Paul & Griffin: OVER RATED

[wdleehi]

I have no doubt whatsoever that if you trade CBS for Doc straight up the Clippers get better immediately and we get worse immediately. I thought Doc was supposed to be some great coach.  But fair weather coaches usually aren't.

Of course it could make the Clippers.  It would mean they would have to replace the GM, Doc.

[crimson_stallion]

Has either Chris Paul or Blake Griffin EVER been to the conference finals???

One of the greatest CHOKE JOBS in modern NBA playoff HISTORY!!!

Also, the FACT that Paul has been 1st team All-NBA Defense the last three years makes me SICK!!!  Yes, he has quick hands and gets deflections and steals, but he simply is NOT a great perimeter lock-up defender!!!!

I'm sorry, but this is a very poor and extremely inaccurate statement.  Let me demonstrate some of Chris Paul's career stats...

----------------
Regular Season
-----------------

General Stats
18.6 Points
4.4 Rebounds
9.9 Assists
2.3 Steals
2.4 Turnovers
2.5 Personal Fouls


Stats - Offense
0-3 Feet: 60.9%
3-10 Feet: 48.6%
10-16 Feet: 46.6%
16 Feet to 3PT: 45.3%
Three Point: 36.4%
Total Field Goal: 47.4%

True Shooting Percentage: 57.8%


Free Throws Attempted: 5.2
Free Throws Made: 4.4
Free-Throw Percentage: 86.1%
Free Throw Rate (FTA/FGA): 37.4%

Assists: 9.9
Turnovers: 2.4
Assists / Turnover: 4.13

Points Scored: 18.7
Field Goal Attempts: 13.8
Points Per FGA: 1.36
Points Generated by Assists: 22.43
Total Points Generated: 41.13
Total Points Generated per FGA: 2.20

Advanced Stats
PER: 25.6

Offensive Box Plus-Minus: +6.8
Defensive Box Plus-Minus: +0.7
Overall Box Plus- Minus: +7.5

Offensive Win Share: 97.6
Defensive Win Share: 33.7
Total Win Share:  131.3
Win Share per 48: 0.249

Value over Replacement Player: +60.5


Rebounding
Offensive RPG: 0.7
Defensive RPG: 4.0
Total RPG: 4.4

Offensive Rebound Percentage: 2.3%
Defensive Rebound Percentage: 12.0 %
Total Rebound Percentage: 7.1%


----------------
Playoffs
-----------------

General Stats
20.8 Points
4.8 Rebounds
9.5 Assists
2.2 Steals
2.8 Turnovers
3.0 Personal Fouls


Stats - Offense
0-3 Feet: 65.9%
3-10 Feet: 50.5%
10-16 Feet: 49.1%
16 Feet to 3PT: 41.1%
Three Point: 39.1%
Total Field Goal: 48.3%

True Shooting Percentage: 58.4%


Free Throws Attempted: 5.2
Free Throws Made: 4.3
Free-Throw Percentage: 83.4%
Free Throw Rate (FTA/FGA): 33.5%

Assists: 9.5
Turnovers: 2.8
Assists / Turnover: 3.39

Points Scored: 20.8
Field Goal Attempts: 15.5
Points Per FGA: 1.34
Points Generated by Assists: 21.34
Total Points Generated: 42.14
Total Points Generated per FGA: 2.72

Advanced Stats
PER: 25.2

Offensive Box Plus-Minus: +5.9
Defensive Box Plus-Minus: +2.0
Overall Box Plus- Minus: +7.8

Offensive Win Share: 8.5
Defensive Win Share: 1.7
Total Win Share:  10.2
Win Share per 48: 0.200

Value over Replacement Player: +5.1


Rebounding
Offensive RPG: 0.8
Defensive RPG: 4.0
Total RPG: 4.8

Offensive Rebound Percentage: 2.3%
Defensive Rebound Percentage: 12.2 %
Total Rebound Percentage: 7.3%


Ok, now it's your turn to convince me that Chris Paul is overrated and that he chokes in the playoffs. Your homework is to:

1) Finding me 5 other point guards in NBA history with better overall stats then those listed above

2) Find at least 3 statistical categories in which Paul has been significantly worse in the Playoffs versus the regular season

[Blaze4G]

Has either Chris Paul or Blake Griffin EVER been to the conference finals???

One of the greatest CHOKE JOBS in modern NBA playoff HISTORY!!!

