Author Topic: Anything disturbing in those pictures?  (Read 20443 times)

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Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2015, 10:35:07 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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KG arguably had a higher peak, but Duncan has him beat, without question, as far as longevity.

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2015, 10:35:45 PM »

Offline littleteapot

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I think based on LarBrd33's criteria, Kevin Garnett is arguably better than Michael Jordan.
no...  Though I think kg may have been better than Duncan when both were in their prime.
Your arguments are that you need size to win and that Lebron had more success when surrounded by role players and in the early stages of his career. You can say the exact same thing about KG.
How do you feel about websites where people with similar interests share their opinions?
I'm forum!

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2015, 10:40:05 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Another thing that I'd add here is that Jordan and LeBron are fundamentally different players, so the comparison falters somewhat (although obviously James has been the best player the NBA has seen since Jordan), which is why Kobe/MJ remains a much more legitimate comparison.

Pressed for time here, but does anyone have any thoughts/insights into how LeBron compares to someone like Magic or Bird?


i would argue that tim duncan has been the best player since jordan

Even though I don't like Duncan, that point has been made before, and I don't know how anyone could argue it, even though he did benefit immensely from playing with Robinson and Elliott, etc., early on, whereas KG had, well, who did he have, again?  Oh right - Starbury ::). Oh man, lol ;D.

His 5 titles in 6 tries, even though he never repeated, is outstanding, and he never would have lost in 2013 if...sigh.  Still, at least he never quit on his team like Kobe, or got humiliated in two separate finals like Kobe, ahaha ;D.

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2015, 10:41:59 PM »

Offline GC003332

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Until LeBron proves he can win a title without James Jones and Mike Miller , he ain't done squat in this world ;)

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2015, 10:58:47 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I liked Lebron right up until his last game in Cleveland, game 6 against the Celtics.  With a couple of minutes left, Cleveland was down but the game was within reach.  I was sure he was going to take over and beat the Celtics.  But it was too hard so he just quit trying.  I was certainly glad the Celtics won, but I don't think I've seen a great player just give up like that. 

Then there was that whole free angency fiasco and the decision ending with him forming a super team to make it easy to win.  That first season when Dallas beat the Heat in the finals, LeBron didn't give it his all.  It got too hard so quit trying.  Last year he sat out of the final six minutes of the deciding game.

When the going gets tough, Lebron takes off.  He's a bit of a front runner.  Meanwhile, he calls himself the King. He's an incredible talent, but I just can't root for him.

The funny thing is, ego aside, he seems like a great guy off the court.  Jordan, not so much.  But everybody loves Jordan.

For me it was the year Orlando beat Cleveland and made it to the finals - I think 2009? 

When Cleveland lost the game, and Lebron walked angrily to the locker room without going over to congratulate the Magic guys.  Every other Clevleand player went over to shake hands, and Lebron storms out.

Then in the press conference he was asked about it and basically said something like "Why would shake the hand of somebody who just beat me.  I don't want to do that".

If you're Kobe/Duncan/Piece kind of guy (i.e. in your mid to late 30's, have won a ring, and your career is for the most part winding down) then I can excuse you for a move like that because you've pretty much already earned your respect in the league, and you have nothing to prove.

But if you're a 20-something kid who's never won a title then I'm sorry, but you had better show your opponent (and the game) a little respect...otherwise you just come across as a little spoiled brat who feels he's entitled.

As for Jordan, it's true he was reportedly as arrogant as they come.  But far as I'm aware, he still respected the game.  He left it all out there on the court every night - I don't think I ever saw a game where the Bulls lost and I felt Jordan was just playing on cruise control.  I  feel that fairly frequently when I watch Lebron - his effort level and desire to win just don't seem to be at a consistent level.

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2015, 11:08:05 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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How did Pippen make it over Nique?
  Because maybe they liked a winner?   It happens a lot in our society.

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2015, 01:06:49 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Arguing against Duncan as 'the best player since Jordan' is pretty easy really, if you go off individual performance / stats - which I think is a pretty normal think to do when you're asking who's been the best 'individual' player in that time. Duncan's stats have been good, but there are other guys have had better stats then he has.

All the arguments about Duncan's greatness ultimately come down to the number of rings he has, and that's team (not individual) success.

An interesting point...

