The value of Kelly Olynyk in the modern NBA game

[Celtics18]

A rebound is a play. Getting a steal or a block is a play. Forcing your man to pass or take a bad shot is a play. Hitting an open shot is a play.

Most of these guys are better play makers than KO most of the time.

Well, if you're going to define doing anything productive on the floor as a "play," then yes, there will be a number of players better than Olynyk by that measure, though KO is a fairly productive big man.  He just doesn't dominate in any one category, aside from being one of the few 7 footers in the league who regularly takes and makes threes.

Just know that this is not what other people are talking about when they talk about "playmakers."

People can think of KO as a playmaker as much as they want to. I don't consider him much of a playmaker or facilitator or a lead forward or point forward or any other possible euphemism for "Not really a reliable scorer, defender, or rebounder. Not at all intimidating or much of a leader on the court. Just kinda a liability".

I'm not sure what you mean by he's a fairly productive big man. His shooting numbers aren't that great. Neither are any of his other numbers.

Even if he is a "playmaker" ....at the expense of what? If you never have the ball because you don't rebound it or take it from the other team then how many plays can you make?

Sounds like you are changing the definition in your head because you likely have some weird agenda/hatred against Olynyk like a few people on this forum have. Everyone knows what people mean when they are talking about playmakers in basketball. Playmakers are those who can score, dribble, and pass. You are trying way too hard.

Anyway, before his injury he had a 58-60% TS, which is really good. He ended the season at 56%, which is still pretty good so you are pretty wrong to say he doesn't shoot that well. He's fairly efficient with pretty good potential to be very efficient. He's also the best ball mover in the Celtics' front court by a pretty healthy margin, though, Sully is obviously right there with him. There is a reason KO ranks so highly on the Celtics in terms of real +/-. More often than not, the Celtics play their best basketball with KO on the floor. That's just the truth of it. Sorry if he doesn't fit your ideal model or you can't see the good things he does. Plenty of others do, and yes, he does fit the description posted in the OP to a T.

Have you ever actually watched him play or taken a look at his box score lines?

Also he needs a haircut. Every time I look at him I wonder why he isn't out smoking a dooby and trying to solve mysteries with Scooby.

A rebound is a play. Getting a steal or a block is a play. Forcing your man to pass or take a bad shot is a play. Hitting an open shot is a play.

Most of these guys are better play makers than KO most of the time.

Well, if you're going to define doing anything productive on the floor as a "play," then yes, there will be a number of players better than Olynyk by that measure, though KO is a fairly productive big man.  He just doesn't dominate in any one category, aside from being one of the few 7 footers in the league who regularly takes and makes threes.

Just know that this is not what other people are talking about when they talk about "playmakers."

People can think of KO as a playmaker as much as they want to. I don't consider him much of a playmaker or facilitator or a lead forward or point forward or any other possible euphemism for "Not really a reliable scorer, defender, or rebounder. Not at all intimidating or much of a leader on the court. Just kinda a liability".

I'm not sure what you mean by he's a fairly productive big man. His shooting numbers aren't that great. Neither are any of his other numbers.

Even if he is a "playmaker" ....at the expense of what? If you never have the ball because you don't rebound it or take it from the other team then how many plays can you make?

Sounds like you are changing the definition in your head because you likely have some weird agenda/hatred against Olynyk like a few people on this forum have. Everyone knows what people mean when they are talking about playmakers in basketball. Playmakers are those who can score, dribble, and pass. You are trying way too hard.

Anyway, before his injury he had a 58-60% TS, which is really good. He ended the season at 56%, which is still pretty good so you are pretty wrong to say he doesn't shoot that well. He's fairly efficient with pretty good potential to be very efficient. He's also the best ball mover in the Celtics' front court by a pretty healthy margin, though, Sully is obviously right there with him. There is a reason KO ranks so highly on the Celtics in terms of real +/-. More often than not, the Celtics play their best basketball with KO on the floor. That's just the truth of it. Sorry if he doesn't fit your ideal model or you can't see the good things he does. Plenty of others do, and yes, he does fit the description posted in the OP to a T.