Also, the FACT that Paul has been 1st team All-NBA Defense the last three years makes me SICK!!!  Yes, he has quick hands and gets deflections and steals, but he simply is NOT a great perimeter lock-up defender!!!!

I'm sorry, but this is a very poor and extremely inaccurate statement.  Let me demonstrate some of Chris Paul's career stats...

I think the point the OP is trying to make is this:

Chris Paul is a great player, all star, great passer, great efficiency, great floor general.....for 3 quarters.

Chris Paul plays well for the Clippers but when the Clippers NEED him he is nowhere to be found on the court (not always the case but 50% of time). For a superstar you should more often than not show up for the 4th qtr.
My personal belief and assessment of stars vs superstars comes down to one main thing for me. Can they dominate a game late in the 4th to win the game time and time again? If not you are a star or role player, if yes you are a superstar.

I would love to see CP3 4th qtr stats during playoffs.

In regards to this series, it was a complete meltdown by the whole clippers especially Griffin. I would say Crawford but isn't it expected for him to NOT show up during playoffs now? Also I don't regard Doc as a great coach and I place alot of the blame on him too. I was extremely happy when he left celtics.

[crimson_stallion]

I have no doubt whatsoever that if you trade CBS for Doc straight up the Clippers get better immediately and we get worse immediately. I thought Doc was supposed to be some great coach.  But fair weather coaches usually aren't.

Of course it could make the Clippers.  It would mean they would have to replace the GM, Doc.

I disagree.

When Doc made it to the Clippers he made a claim that within a year Deandre Jordan would be  a top 5 - 10 defensive player in the NBA, and we all laughed because he showed no historical signs of improving as a defender (despite his physical talent) and seemed to have the defensive IQ of an onion.

The next season comes and DeAndre Jordan has become an unquestionable max contract player, a (probably) top 5 defensive player in the NBA, and one of the most sought after free agents on the market.

You can deny if you like, but i will tell you now that this had a LOT to do with Doc. 

Doc did a questionable job sometimes at drawing up plays and managing rotations, but every coach (like every player) has their weakness.  Defensively, Boston was pretty much anywhere from very good to elite the entire time Doc was here, but we struggled offensively.

Now with coach BS here we are average defensively, and we still suck offensively.

I have no doubt that Steven's has less to work with (well - compared to our last Doc season that's debatable) but Doc managed to coach a team with some very dominant personalities (Rondo, Perkins, Pierce, Allen, KG) two an NBA championship their first year together - something Spolestra never managed to do with Wade/Bosh/James and very few coaches could do.  Doc somehow earned the respect of all those guys (even Rondo, to a degree) and that's no small achievement.

He also did an amazing job of keeping the team competitive throughout the big 3 era despite a ridiculous number of injuries and a lot of older players, both cases requiring very careful managing of minutes and rotations.

I honestly think Doc is a great coach in terms of his ability to make use of great talent.  He's good at managing ego's and he's an outstanding defensive coach, and I think he's also an excellent motivator.  However I don't think Doc is great when it comes to developing young players - I think he lacks the patience to deal with guys who are slow on the uptake and not good at dealing with poor attitudes.

Stevens is a very calm and patient guy, which makes him excellent at dealing with (and developing) young players.  On the other hand, I'm not sure Steven's would have the assertiveness or the history/experience to be able to deal with big-time superstars with huge ego's (Rondo, KG, Pierce, CP3, etc).

I think Doc is the perfect coach for the Clippers and BS is the perfect coach for the Celtics - I think it's a situation that worked well for both teams.

[Eja117]

Ok. But I'm going on record now as saying CBS the coach is significantly better than Doc Rivers the coach.

[Beat LA]

Paul is quietly a dirty little defender that simply gets away with MURDER!!!  He fouled Harden before Harden crossed half court at least 7 times just in the last 4 minutes with NOT ONE FREAKING CALL.  ANY OTHER player would have been whistled on at least half of those.  It is VERY EASY to look like an "excellent defender" when you can FOUL and NOT get called for FOULING!!!!!  Almost any guard can shoot right over the midget Paul who has a rather limited vertical leap.  To call his a leap is a disservice to wording and shows the limits of our English language!!!

Smitty77

P.S. Go back and watch the STAR of the NBA purposely racking Julius Hodge in the ACC Tourney years ago and just did it again this year!!!

