Author Topic: Chad Ford: Upshaw's off-the-court issues more serious than initially thought  (Read 49287 times)

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Offline tazzmaniac

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Here's a good article on Upshaw's issues.  Another article I read mentioned that he'd gone into rehab after his Fresno State dismissal.  Alcohol and drug addiction is serious and recovering from it is difficult and often temporary.  I would not touch Upshaw at #16.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/5/21/8627453/nba-draft-2015-robert-upshaw-washington-sleeper

So get a player with very little upside instead, right?
I'd prefer to trade up with Charlotte or Miami.  However who says there won't be other players available at #16 that have upside?  I'd probably choose from Oubre, Booker, Lyles, Looney, Turner.  One or two of them should be available at #16. 

As for Upshaw, his upside is probably DeAndre Jordan.  However it is far from certain that he'd reach that level even without his addiction problems.  To be dismissed by two college coaches, should tell you how serious Upshaw's issues are.

Well, of course, if those names (sans Booker and Lyles, we disagree on that) are available, we take them. I'm working on the assumption that those names would be taken, which is highly likely, that he's going to be one if not the only one with star potential. So take him and just work with his red flags to keep him check.
Like the Rockets did with Royce White?  It doesn't always work.  We need to get more of a guarantee at #16.  We can't risk ending up with nothing.

The difference is we have a ton more assets than Houston, so we can afford to swing for the fences here.

I'm not denying the risk, all I'm saying is he could probably be the best prospect by the time we need to pick at #16. At the end of the day, you still need talent to win basketball games. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't. But if it does, we may end up having a Center for the foreseeable future. With a lot of picks in the next 5 years coming in, we could afford to gamble this one.

If this is a top 5 pick, I get it. But at #16, I'd gamble on a star potential player with problems than a guaranteed future role player.

He could be the player with the highest upside at #16.  That doesn't mean that it is a good gamble.

I'm not a fan of treating picks like the draft is a crapshoot so you might well go with the player who will pay off the most if you get lucky.

If you want to gamble on Upshaw, I think I'd rather gamble that his problems cause him to slip far enough that you can get him with a lower pick, but it mostly depends on assessing the sort of information that the team should know about but which we don't.

Obviously, it depends on who's there for us at 16 when it's our turn to pick, but are you really willing to let teams like the Spurs, Bulls, and Cavs have a shot at drafting him before our next selection?  The worst case scenario, imo, is for the Timberwolves to take Okafor, leaving Towns to the Lakers *facepalm*, followed by our selection of some crap player at 16, gambling that Upshaw will still be there at 28, only to have the Lakers take him right out from under us at 27, after which the Upshaw-Towns duo dominates for the better part of the next 15 years while we ponder what might have been.  Even if they wind up with Okafor, putting Upshaw next to him is a very frightening proposition.  I know that I'm going to the extreme, here, but I can also see such  nightmare(s) developing, unfortunately.  Sigh.
If your nightmare scenario played out, Ainge would just need to trade up in front of the Lakers.  I think there's a good chance that the Spurs would trade their pick.   

Offline saltlover

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Just a reminder to the board that Ainge has a better understanding of addiction and the recovery process when it comes to professional athletes than most posters on this board.  I would be very surprised if Upshaw were even remotely considered at 16.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2011-04-07-erik-ainge_N.htm

Offline D.o.s.

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Just a reminder to the board that Ainge has a better understanding of addiction and the recovery process when it comes to professional athletes than most posters on this board.  I would be very surprised if Upshaw were even remotely considered at 16.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2011-04-07-erik-ainge_N.htm

Yeah those mormons really have a rep for going hard in the paint on and off the court.

I kid, I kid.
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Offline Jon

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I think with 27 it's a no-brainer.  It gives us several years to see what we have in him. 

With 16, I think it's a much tougher call that depends on two things we don't know yet: 1) Who else is still on the board at #16 and 2) How bad his actual problems were. 


Offline LooseCannon

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Hypothetically, if Upshaw turned out to have a serious cocaine problem, when would you be okay with drafting him?
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Offline gift

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Wouldn't take him in the first round because of the guaranteed contract. I'd take him with #33 though.

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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No at 16, without question at 28. As others have mentioned, we have way too many future draft picks to opt not to gamble at that position. I'd personally provide him with weed, if I could, to keep him happy (and maybe a little relaxed?) in Boston. What I am concerned about are the knocks on his defensive technique and footwork, but I'd take a flyer regardless. Those things can be taught, but his athleticism and size cannot.