He's a big man that shoots less that 50%, barely better than average from deep, and had a terrible ft%

Do you know what TS% is? Do you know what real +/- is? These numbers support my eye test. That he is a solid efficient big man who makes his team perform better than not. No statistics matchup with your eye test so maybe you should be doing some re-evaulating. I can actually use statistics to back up my eye test. All you can do is make comments about his hair and whatever else demeaning thing you feel like saying.

and yes, I've watched him play. Like I said, your judgement is oddly clouded by some weird hatred. Per typical of KO haters, you went straight to his hair. I should make a checklist/bingo chart for "things people who hate KO say"

His efficiency was really great before his injury also. He was at 60% TS for most of the season on 50/40 shooting. You should really pay attention more and stop being blinded by little meaningless things like the length of his hair.

I know what TS is. Not impressed. Not buying it. Do you have any defensive stats or just irrational mommy love?

This thread is about KO as a playmaker on the offensive end of the floor. Stop moving around just to discredit KO. You don't "buy" TS% or not. It's the accepted measuring stick for efficiency in the NBA now.

Like I said, you can keep going towards insults and whatever else you feel like doing because nothing really backs up your eye test when it comes to KO as a playmaker. He fits the exact definition of what a playmaking 4 entails in the modern NBA. Stop talking about his defense like it is even relevant to this particular topic.

So if we're using TS% as the measure of whether KO can be a playmaker...he's at .558 and Bass is .557 so Bass is a playmaker now too....but both of them are far below Jared Dudley at ..572, so Dudley is a playmaker now too. Biyombo is above that.....

TS% is not a good indicator of playmaking ability.  NBA.COM posts some cool "Player Tracking Stats" these days.  One is their points created off drives stats for individual players.

I just posted some of those.  I feel like those are fairly indicative of "playmaking skills." 

[AngryAndIrritable]

Trade KO to TOR.

Bruno Caboclo (maybe a pick) for KO

Nothing Caboclo has done as a pro has silenced the general hilarity that ensued when he went in the first round. Please elaborate on this idea...

[Who]

My goodness, Olynyk averaged as many drives (2.1 per game) as Marcus Smart (2.0 per game) and more than Avery Bradley (1.4 per game). Gosh, even Sully (2.0 drives per game) made as many as Smart did.

That is pretty [dang]ing for Celtics starting backcourt.

I hate how little Smart and Bradley drive into the paint.

[Beat LA]

A rebound is a play. Getting a steal or a block is a play. Forcing your man to pass or take a bad shot is a play. Hitting an open shot is a play.

Most of these guys are better play makers than KO most of the time.

Well, if you're going to define doing anything productive on the floor as a "play," then yes, there will be a number of players better than Olynyk by that measure, though KO is a fairly productive big man.  He just doesn't dominate in any one category, aside from being one of the few 7 footers in the league who regularly takes and makes threes.

Just know that this is not what other people are talking about when they talk about "playmakers."

People can think of KO as a playmaker as much as they want to. I don't consider him much of a playmaker or facilitator or a lead forward or point forward or any other possible euphemism for "Not really a reliable scorer, defender, or rebounder. Not at all intimidating or much of a leader on the court. Just kinda a liability".

I'm not sure what you mean by he's a fairly productive big man. His shooting numbers aren't that great. Neither are any of his other numbers.

Even if he is a "playmaker" ....at the expense of what? If you never have the ball because you don't rebound it or take it from the other team then how many plays can you make?

Sounds like you are changing the definition in your head because you likely have some weird agenda/hatred against Olynyk like a few people on this forum have. Everyone knows what people mean when they are talking about playmakers in basketball. Playmakers are those who can score, dribble, and pass. You are trying way too hard.