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/1/8329251/clippers-blazers-fight-chris-paul-big-baby-flop

Pure class!!!!!!!!!!!!!  NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

New link to the clearly PURPOSELY grabbing of Kaman's groin!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyzgQONsMik

More on Paul's history of shots below the belt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GuIwgCUQVo

Thank you for saying that, TP.  He's like Isiah Thomas that way (Zeke, not our dude, lol ), but not in any other way, haha , which is how he gets so many steals in the first place, yet the officials still continue to fall for it, as well as that swing-through the defender's arms move that the league 'supposedly' outlawed because of Durant's extreme use of it, but apparently it's still perfectly okay for guys like Paul and Lebron to do it . Typical. 

My personal favorite Paul moment from this past game was when he jumped on Howard at least 3 times and tried to pull him down near the end of the contest.  That's ridiculous.  I've never liked Howard and still think he's a punk, too, but good on him for keeping his composure there, and I know that I'll get a lot of flack for this, but give me Rondo over Paul any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  How many times has CP3 lost series like this?  Let's see, he lost game 7 at home against the Spurs in 2008 after being up 2-0, he went up 3-1 against Memphis in 2012, only to nearly blow that series, as well, before winning game 7 on that road, he blew a 2-0 lead in 2013 against, again, lol , the Grizzlies, when he lost in 6 games, he fouled Curry on the last play of game 3 last year against the Warriors and got away with it, which was huge because the series was tied after the first two games, he blatantly choked away game 5 against OKC in the very next round in, again, 2014, but his greatest achievement to date has got to be this year.  Up 3-1, after blowing the Rockets out in games 3 and 4, I could understand losing game 5, but to be up 19 points near the end of the 3rd quarter, at home, in a closeout game, and wind up losing by 12, and then the series in game 7? Wow.  Why has he continued to be lauded for his accomplishments when his track record speaks for itself?  I don't care what else he does for the rest of his career, if he ever even makes it to the conference finals, lol , because I've seen all that I need to see.  Case closed, and GET OFF THE AIR, lol !

Sidebar - since he's so interested in them, I wonder how Chris likes his balls?  Firm?  Deflated?  Partially deflated?  America needs to know (sarcasm), ahaha !

[wdleehi]

I have no doubt whatsoever that if you trade CBS for Doc straight up the Clippers get better immediately and we get worse immediately. I thought Doc was supposed to be some great coach.  But fair weather coaches usually aren't.

Of course it could make the Clippers.  It would mean they would have to replace the GM, Doc.

I disagree.

When Doc made it to the Clippers he made a claim that within a year Deandre Jordan would be  a top 5 - 10 defensive player in the NBA, and we all laughed because he showed no historical signs of improving as a defender (despite his physical talent) and seemed to have the defensive IQ of an onion.

The next season comes and DeAndre Jordan has become an unquestionable max contract player, a (probably) top 5 defensive player in the NBA, and one of the most sought after free agents on the market.

You can deny if you like, but i will tell you now that this had a LOT to do with Doc. 

Doc did a questionable job sometimes at drawing up plays and managing rotations, but every coach (like every player) has their weakness.  Defensively, Boston was pretty much anywhere from very good to elite the entire time Doc was here, but we struggled offensively.

Now with coach BS here we are average defensively, and we still suck offensively.

I have no doubt that Steven's has less to work with (well - compared to our last Doc season that's debatable) but Doc managed to coach a team with some very dominant personalities (Rondo, Perkins, Pierce, Allen, KG) two an NBA championship their first year together - something Spolestra never managed to do with Wade/Bosh/James and very few coaches could do.  Doc somehow earned the respect of all those guys (even Rondo, to a degree) and that's no small achievement.

He also did an amazing job of keeping the team competitive throughout the big 3 era despite a ridiculous number of injuries and a lot of older players, both cases requiring very careful managing of minutes and rotations.

I honestly think Doc is a great coach in terms of his ability to make use of great talent.  He's good at managing ego's and he's an outstanding defensive coach, and I think he's also an excellent motivator.  However I don't think Doc is great when it comes to developing young players - I think he lacks the patience to deal with guys who are slow on the uptake and not good at dealing with poor attitudes.

Stevens is a very calm and patient guy, which makes him excellent at dealing with (and developing) young players.  On the other hand, I'm not sure Steven's would have the assertiveness or the history/experience to be able to deal with big-time superstars with huge ego's (Rondo, KG, Pierce, CP3, etc).

I think Doc is the perfect coach for the Clippers and BS is the perfect coach for the Celtics - I think it's a situation that worked well for both teams.

