Love scored about the same taking 6.4 shots less per game, and playing 75 games to Suillinger's 58.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 08:30:31 PM by Monkhouse »
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Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2015, 08:25:45 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Its interesting that poor man's Sully has outperformed actual sully in just about every statistical category I can think of including games played.

Sorry, that was a typo - I mean't a rich man's Sully (i.e. Sully is a poor man's Love).   ;D

That is why Love would be willing to leave. He was used as a stretch 4, where he is really a multifaceted scorer.  Look at his career numbers, he took a lot more shots near the hoop for the t-wolves.

Not entirely accurate.

In 77 games (good sample size) with Minnesota last year Love took only 25% of his shots from within 3 feet and 55% of his shots came from outside 10 feet.  Not much difference at all compared to this year with the Cavs, with the only difference being he shot a much better percentage (67%).

Looking at his numbers over his career, it looks like he was very willing inside scorer until he got injured for the 2012/13 season.  Prior to that year he was taking anywhere from 32%-50% of his shots inside of 3 feet up to that point.  Every since that season however, the number has dropped to 21%-25%.

Seems to me like ever since he got hurt that season he's been scared to play in the post, and has been happier to just take the easy way out and settle for long jumpers.

Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2015, 09:00:29 PM »

Offline gpap

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Its interesting that poor man's Sully has outperformed actual sully in just about every statistical category I can think of including games played.

Sorry, that was a typo - I mean't a rich man's Sully (i.e. Sully is a poor man's Love).   ;D

That is why Love would be willing to leave. He was used as a stretch 4, where he is really a multifaceted scorer.  Look at his career numbers, he took a lot more shots near the hoop for the t-wolves.

Not entirely accurate.

In 77 games (good sample size) with Minnesota last year Love took only 25% of his shots from within 3 feet and 55% of his shots came from outside 10 feet.  Not much difference at all compared to this year with the Cavs, with the only difference being he shot a much better percentage (67%).

Looking at his numbers over his career, it looks like he was very willing inside scorer until he got injured for the 2012/13 season.  Prior to that year he was taking anywhere from 32%-50% of his shots inside of 3 feet up to that point.  Every since that season however, the number has dropped to 21%-25%.

Seems to me like ever since he got hurt that season he's been scared to play in the post, and has been happier to just take the easy way out and settle for long jumpers.

Let's get the "rich man, poor man" stuff out of the way and point out one glaring fact.

Love is a far better player than Sully.


Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2015, 09:54:41 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Sully is a poor man's Kevin Love without the consistent 3 pt shooting. I would take a player that can rebound more, and shoot. They both have relatively bad defense, so either way, its a wash. I would take Love over Sully or KO any day of the week.

There is a key difference here.

Olynyk is 24 years old and is averaging per-36 numbers of 16.6 points, 7.7 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 1.6 steals and 1 block while shooting 47.5% / 35% / 68% and is earning $2.1 million.

Sully is 23 years old and is averaging per-36 numbers of 17.7 points, 10.1 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1 steal and 1 block while shooting 44%  / 28% / 74% and is earning $1.4 million.

Love is 26 years old and is averaging per-36 numbers of 17.5 points, 10.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 0.7 steals and 0.6 blocks while shooting 43% / 36% / 80% and is earning $15.7 million.

Olynyk and Sully are basically putting up Kevin Love numbers on a per-36 basis are make as much for a season as Love does in about a month.

Now somebody is going to come back and say "yeh but Olynyk can't play 36 minutes because he will get fouled out, and Sully can't play 36 minutes because of his conditioning, so that's not a fair comparison.

Fine, so lets look at it another way.

Sully and Olynyk are two players. 

If you have Sully and Olynyk you're getting a combined 23.6 points, 12.3 rebounds, 4 assists, 1.8 steals and 2 blocks on 45% / 31% / 71% in 49.2 minutes for $3.5M

If you have Love you're getting 16.4 points, 9.7 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 0.7 steals and 0.5 blocks on 43% / 36% / 80% in 33.8 minutes for $15.7 million.

So we've already determined (based on per 36 numbers) that Olynyk and Sully are both putting up pretty close to Kevin Love numbers on a per minute basis.  Now we've determined that Sully and Olynyk, between them, play enough minutes to cover the PF spot for the entire game.  That means that if you have Olynyk AND Sully you're getting 'pretty close to Love numbers' for an entire game...for less than MLE money.

Or you can sign Love and get Love numbers for only 70% of the game, for $15.6 million.

I know which one makes more sense to me...

:P

Are you guys seriously kidding me with this. Why are people so opposed to hating players like Love? Because their mentally weak? They don't have the flashy passing like Bird or the flashy dunks like Gerald Green or Dee Brown?