Anyway, before his injury he had a 58-60% TS, which is really good. He ended the season at 56%, which is still pretty good so you are pretty wrong to say he doesn't shoot that well. He's fairly efficient with pretty good potential to be very efficient. He's also the best ball mover in the Celtics' front court by a pretty healthy margin, though, Sully is obviously right there with him. There is a reason KO ranks so highly on the Celtics in terms of real +/-. More often than not, the Celtics play their best basketball with KO on the floor. That's just the truth of it. Sorry if he doesn't fit your ideal model or you can't see the good things he does. Plenty of others do, and yes, he does fit the description posted in the OP to a T.

Have you ever actually watched him play or taken a look at his box score lines?

Also he needs a haircut. Every time I look at him I wonder why he isn't out smoking a dooby and trying to solve mysteries with Scooby.

Lol , TP. Maybe KO should ride around in Hillary Clinton's van , ahaha .

Seriously, though, I agree - he really needs a haircut.  I know that billy goats need their coats , but, as he's not fast or quick by any stretch of the imagination, his hair only adds more air resistance to further take away from his 'speed' , so he needs to go to supercuts, lol . Every bit helps .

In fairness, though, despite my misgivings about him, the guy is an excellent passer, but we don't see it very often, for some reason.  All he does is stand out by the 3 point line whenever he's out there . Ugh.

This is hilarious, btw -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x199ARHHBFU

[hwangjini_1]

My goodness, Olynyk averaged as many drives (2.1 per game) as Marcus Smart (2.0 per game) and more than Avery Bradley (1.4 per game). Gosh, even Sully (2.0 drives per game) made as many as Smart did.

That is pretty [dang]ing for Celtics starting backcourt.

I hate how little Smart and Bradley drive into the paint.

i am not familiar with this stat, but the ones you provide are they adjusted for playing time? that is, olly averaged 22.2 minutes per game. smart and sully averaged 27. and bradley 31.5.

if those drive numbers are not adjusted to account for differences in minutes played, then it does say alot about bradley. it also makes olly look impressive.

[Who]

My goodness, Olynyk averaged as many drives (2.1 per game) as Marcus Smart (2.0 per game) and more than Avery Bradley (1.4 per game). Gosh, even Sully (2.0 drives per game) made as many as Smart did.

That is pretty [dang]ing for Celtics starting backcourt.

I hate how little Smart and Bradley drive into the paint.

i am not familiar with this stat, but the ones you provide are they adjusted for playing time? that is, olly averaged 22.2 minutes per game. smart and sully averaged 27. and bradley 31.5.

if those drive numbers are not adjusted to account for differences in minutes played, then it does say alot about bradley. it also makes olly look impressive.

Per game stats. Not adjusted for playing time.

Here is a link to league stats for drives - click here
And Boston's stats for drives - click here

If you want to browse through them. You can scroll through the pages and see how each of the players compare to other guys at their position. I see no way to separate by position but from what I can see:

(1) Smart ranks as the worst in the league amongst starting PGs (in terms of drives per game)
(2) Bradley rates badly relative to starting SGs (near bottom of pile)
(3) Olynyk rates just behind the league leaders amongst big men (PFs and Cs). If you account for difference in playing time, Olynyk's stats are even more impressive.
(4) Sully does very well also.

Paul Millsap, DeMarcus Cousins and Josh Smith were top bigs with 4.5 to 4.9 drives per game.

By the way, Isaiah Thomas led the C's with 8.8 drives per game. That would've ranked 15th in the league despite only playing 26.0mpg.

[Eja117]

I kind of can't really believe what I'm reading here. Do you think opposing defenses even respect, let alone fear, KO?  I mean when the other team is scouting and making their defensive game plan do you think they pay lots of attention to what KO can do? Do you think the other team even notices when he enters the game? Do you think the other team says "Oh man KO just came in. Be real careful about that pump fake, cause you know he can get ya, and get by ya and pass it off for an easy two".

Is that what we think the other team is thinking? I think they notice when IT comes into the game. I think KO enters the game and nobody blinks.