If it's something more serious, like yayo? Super. Let's pass drug tests, then put him on the 2nd line with Crowder and enjoy the mayhem they create. :)

The part where you said we have so many draft picks is why you can gamble and pick him at #16.

As I mentioned before, before we get to #28, there are about 5-6 teams who either have free agent centers or no centers on their team. And the Spurs are also among those teams who have the perfect structure for him and a track record of eyeing good talent. He's not going to last at #28. And moving up from #28 just to grab him at, say #22, is now giving assets that we don't need to.

Assuming that Turner and Oubre gets picked before us, who else in that bunch has better upside than him? You take him there and work with him to make sure his past doesn't haunt him. Talent comes first.
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Offline Celtics4ever

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You don't get booted for just smoking dope peacefully in your dorm room. Remember he was really booted 3 times since he was sent away by Washington during his transfer year

Spoken like a man who has never played college sports.  You could absolutely get kicked out when I went to college and definitely off the team.   I know a guy who got busted with weed thrice and was removed from campus and it was game over for him.  It was the late 80s.

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The Legislative Council of the NCAA approved a measure that would reduce the penalty for a positive marijuana drug test. Currently, college athletes face a full year suspension if caught using marijuana, but, after August 1st of this year, the suspension will be reduced to half of a year. - See more at: http://blog.mpp.org/general/ncaa-reduces-penalty-for-a-positive-marijuana-test/04182014/#sthash.rGPRwJOu.dpuf

It has only been more lenient recently.

http://blog.mpp.org/general/ncaa-reduces-penalty-for-a-positive-marijuana-test/04182014/

And yet, Oregon recently in the NCAA had high profile examples

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2326961-did-ncaa-go-too-far-with-oregon-marijuana-suspensions

Unfortunately due to HIPAA we do not know the drugs in question.   It would be nice to know but law affords protection and both suspensions were cited as violation of team rules.

Offline Evantime34

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My opinion is that Upshaw is too big of a risk to pick at 16 due to his off the court issues and what they indicate about his ability to improve as a player. Poor decision making, and a lack of focus have gotten him kicked off of two teams, it isn't a stretch to think these traits hurt his development.

With his character flags, I think 16 is too high for him, since there is a high likelihood he flames out at the NBA level (if history is any indicator). At 28 I would gladly pick him, because the risk is outweighed by his potential. I would even trade 28 and a second or several seconds to grab him at around 20-28.

I believe there will be players available with similar upside, but less risk available at 16. People see the block numbers and think he would be an elite player without the off the court issues. However, Sam Vecenie didn't believe him to be a lottery talent even excluding the off the court stuff.

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Despite his lazy tendencies on the perimeter, on the boards at times, and in the post, his skill around the rim would have made him worth a first-round pick. I still would have had him in the 7-8 range among centers (after Jahlil Okafor, Karl Towns, Willie Cauley-Stein, Myles Turner, Frank Kaminsky and Poeltl, surely), but this is an exceedingly deep draft for big men. I have him at 36th on my big board, and a selection in the 20-30 range wouldn't have been out of the question due to the value he provides inside already, along with some relative upside.

However, his personal situation has far more questions than answers at this point. Will any team want to guarantee Upshaw money for two years and potentially waste a first round pick given his checkered past?
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25010285/robert-upshaws-draft-prospects-have-more-questions-than-answers

I understand fans are starved for a legit shot blocking center, but reaching for a need when there are better less risky prospects available is a way teams often make mistakes in the draft.
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Offline saltlover

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You don't get booted for just smoking dope peacefully in your dorm room. Remember he was really booted 3 times since he was sent away by Washington during his transfer year

Spoken like a man who has never played college sports.  You could absolutely get kicked out when I went to college and definitely off the team.   I know a guy who got busted with weed thrice and was removed from campus and it was game over for him.  It was the late 80s.