In the last 30 years, there have only been three franchises who have managed to win 3+ championships within a 5 year span:

LA Lakers (85, 87, 88) and (00, 01, 02)
Chicago Bulls (91, 92, 93) and (96, 97, 98)
San Antonio Spurs (03, 05, 07) or (05, 07, 09)

Question:
What is something all three of those franchises (across each of those seasons) had in common?

Answer:
They all had perennial hall of fame coaches - Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich.

People can argue that Tim Duncan was the only consistently great thing on those Spurs teams (and hence he gets the credit for that success) but that's not entirely true.  Every single one of those titles had Popovich at coach, and you can't underestimate the importance of that.  You could almost argue Popovich is the Spurs second star.

For example, look at how well Boston did this season - how much of that success is because of Steven's ability to get everybody on the same page?

Now much as I dislike Lebron (and I really do dislike him, as a person) the Heat made it to the finals 4 years in a row while he was there, and won in two of those four years.  That's probably the most success we've seen in the past 30 from a team who didn't have a world class coach. 

Even the other back to back winners during that time (89, 90 Pistons and 94, 95 Rockets) had top tier coaches in Chuck Daily and Rudy Tomjanovic.

Lebron is now with a new team and he's about to go back to the finals again...and much like in Miami, he doesn't have an especially highly celebrated coach.

Don't like the guy, but credit where it's due.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 01:13:56 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2015, 01:10:13 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I think based on LarBrd33's criteria, Kevin Garnett is arguably better than Michael Jordan.
no...  Though I think kg may have been better than Duncan when both were in their prime.
Your arguments are that you need size to win and that Lebron had more success when surrounded by role players and in the early stages of his career. You can say the exact same thing about KG.
My argument is that an argument can be made that LeBron is better than Jordan.  I'm arguably right that an argument can be made that LeBron is arguably better than Jordan.

This stupid thread got railroaded when I made a lengthy post defending LeBron's post-diet Weight gain.  He went on a 67 day diet of meat, veggies and fruit.  Cut out a lot of sugar and carbs in the process.  He lost weight.  Over the course of the season, he gained the weight back.  During that post I made an offhand remark that Lebron is arguably the best ever... and of course that's the main bit that got highlighted. 

Anyways... I'll again reiterate that I wouldn't bet money on LeBron being clean of enhancement drugs.  I wouldn't bet money on KG being clean of them from 2008-10, either.  I'll give them both the benefit of the doubt, though.  Either way, LeBron is a basketball supernova and deserves our respect and awe.  Roids don't make a player that skilled.  People be jelly.   
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 01:20:14 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2015, 01:51:45 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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My argument is that an argument can be made that LeBron is better than Jordan.  I'm arguably right that an argument can be made that LeBron is arguably better than Jordan.

Anyways... I'll again reiterate that I wouldn't bet money on LeBron being clean of enhancement drugs.  I wouldn't bet money on KG being clean of them from 2008-10, either.  I'll give them both the benefit of the doubt, though. 

Either way, LeBron is a basketball supernova and deserves our respect and awe.  Roids don't make a player that skilled.  People be jelly.   

These are all pretty fair points.

It can absolutely be argued that Lebron is better than Jordan.  I think arguing that he's the best player ever is difficult (I think that argument is difficult for Jordan too) but to argue that Lebron is better than Jordan is not out of the real of sanity.

I do believe that Jordan was mentally superior, in that he was ALWAYS focused and locked in...but I believe Lebron is physically superior it's just so hard for any player to match that combination of size, strength, mobility.  In terms is skill level, I'd say they're pretty close.  Both guys were triple double machines and stat-sheet-stuffers of the highest level. 

In my eyes the key point thats separates the two guys is are scoring and defense. 

I didn't see as many Jordan games in those days as I do Lebron games today (they didn't play many NBA games on TV here then) but in the games that I did watch, Jordan always looked like he played just as hard on defense as he did on offense - I can't say the same for Lebron.  His has the ability to be an elite defensive player when he feels like it, but it seems like he only feels like it 60% - 70% of the time.  Other days he just seems to sit here and watch.

Also Jordan's scoring numbers speak for themselves, and Lebron (great as his numbers are) can't touch them.  That just tells me that Lebron isn't as offensively dominant against his opponents as Jordan was against his.