Has KO ever just taken over a game or dominated or gone toe to toe with another great player? Has he ever had like a week where he was just on or got any national attention at all?

This is KO....http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/5164/

If he's so good why is his three point percentage going down? Why is his free throw percentage a joke? Why didn't his assists go up despite more playing time? Why did his rebounds go down despite more playing time?

At best he was going to take a step forward and got hurt. At worst he regressed. Maybe having more better players around meant he couldn't be the same ok player on a bad team.

Here's a question.  Who plays hardest on the Celts? Who plays like they want it really bad? Is KO near the top of that list? Or closer to the bottom? Exactly.

[GC003332]

My goodness, Olynyk averaged as many drives (2.1 per game) as Marcus Smart (2.0 per game) and more than Avery Bradley (1.4 per game). Gosh, even Sully (2.0 drives per game) made as many as Smart did.

That is pretty [dang]ing for Celtics starting backcourt.

I hate how little Smart and Bradley drive into the paint.

Hopefully the reports of the affects that the high ankle sprain that Smart had were on the money and it really took away his lift.Still clinging to that.
Bradley on the other hand

[D.o.s.]

Lots of overreactions IMO. Kelly still has a substantial upside. I don't know why people think he's such a poor rebounder. That being said, he has very little value. He could easily have value if he makes a leap next year. Too in his own head, when he's locked in he looks pretty [dang] good.

I'm baffled as to why Olynyk is graded out like a finished product by most fans.  The guy is just starting his development.  He can still get better.

I personally would keep him, just based on his skill set. I'd look to move Sullinger before Kelly, especially if Love comes here.  I would love the Love/Olynyk combo at the 4.

Typically players that spend four years in college are treated as more finished than, say, a player entering the league fresh out of high school or after having a cup of coffee in the NCAA.

If you look at his college days though, he was on the bench as a frosh and sophomore, and then red shirted his junior year in order to get stronger and improve.  After his red shirt year, he went on to be an all American & wound up forgoing his senior year for the draft.

That's not really your typical college career.  He's still getting stronger and improving.

That's fair, I just don't see a drastic leap in playing ability in his future.

[PhoSita]

(1) Smart ranks as the worst in the league amongst starting PGs (in terms of drives per game)

I'm thinking the fact that Smart generally shared the floor with Evan Turner, and was also often out there with Jae Crowder, Brandon Bass, and Tyler Zeller, might have something to do with this.

Turner needs the ball in his hands to be effective, and Smart is probably the best three point shooter out of the players I just mentioned (feels strange to say that), so he needed to operate as more of a spot up shooter on the perimeter, occasionally running off screens or taking a shot off a dribble handoff.


Now, I do think that a lot of it, too, was Stevens hiding Smart in the motion system to prevent the rookie from having to do too much ball-handling and decision-making.  Clearly he still has room to grow in that area.

Nevertheless, I don't think it's due to a lack of ability to at least keep the defense honest with drives (unlike Bradley, who I think lacks that weapon in his game).  Smart showed a number of times over the season that he can drive and make some nifty finishes in the paint, and occasionally even finish through contact.

[greece66]

Kelly is good. Few players that tall can pass, dribble and shoot so well. This means he can adapt to almost any system.
As for his D, it's not like he cannot learn new tricks at age 24. If the rumours turn out to be accurate and we trade him, I'll be really upset...

[loco_91]

If KO is a potential playmaker then who isn't? Who on the Celts isn't a playmaker if KO is? He's just a guy that goes out there and plays no defense and doesn't get a lot of rebs and sometimes gets some open shots and sometimes looks a little like he's sorta trying to try hard.

He's got a little bit of NBA talent and has worked on his body and that's about the best you can say about him.

Playmaking means creating offense for yourself or for others. Pumpfaking, driving to the rim, drawing a double, kicking it out for an open 3. For example IT is our best playmaker, it has nothing to do with defense or rebounds. KO is our best playmaking big by far, even if he also has significant weaknesses in other areas.