I didn't say they would get better because they replaced their coach but it would mean they would replace their GM.  Doc the GM is not that good.  Who has he added that has been a real difference maker?  What depth has he created? 


Doc the coach is fine.  Doc the GM failed to get Doc the coach the tools he needs. 

[crimson_stallion]

I know that I'll get a lot of flack for this, but give me Rondo over Paul any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  How many times has CP3 lost series like this?  Let's see, he lost game 7 at home against the Spurs in 2008 after being up 2-0, he went up 3-1 against Memphis in 2012, only to nearly blow that series, as well, before winning game 7 on that road, he blew a 2-0 lead in 2013 against, again, lol

That's easy to say when Rajon Rondo was playing alongside three future fall of famers that included:

1) KG - A guy who will who will go down as one of the greatest defensive bigs ever to play the game and a 24/14 guy just a couple of seasons before he came to Boston

2) Ray Allen - The NBA's all time leader in three-point field goals made, and unquestionably one of the top 3 or 4 shooters in league history, and a 25 PPG scorer a couple of seasons before coming to Boston

3) Paul Pierce - The second leading scoring in Boston Celtics franchise history, and probably one of the most versatile in history, and a 27 PPG scorer in his prime

On the other hand the best 'side kick' that Chris Paul has ever had would be Blake Griffin, followed by David West in his Hornets days. 

Chris Paul has certainly played with some nice players, but nowhere near the calibre of players Rondo had his entire career.  The first time he had to play a season WITHOUT Pierce and KG was last season, and his team finished 5th last in the league. Then this season his team was almost on target to be just as bad until Rondo (and Green) got traded out for scrub prospects...after which Boston proceeded to go on a tear and made the 7th seed in the East.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but if you look at the facts Chris Paul has achieved much more when he's had limited talent around him than Rondo has.  Even the very worst Paul-led teams have either made the playoffs (and been eliminated early) or just missed the playoffs.  I don't recall any team that was led by CP3 finishing with the 5th worst record in the league, no matter how bad they were.

If you look at where the Clippers have since CP3 arrived there compared to where they were before he got there...I think it's pretty difficult to ignore the impact he had on that team.  Same can be said for the Hornets (now Pelicans) when CP3 was there, compared to the season after he left (in which they were absolutley HORRIBLE). 

He makes every team better.

Also if you look up CP3's career clutch shooting numbers, I think you'll find he's one of the top 5-10 clutch scorers of the past decade...so much for choking.

[byennie]

Now with coach BS here we are average defensively, and we still suck offensively.

Clipping for brevity (and acknowledging that you had many good things to say about CBS), but this sticks out to me. How can we suck on one end of the floor, be average at the other, and yet we still outscored our opponents for the year?

We're not a top offensive team, but we don't suck - which is a decent accomplishment considering the age of the roster.

[Eddie20]

I know that I'll get a lot of flack for this, but give me Rondo over Paul any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  How many times has CP3 lost series like this?  Let's see, he lost game 7 at home against the Spurs in 2008 after being up 2-0, he went up 3-1 against Memphis in 2012, only to nearly blow that series, as well, before winning game 7 on that road, he blew a 2-0 lead in 2013 against, again, lol

That's easy to say when Rajon Rondo was playing alongside three future fall of famers that included:

1) KG - A guy who will who will go down as one of the greatest defensive bigs ever to play the game (who also averaged 19/9 for his carer on top of that)

2) Ray Allen - The NBA's all time leader in three-point field goals made, and unquestionably one of the top 3 or 4 shooters in league history

3) Paul Pierce - The second leading scoring in Boston Celtics franchise history, and probably one of the most versatile and prolific scorers in history period

On the other hand the best 'side kick' that Chris Paul has ever had would be Blake Griffin, followed by David West in his Hornets days. 

Chris Paul has certainly played with some nice players, but nowhere near the calibre of players Rondo had his entire career.  The first time he had to play a season WITHOUT Pierce and KG was last season, and his team finished 5th last in the league. Then this season his team was almost on target to be just as bad until Rondo (and Green) got traded out for scrub prospects...after which Boston proceeded to go on a tear and made the 7th seed in the East.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but if you look at the facts Chris Paul has achieved much more when he's had limited talent around him than Rondo has.  Even the very worst Paul-led teams have either made the playoffs (and been eliminated early) or just missed the playoffs.  I don't recall any team that was led by CP3 finishing with the 5th worst record in the league, no matter how bad they were.