So for those reasons, I put Jordan above Lebron.  But is the theory of Lebron being better completely unjustifiable and ridiculous? Not at all.

If MJ played LBJ in a 1-on-1 (both guys in their prime) then I think Lebron would win.  But if Jordan led his best Bulls team against Lebron's  best Miami team, in a 7 game series...then I think the Bulls win by at least a 4-2 margin.

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2015, 02:29:43 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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My argument is that an argument can be made that LeBron is better than Jordan.  I'm arguably right that an argument can be made that LeBron is arguably better than Jordan.

Anyways... I'll again reiterate that I wouldn't bet money on LeBron being clean of enhancement drugs.  I wouldn't bet money on KG being clean of them from 2008-10, either.  I'll give them both the benefit of the doubt, though. 

Either way, LeBron is a basketball supernova and deserves our respect and awe.  Roids don't make a player that skilled.  People be jelly.   

These are all pretty fair points.

It can absolutely be argued that Lebron is better than Jordan.  I think arguing that he's the best player ever is difficult (I think that argument is difficult for Jordan too) but to argue that Lebron is better than Jordan is not out of the real of sanity.

I do believe that Jordan was mentally superior, in that he was ALWAYS focused and locked in...but I believe Lebron is physically superior it's just so hard for any player to match that combination of size, strength, mobility.  In terms is skill level, I'd say they're pretty close.  Both guys were triple double machines and stat-sheet-stuffers of the highest level. 

In my eyes the key point thats separates the two guys is are scoring and defense. 

I didn't see as many Jordan games in those days as I do Lebron games today (they didn't play many NBA games on TV here then) but in the games that I did watch, Jordan always looked like he played just as hard on defense as he did on offense - I can't say the same for Lebron.  His has the ability to be an elite defensive player when he feels like it, but it seems like he only feels like it 60% - 70% of the time.  Other days he just seems to sit here and watch.

Also Jordan's scoring numbers speak for themselves, and Lebron (great as his numbers are) can't touch them.  That just tells me that Lebron isn't as offensively dominant against his opponents as Jordan was against his.

So for those reasons, I put Jordan above Lebron.  But is the theory of Lebron being better completely unjustifiable and ridiculous? Not at all.

If MJ played LBJ in a 1-on-1 (both guys in their prime) then I think Lebron would win.  But if Jordan led his best Bulls team against Lebron's  best Miami team, in a 7 game series...then I think the Bulls win by at least a 4-2 margin.

Ultimately the debate doesn't really matter.  We'll probably never have a definitive answer.  I just wanted to point out that right now we're watching a transcendent star in his prime.  Easily one of the 5 best ever.  Tyson vs Ali doesn't matter.  You're watching Ali in his prime...fans of the sport should try to cut through the jealousy and appreciate what is happening here. 

But just to touch on your comment about JOrdan's scoring numbers.  Look at the career stats:

Jordan:  30.1 points, 6.2 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 2.3 steals, .497/.327/.835  .... Maybe his best all-around season came in a season they didn't win the title:  32.5 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists, 2.9 steals, .538/.276/.850

LeBron:  27.3 points, 7.1 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.7 steals .496/.342/.745  ... Perhaps his best all-around came his final season in Cleveland when he averaged 29.7 points, 8.6 assists and 7.3 rebounds... but because of the efficiency, I'll go with his 2013 stats:  26.8 points, 8.0 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 1.7 steals, .565/.406/.753

They actually aren't that far off.   Bron is bigger, stronger, probably more athletic, a better distance shooter.   He averages less points, but also more assists.    It's something that will be worth debating for a while.  Bron is 30 and is appearing in his 6th Finals.   Jordan at 30 was taking a baseball break after title 3 while Pippen was leading the Bulls to 55 wins without him.  If Bron is still this effective at age 34 (Jordan's final title), the debate may get more serious.

Anyways, I'll let my boy Kendrick Perkins take it from here:

Quote
"Right now we have arguably the best player to ever play the game. I'm just saying, man. I'm not taking anything away from Jordan, but all (James is) missing is titles. A couple of more titles and that's it."

"Just think about it, truthfully, if he wanted to, he could win the MVP every year," Perkins said. "Think about that. He averaged 25 [points], 6 [rebounds] and 7 [assists]. That's absurd, and people are like 'he had a down year.' That's crazy talk. When it's all said and done, he'll probably be the best the game has seen."

