Author Topic: We made it to Shaqtin a fool  (Read 6274 times)

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Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2015, 11:44:38 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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So many people talk about Lebron's supposedly super high Basketball IQ, but to be honest I've never seen it.

I dislike the guy almost to the point of hate and I will concede that he is a good passer which is indicative of high basketball IQ and Court Awareness.  He has averaged 7.1 APG for his career, that is better than a good percentage of guards in this league.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

Watch these and see if you still feel that way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx5lTh3oWLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

He does have superb court vision folks.

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2015, 03:51:04 PM »

Offline mgent

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LeBron has some of the best court awareness in the league for his size, but I personally wouldn't consider court awareness and BBIQ the same thing.  Elite BBIQ requires extremely high real life IQ.

Rather than passing skill, I would tend to look at things like knowing when to pass vs shoot, knowing when to pull-up vs drive, knowing when to fade away vs initiate contact etc.  LeBron just initiates contact every time, knowing he usually gets bailed out by the refs.  Some of his 3s and jumpshots aren't very smart, especially when you factor in how good he is at the basket.  I also don't think it's very smart the way he goes for assists the first 3 quarters and waits til the 4th to take over with shots.  It wasn't smart for him to wait 9 years in the league before he started posting up.

Obviously LeBron has good BBIQ, it's not a weakness of his, but let's be honest.  He is where he is because of his physical gifts, not because he's some sort of extremely cerebral player.

Watch the way Tony Parker operates in the paint if you want to see what elite BBIQ looks like.  It looks absolutely nothing like LeBron's constant barreling into people.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2015, 06:19:26 PM »

Offline greece66

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"Elite BBIQ requires extremely high real life IQ."
If you mean that there is a strong correlation between 'the real' IQ and BBIQ, this is a very strong claim to make. 'Real' IQ is about intelligence very narrowly defined, mostly based on mathematical and logical skills- hence, it is pretty good at predicting which kids can become good mathematicians, programmers or chess players, but I doubt it has much to do with basketball  (or most other good things in life). Btw, this is also why draftexpress discusses the players character, style of play, skills etc in detail but hell, not their IQ.
(Now, I am not saying in any way that bball players are 'silly', just that this a case of apples and oranges).
And just for the record, I think LBJ is very [dang] intelligent - not only in bball terms.

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2015, 07:05:29 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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LeBron is many things but he does not lack basketball IQ or acumen.

So many people talk about Lebron's supposedly super high Basketball IQ, but to be honest I've never seen it.

I look at guys like Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett and I see a bunch of guys who constantly seem to defeat opponents with their minds - by always being one step ahead, or by making those little moves to throw their defenders /offensive assignments off.

With Lebron I've just never seen that.  Every time I've watched him play he is beating guys with his size, strength and athleticism - just his pure physical dominance.  I don't think I have ever seen Lebron make a play on either end of the floor that left me thinking "[dang], that was a smart play".
Did you watch his early career? The main criticism of Lebron in his early career was that he didn't fully leverage his size, strength, and athleticism and too often made what would be the best play for a lesser player, but not the best play for someone so gifted.

It is like you are penalizing him for having the option of imposing his will, to the point of forgetting that he played too much like a PG early in his career instead of forcing the issue when needed.

The dude has an elite BBIQ. Had it from day one in the league. He became the best player in the league because he paired BB genius with a ridiculous physique.

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2015, 07:13:29 PM »

Offline mgent

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@mgent
"Elite BBIQ requires extremely high real life IQ."
If you mean that there is a strong correlation between 'the real' IQ and BBIQ, this is a very strong claim to make. 'Real' IQ is about intelligence very narrowly defined, mostly based on mathematical and logical skills- hence, it is pretty good at predicting which kids can become good mathematicians, programmers or chess players, but I doubt it has much to do with basketball  (or most other good things in life). Btw, this is also why draftexpress discusses the players character, style of play, skills etc in detail but hell, not their IQ.
(Now, I am not saying in any way that bball players are 'silly', just that this a case of apples and oranges).
And just for the record, I think LBJ is very [dang] intelligent - not only in bball terms.

Guess you haven't heard the majority of things he has said throughout his career.  :P

In seriousness though, I think a good chess player (or mathematician/programmer) would happen to make a better bball player than a bad chess player assuming all their physical attributes/abilities were identical.  Likewise, I think there's probably a connection with Rondo being so good at seeing how a game of connect 4 is playing out and his ability to see how a basketball play is going to unfold.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2015, 07:17:34 PM »

Offline greece66

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@mgent
"Elite BBIQ requires extremely high real life IQ."
If you mean that there is a strong correlation between 'the real' IQ and BBIQ, this is a very strong claim to make. 'Real' IQ is about intelligence very narrowly defined, mostly based on mathematical and logical skills- hence, it is pretty good at predicting which kids can become good mathematicians, programmers or chess players, but I doubt it has much to do with basketball  (or most other good things in life). Btw, this is also why draftexpress discusses the players character, style of play, skills etc in detail but hell, not their IQ.
(Now, I am not saying in any way that bball players are 'silly', just that this a case of apples and oranges).
And just for the record, I think LBJ is very [dang] intelligent - not only in bball terms.