[Eja117]

If KO is a potential playmaker then who isn't? Who on the Celts isn't a playmaker if KO is? He's just a guy that goes out there and plays no defense and doesn't get a lot of rebs and sometimes gets some open shots and sometimes looks a little like he's sorta trying to try hard.

He's got a little bit of NBA talent and has worked on his body and that's about the best you can say about him.

Playmaking means creating offense for yourself or for others. Pumpfaking, driving to the rim, drawing a double, kicking it out for an open 3. For example IT is our best playmaker, it has nothing to do with defense or rebounds. KO is our best playmaking big by far, even if he also has significant weaknesses in other areas.

So when KO goes to do this that will be the first time we ever see him draw a double, right?

Has this ever happened? Has KO ever...idk...gotten past Taj Gibson, drawn the double from Joahkim Noah....saw this..then dumped it off to a cutting Marcus Smart who just got past D Rose for the easy layup or something? Or maybe Avery who got past a screen to lose Jimmy Butler and hit an easy jumper from the top of the key? Is that the idea? That's how this is all going to work? Defenses are just going to respect KO so much that this is how it's going to work? Wow. Just wow.

So now KO has not only learned how to finally get his own offense...he's going to get it for others too....because now he's going to draw doubles.

Realistically I'd be thrilled if KO draws halfs. If I was KOs defender once he gets past the three point line I'd be looking for who to give help defense to.

[Celtics18]

I kind of can't really believe what I'm reading here. Do you think opposing defenses even respect, let alone fear, KO?  I mean when the other team is scouting and making their defensive game plan do you think they pay lots of attention to what KO can do? Do you think the other team even notices when he enters the game? Do you think the other team says "Oh man KO just came in. Be real careful about that pump fake, cause you know he can get ya, and get by ya and pass it off for an easy two".

Is that what we think the other team is thinking? I think they notice when IT comes into the game. I think KO enters the game and nobody blinks.

Has KO ever just taken over a game or dominated or gone toe to toe with another great player? Has he ever had like a week where he was just on or got any national attention at all?

This is KO....http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/5164/

If he's so good why is his three point percentage going down? Why is his free throw percentage a joke? Why didn't his assists go up despite more playing time? Why did his rebounds go down despite more playing time?

At best he was going to take a step forward and got hurt. At worst he regressed. Maybe having more better players around meant he couldn't be the same ok player on a bad team.

Here's a question.  Who plays hardest on the Celts? Who plays like they want it really bad? Is KO near the top of that list? Or closer to the bottom? Exactly.

Of course you can't believe what you are reading.  It's because the facts don't jibe with what you think you know. 

It can be hard to adjust to that. 

[Eja117]

I kind of can't really believe what I'm reading here. Do you think opposing defenses even respect, let alone fear, KO?  I mean when the other team is scouting and making their defensive game plan do you think they pay lots of attention to what KO can do? Do you think the other team even notices when he enters the game? Do you think the other team says "Oh man KO just came in. Be real careful about that pump fake, cause you know he can get ya, and get by ya and pass it off for an easy two".

Is that what we think the other team is thinking? I think they notice when IT comes into the game. I think KO enters the game and nobody blinks.

Has KO ever just taken over a game or dominated or gone toe to toe with another great player? Has he ever had like a week where he was just on or got any national attention at all?

This is KO....http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/5164/

If he's so good why is his three point percentage going down? Why is his free throw percentage a joke? Why didn't his assists go up despite more playing time? Why did his rebounds go down despite more playing time?

At best he was going to take a step forward and got hurt. At worst he regressed. Maybe having more better players around meant he couldn't be the same ok player on a bad team.

Here's a question.  Who plays hardest on the Celts? Who plays like they want it really bad? Is KO near the top of that list? Or closer to the bottom? Exactly.

Of course you can't believe what you are reading.  It's because the facts don't jibe with what you think you know. 

It can be hard to adjust to that.

To reality?