EDIT:  One last random note to bring this full circle and get back on topic.  Is it at all funny that people are dogging on LeBron for taking 2 weeks off and speculating on all the terrible things he must have been up to... when Jordan at the same point in his career took a year and a half off.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 02:49:57 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2015, 05:42:00 AM »

Offline walker834

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I think Lebron is definately a roider. It's not even really a question to me.  Tim Duncan no.  jared sullinger.  No.  Russell Westbrook. Yes.  Dwight Howard.  Probably. Kelly Olynyk.  No.  I don't think that's my celtics bias either.  I don't think the celtics get players who use steroids too much if at all.  ROndo was though i think maybe.  Avery Bradley. Marcus Smart.  None of those guys are on roids.  Perkins was just a naturally big dude.   I can just tell how certain players look.   LEbrons face and jawline is messed up.  So is westbrook.  Both players the way they play as well it's like they are juicing.

I dont give lebron credit either like he is the best out there. I just don't.  I don't think he is.  I think Tim Duncan at his age showed that.  Lebron is beatable if teams play smart. He's a freight train because of chemicals.

He's also coddled and helped tremendously by the nba and a bunch of ignorant corrupt people.

IT's a shame too imo because Lebron is definately a talented player.  He would be so much better imo if he played the right way and with heart and integrity and the nba wasn't so messed up that way and just played basketball the right way.

The NBA and teh game is just warped and corrupt at this point where a lot of players dont play to their capabilities or use their intangibles, or smarts in other ways anymore because the game just isnt designed to be that way. Money is such a huge factor and people sell out to whatever way they can to get to the top which is a shame imo. The nba doesnt do anything because ratings are ratings but it would be such a better game if that stuff had no part in it.

Thing is I know how i saw lebron coming in and I had no issue with him.  But he's a jerk.  I'd have no issue giving him his due.  But I just think that's the way he is and I don't.

The sad thing is things are so scientific and these guys have so much money they are probably going to get away with it too with very little harm done.  Back int he day Bonds made mistakes.  Now because of people being outted these guys have gotten smarter and even more scientific with doctors and how to mask it where they don't destroy themselves.  It's almost like more reason to do it where it's beneficial.  That sucks imo.  It's still cheating. It still hurts the integrity of the game for players who don't want to do that stuff.  Society is that way too now where people do all sorts of stuff that  is kind of f'd up.

I don't even enjoy watching players like Lebron and Westbrook play. It's not basketball to me. WAtching Westbrook run up and down the court trying to break records is good for some wins obviously but as far as basketball and winning championships and being a team not so sure about that.  Lebron is more team oriented but it's stlll just something off with how he plays.  It's not basketball. IT's like watching some chemically engineered cyborg.  It's not appealing to me.  If I wanted to watch a video game I would.  It's not basketball.  Lebron still is the poster child for the NBA.  I just choose to not root for that stuff overly.

Bonds was dumb enough to get caught.  People think the game is   getting cleaned up but these guys imo are just getting smarter to not get caught.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 06:29:00 AM by walker834 »

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2015, 08:16:17 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I think based on LarBrd33's criteria, Kevin Garnett is arguably better than Michael Jordan.
no...  Though I think kg may have been better than Duncan when both were in their prime.
Your arguments are that you need size to win and that Lebron had more success when surrounded by role players and in the early stages of his career. You can say the exact same thing about KG.
except KG never had any success
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Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2015, 08:34:33 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I think it does look like he gained weight throughout the season, which is weird since he plays so many minutes and is always plays hard. I choose not to take a stand on the hgh rumors because there is no proof and I would be upset if people were saying the same thing about me. But, he basically looks exactly the same as he did the last few years and it must be awesome to be that strong, fast, and explosive if it is indeed natural.
people need to take off the blinders. He's obviously doing something to enhance his strength. When have you ever seen a guy this big that can move this quick, and never gets injured. He takes 2 weeks off to go to Miami and then suddenly comes back his old self. His facial features are crazy now. He has a face upon a face . had that tumor on his jaw .

Its so obvious...

never gets injured? why don't you keep it real if you are going to attack the GOAT.