I can't speak for others...but the reason I don't like the idea of Love coming here is because Love doesn't really fill any holes or add any dimension to this team that we don't already have. 

We already have two slow, undersized, jump-shooting Power Forwards who are incapable of protecting the rim.  Kevin Love gives us the exact same thing (just an upgraded version) for about 4x the price.

Love is redundant here - an unnecessary luxury, that offers a relatively modest gain at an exorbitantly high cost.

Considering we, as a team, have a number of significant holes that really need filling (rim protection, outside shooting, a starting SF, etc) it just doesn't make any sense to me to spend almost our entire cap space on almost entirely redundant piece.

Also I know people will say "but what if a rim protector isn't available, we may as well spend on somebody".  Well, I disagree.  Why spend money just for the sake of spending money?  I think every basketball decision made should be an intelligent one - every signing you may should present value for money in some regard.  Either a major and quantifiable upgrade over what you have, or else a new dimension added that you don't already have.  If we have the money to spend, but no opportunity to upgrade/improve comes along then fine - hold on to that cap space, use it next year when new opportunities arise. 

Cap space is an asset, not a liability - having cap space is not going to disadvantage you.  Sometimes unexpected things happen (like disgruntled stars getting waived or stretched mid season) and teams with cap space are the first ones to take a run at those guys.  For example Houston got Josh Smith for less than $1M, and he's been an absolute difference maker for them in the playoffs.

Based on our team's current makeup, signing Kevin Love just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not completely against Love as a player - I don't like him as a person, but I think his skill could be very well used by some teams.  Philadephia for example - he'd be an amazing fit next to Noel or Embiid on that team and would give them a much needed offensive boost.  In Chicago - he'd be a great fit next to Noah and/or Gasol.  In New Orleans, again he'd fit awesome next to Anthony Davis.

In Boston, I just don't see it - I think this may be THE WORST fit for Love out of all the teams in the entire league. 

Again, I see signing Kevin Love as using up cap space just for the sake of using up cap space.  If Sully and Olynyk took up $12m combined then sure, I'd be all for upgrading via Love...you're getting a tangible upgrade and spending much extra.  But that's not the case - those guys make $3.5m combined and Love is not '4x' better than either Sully or Olynyk - certainly not 4x better than those guys combined.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 10:06:07 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2015, 10:10:37 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Let's get the "rich man, poor man" stuff out of the way and point out one glaring fact.

Love is a far better player than Sully.

13.3 points
7.6 rebounds
2.3 assists
0.8 steals
0.7 blocks
27 minutes
44% FG
28% 3PT
74% FT
PER: 17.9
$1.4 million

vs

16.4 points
9.7 rebounds
2.2 assists
0.7 steals
0.5 blocks
34 minutes
43% FG
36% 3PT
80% FT
PER: 18.8
$15.6 million

So for an 11x ($14.2m) increase in salary you are getting...

+3.1 points
+2.1 rebounds
-0.1 assists
-0.1 steals
-0.2 blocks
-0.1% FG
+0.8% 3PT
+0.6% FT
+6.8 minutes
+09 PER

Do you really describe that as a "FAR better" player?  Do you really consider that good value for money?

Basically the only significant improvements there are 3PT% and FT% - outside of that you are essentially look at the same player. 

« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 10:15:51 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2015, 10:11:57 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Love is 26 years old and is averaging per-36 numbers of 17.5 points, 10.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 0.7 steals and 0.6 blocks while shooting 43% / 36% / 80% and is earning $15.7 million.

. . .

If you have Love you're getting 16.4 points, 9.7 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 0.7 steals and 0.5 blocks on 43% / 36% / 80% in 33.8 minutes for $15.7 million.


Except the numbers for Love this season are on a team where he is the third option. His numbers from MIN, where he was a focal point of the offense, seem more appropriate: 26.1 points, 12.5 rebs, 4.4 asists, 0.8 steals, and 0.5 blocks on 46% / 38% / 82% in 36.3 minutes of action last season, for example.

That kind of production is well worth the price.
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Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2015, 10:18:30 PM »

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I am really looking forward to whenever Love decides either to stay with the Cavs , or sign with LA or Boston or whoever else out there.It will be fascinating to see how quickly certain posters come here to puff out their chests.
Should be entertaining ;D

Re: Here is why Love ends up in Boston.
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2015, 10:25:26 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Sully is a poor man's Kevin Love without the consistent 3 pt shooting. I would take a player that can rebound more, and shoot. They both have relatively bad defense, so either way, its a wash. I would take Love over Sully or KO any day of the week.

There is a key difference here.

Olynyk is 24 years old and is averaging per-36 numbers of 16.6 points, 7.7 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 1.6 steals and 1 block while shooting 47.5% / 35% / 68% and is earning $2.1 million.