Quote
The Legislative Council of the NCAA approved a measure that would reduce the penalty for a positive marijuana drug test. Currently, college athletes face a full year suspension if caught using marijuana, but, after August 1st of this year, the suspension will be reduced to half of a year. - See more at: http://blog.mpp.org/general/ncaa-reduces-penalty-for-a-positive-marijuana-test/04182014/#sthash.rGPRwJOu.dpuf

It has only been more lenient recently.

http://blog.mpp.org/general/ncaa-reduces-penalty-for-a-positive-marijuana-test/04182014/

And yet, Oregon recently in the NCAA had high profile examples

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2326961-did-ncaa-go-too-far-with-oregon-marijuana-suspensions

Unfortunately due to HIPAA we do not know the drugs in question.   It would be nice to know but law affords protection and both suspensions were cited as violation of team rules.

I've posted this in two other threads, but it bears repeating, since people don't seem to actually have looked up Upshaw.

He was suspended twice at Fresno State in his freshman year, before being kicked off the team.  He said it was drugs, school said nothing.  That's three positive tests (minimum, because schools aren't required to suspend for a first offense) in less than a year.

He transferred to Washington, where he sat out a year due to NCAA rules.  He could practice, but in the middle of the year was kicked off the team for undisclosed reasons.  You can find Washington's drug policy online.  You get four positive tests before you're kicked out, no suspension required after any of the first three.  If he was kicked out of UW and Fresno for drugs, that means he had at least 7 positive tests in less than three years, resulting in the dismissal from two programs.

The drug policies you're citing from the NCAA only apply to tests conducted at NCAA run events.  This is what got Mitch McGary suspended for a year (such that he entered the draft), since he tested positive at March Madness.  Schools are allowed to make their own policies for testing conducted on their campus (although they are required to follow them, which is one thing Syracuse is in trouble for).  Probably only BYU and the service academies have policies that are more strict than three tests and you're out.

Offline D.o.s.

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You don't get booted for just smoking dope peacefully in your dorm room. Remember he was really booted 3 times since he was sent away by Washington during his transfer year

Spoken like a man who has never played college sports.  You could absolutely get kicked out when I went to college and definitely off the team.   I know a guy who got busted with weed thrice and was removed from campus and it was game over for him.  It was the late 80s.


Which means it happened nearly 30 years ago, and would have little bearing on a similar scenario today.
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Offline Tr1boy

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The question is can the celts waste 16 worse case?

Is upshaw coachable? I worry about this equally as much.

Will he listen, be able to follow . can he handle criticism, stress. Sitting down then be ready to contribute for 3 mins??


Offline hpantazo

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It speaks volumes for all of these schools and for our society that players get kicked out of programs and basically blacklisted instead of being sent to rehab programs for proper support and guidance tone over from these addictions.

Offline D.o.s.

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Hypothetically, if Upshaw turned out to have a serious cocaine problem, when would you be okay with drafting him?

Yes, but only if we give him #30.
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Offline Celtics4ever

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Schools are allowed to make their own policies for testing conducted on their campus (although they are required to follow them, which is one thing Syracuse is in trouble for).  Probably only BYU and the service academies have policies that are more strict than three tests and you're out.

Private schools can make up whatever rules they want.   A lot depends on the person, an athlete nine times out of ten is going.

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Which means it happened nearly 30 years ago, and would have little bearing on a similar scenario today.

Thanks for not clicking the links, some of those were revised in 2012.

Here is one for you and it is not BYU or the Army

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On Thursday, Indiana University men's basketball head coach Tom Crean announced that he had cut Devin Davis and Hanner Mosquera-Perea from the program, revoking their scholarships and effectively chasing them out of Bloomington. Davis was cited by campus police for possession of marijuana in campus housing earlier this week; Mosquera-Perea was present but never issued a citation.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121819/do-ncaa-athletes-deserve-harsh-punishments-minor-drug-infractions

The actual rules
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What is the penalty for a positive drug test?
The penalty for positive tests of both performance-enhancing and street drugs is strict and automatic. Student-athletes lose one full year of eligibility for the first offense (25 percent of their total eligibility) and are withheld from competition for a full season. A second positive test for street drugs results in another lost year of eligibility and year withheld from competition. A second positive result for PED usage will render the student-athlete permanently ineligible.

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What is the penalty for failing a school-issued drug test?
Each NCAA member is responsible for determining whether to establish an institutional drug-testing program, at which time the school would be responsible for determining applicable penalties. If a testing program is established, though, the school is obligated to enforce the penalties. Failure to do so can lead to NCAA sanctions.

http://www.ncaa.org/health-and-safety/policy/frequently-asked-questions-about-drug-testing

I am not against rolling the dice, folks.  Personally, I think marijuana should be legal so I think that these measures are draconian.