The guy is a freak of nature, has always been a freak of nature. I hope he wins it all because he deserves it and Cleveland deserves it.

Best Player in his generation and today? Yes. GOAT? Definitely not.

Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2015, 09:53:57 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think Lebron is definately a roider. It's not even really a question to me.  Tim Duncan no.  jared sullinger.  No.  Russell Westbrook. Yes.  Dwight Howard.  Probably. Kelly Olynyk.  No.  I don't think that's my celtics bias either.  I don't think the celtics get players who use steroids too much if at all.  ROndo was though i think maybe.  Avery Bradley. Marcus Smart.  None of those guys are on roids.  Perkins was just a naturally big dude.   I can just tell how certain players look.   LEbrons face and jawline is messed up.  So is westbrook.  Both players the way they play as well it's like they are juicing.

I dont give lebron credit either like he is the best out there. I just don't.  I don't think he is.  I think Tim Duncan at his age showed that.  Lebron is beatable if teams play smart. He's a freight train because of chemicals.

He's also coddled and helped tremendously by the nba and a bunch of ignorant corrupt people.

IT's a shame too imo because Lebron is definately a talented player.  He would be so much better imo if he played the right way and with heart and integrity and the nba wasn't so messed up that way and just played basketball the right way.

The NBA and teh game is just warped and corrupt at this point where a lot of players dont play to their capabilities or use their intangibles, or smarts in other ways anymore because the game just isnt designed to be that way. Money is such a huge factor and people sell out to whatever way they can to get to the top which is a shame imo. The nba doesnt do anything because ratings are ratings but it would be such a better game if that stuff had no part in it.

Thing is I know how i saw lebron coming in and I had no issue with him.  But he's a jerk.  I'd have no issue giving him his due.  But I just think that's the way he is and I don't.

The sad thing is things are so scientific and these guys have so much money they are probably going to get away with it too with very little harm done.  Back int he day Bonds made mistakes.  Now because of people being outted these guys have gotten smarter and even more scientific with doctors and how to mask it where they don't destroy themselves.  It's almost like more reason to do it where it's beneficial.  That sucks imo.  It's still cheating. It still hurts the integrity of the game for players who don't want to do that stuff.  Society is that way too now where people do all sorts of stuff that  is kind of f'd up.

I don't even enjoy watching players like Lebron and Westbrook play. It's not basketball to me. WAtching Westbrook run up and down the court trying to break records is good for some wins obviously but as far as basketball and winning championships and being a team not so sure about that.  Lebron is more team oriented but it's stlll just something off with how he plays.  It's not basketball. IT's like watching some chemically engineered cyborg.  It's not appealing to me.  If I wanted to watch a video game I would.  It's not basketball.  Lebron still is the poster child for the NBA.  I just choose to not root for that stuff overly.

Bonds was dumb enough to get caught.  People think the game is   getting cleaned up but these guys imo are just getting smarter to not get caught.

Plz mail me some aloe I just burned myself on your hot take.
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Re: Anything disturbing in those pictures?
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2015, 10:43:41 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I made a lengthy post defending LeBron's post-diet Weight gain.  He went on a 67 day diet of meat, veggies and fruit.  Cut out a lot of sugar and carbs in the process.  He lost weight.  Over the course of the season, he gained the weight back.  During that post I made an offhand remark that Lebron is arguably the best ever... and of course that's the main bit that got highlighted. 

I think this was simply a cover story to cover up the getting off the HGH.

I do not know if we will ever know the truth about the PEDs, I suspect that we will find that it was like baseball everyone was doing it.   Do I have proof nope.

But they had weights in the 70s and 80s  some of the best bodybuilders ever like Arnold were back then and NBA players did not have bodies like they did today.  Training has not advanced as much as people said it did and we have found out that old fashioned exercise like the Squat and Deadlift are some of the best mass builders today.  Powerlifting, depth jumps and all that stuff were around back them if you were around people who knew what they were doing.  Training has become more widespread in the league though and guys do it more. 

I think LeBron would have been great without them and if he is on them he is still great.   I do not think he is the best ever but I think he is an all time great and pretty unique in his skillset.   I know people compare him to Magic but to be honest, Magic could not move or leap like LeBron.

I wonder how many of you realize that PEDs are a problem even at the high school level today.