Sully is 23 years old and is averaging per-36 numbers of 17.7 points, 10.1 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1 steal and 1 block while shooting 44%  / 28% / 74% and is earning $1.4 million.

Love is 26 years old and is averaging per-36 numbers of 17.5 points, 10.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 0.7 steals and 0.6 blocks while shooting 43% / 36% / 80% and is earning $15.7 million.

Olynyk and Sully are basically putting up Kevin Love numbers on a per-36 basis are make as much for a season as Love does in about a month.

Now somebody is going to come back and say "yeh but Olynyk can't play 36 minutes because he will get fouled out, and Sully can't play 36 minutes because of his conditioning, so that's not a fair comparison.

Fine, so lets look at it another way.

Sully and Olynyk are two players. 

If you have Sully and Olynyk you're getting a combined 23.6 points, 12.3 rebounds, 4 assists, 1.8 steals and 2 blocks on 45% / 31% / 71% in 49.2 minutes for $3.5M

If you have Love you're getting 16.4 points, 9.7 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 0.7 steals and 0.5 blocks on 43% / 36% / 80% in 33.8 minutes for $15.7 million.

So we've already determined (based on per 36 numbers) that Olynyk and Sully are both putting up pretty close to Kevin Love numbers on a per minute basis.  Now we've determined that Sully and Olynyk, between them, play enough minutes to cover the PF spot for the entire game.  That means that if you have Olynyk AND Sully you're getting 'pretty close to Love numbers' for an entire game...for less than MLE money.

Or you can sign Love and get Love numbers for only 70% of the game, for $15.6 million.

I know which one makes more sense to me...

:P

Are you guys seriously kidding me with this. Why are people so opposed to hating players like Love? Because their mentally weak? They don't have the flashy passing like Bird or the flashy dunks like Gerald Green or Dee Brown?

I can't speak for others...but the reason I don't like the idea of Love coming here is because Love doesn't really fill any holes or add any dimension to this team that we don't already have. 

We already have two slow, undersized, jump-shooting Power Forwards who are incapable of protecting the rim.  Kevin Love gives us the exact same thing (just an upgraded version) for about 4x the price.

In Boston, I just don't see it - I think this may be THE WORST fit for Love out of all the teams in the entire league.


Well to answer the first statement about adding Sully/KO's numbers together.. You could apply that to literally almost ANY player in the league... That doesn't really hold moot to me.

I also dislike the per 36 comparsion or argument, even though I used it, simply because it helps to see what the player could average. I just don't believe players can average that exactly, but mutely very close to it.

Lets see as Kevin Love career averages are...

18.7 PPG, 11.8 RPG, 2.4 APG, and 32.9 MPG, with 36% 3pt.

Jared is
11.4 PPG, 7.4 RPG, and 1.6 APG in 27.0MPG , with 27% 3pt.

Kelly career averages are
9.4 PPG, 5.0 RPG, and 1.6 APG in 21.1 MPG, with 35% 3pt.

Obviously for cap reasons, you would rather have Jared and Kelly just because their both substantially cheaper, but how much of a ceiling do you see those two having?

In Kevin Love's prime around 28-30, I can see him averaging 21.4 PPG, 10.8 RPG, and 2.7 APG. That isn't an unrealistic goal, and 2011-2012, and 2013-2014, his numbers were dramatically and incredibly improved.

Now I'm going to respond to the quote I have bold.

I think if there was any player besides Kawhi Leonard, Butler, Noah, and DJ, I would say Love is the next best fit on this team. Hes not a defender, although he has decent post defense, Love fits the bill for what we're looking to go through with the team in terms of pace, space, and sharing the ball.

Top 5 reasons why Love is a perfect fit on this team.

1. I would put Noah, Green, Gasol, and a few others like Love who can pass in the high post, or top of the key with perfect accuracy.

2. Love can shoot the 3 point shot, and is perfect for coming off pick and pops.

3. Led the league in rebounding in 2011, and has always been a fantastic rebounder of 11.8 RPG career.

4. Can you imagine Isaiah Thomas and Love pick and roll? Oh wait, sorry meant to write, can you imagine a Jae Crowder fast break dunk on the transition from Kevin Love's almighty outlet pass only reminiscent of Wes Unseld?

5. Love has been criticized for his inability to make it to the playoffs, but this only ties in to the strength of the Western Conference, and how important it is to have good defenders on the team, especially a Center. Pekovic and Love is a horrible defensive duo, and the Wolves were one of the best teams to not make it to the playoffs.

I mean hes just the ideal player that the Celtics need next to a SF and C. Yes we already have two power forward players, but I think we need to stop thinking their going to be great players, because one of them is in a make or break season, due to his inability to take his job and health seriously. And another suffers from the inability to be aggressive, and is a year older with the addition of being foul prone.
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Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different