If you look at where the Clippers have since CP3 arrived there compared to where they were before he got there...I think it's pretty difficult to ignore the impact he had on that team.  Same can be said for the Hornets (now Pelicans) when CP3 was there, compared to the season after he left (in which they were absolutley HORRIBLE). 

He makes every team better.

Exhibit A as to why certain drugs should never be legalized. Thinking Rondo is better than Paul is laughable.

[crimson_stallion]

I didn't say they would get better because they replaced their coach but it would mean they would replace their GM.  Doc the GM is not that good.  Who has he added that has been a real difference maker?  What depth has he created? 

Doc the coach is fine.  Doc the GM failed to get Doc the coach the tools he needs.

That's a fair call.  Personnel selection has never (IMO) been Doc's strong suit.

[LooseCannon]

The next season comes and DeAndre Jordan has become an unquestionable max contract player, a (probably) top 5 defensive player in the NBA, and one of the most sought after free agents on the market.

I'm not sure if DeAndre Jordan cracks the top 5 on my list of free agent centers I would like to see sign with the Celtics.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

I won't call Chris Paul overrated, I just can't. 21 points, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 50% FG, 42% 3PT, only 2 TO's in the Playoffs. That's not overrated at all.

Blake Griffin on the other hand, I agree. You can't be called a top quality player in the NBA and wilt in the 4th quarters.

[Smitty77]

Paul is quietly a dirty little defender that simply gets away with MURDER!!!  He fouled Harden before Harden crossed half court at least 7 times just in the last 4 minutes with NOT ONE FREAKING CALL.  ANY OTHER player would have been whistled on at least half of those.  It is VERY EASY to look like an "excellent defender" when you can FOUL and NOT get called for FOULING!!!!!  Almost any guard can shoot right over the midget Paul who has a rather limited vertical leap.  To call his a leap is a disservice to wording and shows the limits of our English language!!!

Smitty77

P.S. Go back and watch the STAR of the NBA purposely racking Julius Hodge in the ACC Tourney years ago and just did it again this year!!!

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/1/8329251/clippers-blazers-fight-chris-paul-big-baby-flop

Pure class!!!!!!!!!!!!!  NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

New link to the clearly PURPOSELY grabbing of Kaman's groin!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyzgQONsMik

More on Paul's history of shots below the belt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GuIwgCUQVo

Thank you for saying that, TP.  He's like Isiah Thomas that way (Zeke, not our dude, lol ), but not in any other way, haha , which is how he gets so many steals in the first place, yet the officials still continue to fall for it, as well as that swing-through the defender's arms move that the league 'supposedly' outlawed because of Durant's extreme use of it, but apparently it's still perfectly okay for guys like Paul and Lebron to do it . Typical. 

My personal favorite Paul moment from this past game was when he jumped on Howard at least 3 times and tried to pull him down near the end of the contest.  That's ridiculous.  I've never liked Howard and still think he's a punk, too, but good on him for keeping his composure there, and I know that I'll get a lot of flack for this, but give me Rondo over Paul any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  How many times has CP3 lost series like this?  Let's see, he lost game 7 at home against the Spurs in 2008 after being up 2-0, he went up 3-1 against Memphis in 2012, only to nearly blow that series, as well, before winning game 7 on that road, he blew a 2-0 lead in 2013 against, again, lol , the Grizzlies, when he lost in 6 games, he fouled Curry on the last play of game 3 last year against the Warriors and got away with it, which was huge because the series was tied after the first two games, he blatantly choked away game 5 against OKC in the very next round in, again, 2014, but his greatest achievement to date has got to be this year.  Up 3-1, after blowing the Rockets out in games 3 and 4, I could understand losing game 5, but to be up 19 points near the end of the 3rd quarter, at home, in a closeout game, and wind up losing by 12, and then the series in game 7? Wow.  Why has he continued to be lauded for his accomplishments when his track record speaks for itself?  I don't care what else he does for the rest of his career, if he ever even makes it to the conference finals, lol , because I've seen all that I need to see.  Case closed, and GET OFF THE AIR, lol !

Sidebar - since he's so interested in them, I wonder how Chris likes his balls?  Firm?  Deflated?  Partially deflated?  America needs to know (sarcasm), ahaha !

OK Beat LA.  That might be perhaps the post of the YEAR.  If I knew how to give a Tommy Point, you just earned one!!!  If I could give you 100 TP's at once, I would:-)))

Smitty77

[Celtics4ever]

I would not mind having either one of this over rated guys on our roster.  What are our guys chopped liver?