Guess you haven't heard the majority of things he has said throughout his career.  :P

In seriousness though, I think a good chess player (or mathematician/programmer) would happen to make a better bball player than a bad chess player assuming all their physical attributes/abilities were identical. Likewise, I think there's probably a connection with Rondo being so good at seeing how a game of connect 4 is playing out and his ability to see how a basketball play is going to unfold.
Agreed  ;D
If only he were 7ft tall

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2015, 07:20:35 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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  Elite BBIQ requires extremely high real life IQ.
 

Maybe if you use Gardner's different types of intelligence, perhaps in spatial awareness.  But I don't think all the guys with a great basketball IQ are Einsteins.   Bob Cousy and Larry had great basketball IQs and I don't think Stephen Hawking is fearful they are going to put him out of business.


Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2015, 07:25:26 PM »

Offline mgent

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LeBron is many things but he does not lack basketball IQ or acumen.

So many people talk about Lebron's supposedly super high Basketball IQ, but to be honest I've never seen it.

I look at guys like Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett and I see a bunch of guys who constantly seem to defeat opponents with their minds - by always being one step ahead, or by making those little moves to throw their defenders /offensive assignments off.

With Lebron I've just never seen that.  Every time I've watched him play he is beating guys with his size, strength and athleticism - just his pure physical dominance.  I don't think I have ever seen Lebron make a play on either end of the floor that left me thinking "[dang], that was a smart play".
Did you watch his early career? The main criticism of Lebron in his early career was that he didn't fully leverage his size, strength, and athleticism and too often made what would be the best play for a lesser player, but not the best play for someone so gifted.

It is like you are penalizing him for having the option of imposing his will, to the point of forgetting that he played too much like a PG early in his career instead of forcing the issue when needed.

The dude has an elite BBIQ. Had it from day one in the league. He became the best player in the league because he paired BB genius with a ridiculous physique.

What in the world is the point you're trying to make?

Wouldn't a smarter player have made better choices?
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2015, 07:29:30 PM »

Offline mgent

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  Elite BBIQ requires extremely high real life IQ.
 

Maybe if you use Gardner's different types of intelligence, perhaps in spatial awareness.  But I don't think all the guys with a great basketball IQ are Einsteins.   Bob Cousy and Larry had great basketball IQs and I don't think Stephen Hawking is fearful they are going to put him out of business.

Funny you mention Einstein, because it's all relative.  I'm sure Cousy and Bird did have high IQs for basketball players.  Among physists, they probably didn't even register.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2015, 08:59:59 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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LeBron is many things but he does not lack basketball IQ or acumen.

So many people talk about Lebron's supposedly super high Basketball IQ, but to be honest I've never seen it.

I look at guys like Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett and I see a bunch of guys who constantly seem to defeat opponents with their minds - by always being one step ahead, or by making those little moves to throw their defenders /offensive assignments off.

With Lebron I've just never seen that.  Every time I've watched him play he is beating guys with his size, strength and athleticism - just his pure physical dominance.  I don't think I have ever seen Lebron make a play on either end of the floor that left me thinking "[dang], that was a smart play".
Did you watch his early career? The main criticism of Lebron in his early career was that he didn't fully leverage his size, strength, and athleticism and too often made what would be the best play for a lesser player, but not the best play for someone so gifted.

It is like you are penalizing him for having the option of imposing his will, to the point of forgetting that he played too much like a PG early in his career instead of forcing the issue when needed.

The dude has an elite BBIQ. Had it from day one in the league. He became the best player in the league because he paired BB genius with a ridiculous physique.

What in the world is the point you're trying to make?

Wouldn't a smarter player have made better choices?
First, intelligence does not lead to better decision making.

Second, the problem was personality, not his ability to process everything going on. He could process it all, but his personality was such that he sought to keep his teammates involved to a fault. Aggressiveness is a different variable.

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2015, 09:47:17 PM »

Offline mgent

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LeBron is many things but he does not lack basketball IQ or acumen.

So many people talk about Lebron's supposedly super high Basketball IQ, but to be honest I've never seen it.

I look at guys like Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett and I see a bunch of guys who constantly seem to defeat opponents with their minds - by always being one step ahead, or by making those little moves to throw their defenders /offensive assignments off.

With Lebron I've just never seen that.  Every time I've watched him play he is beating guys with his size, strength and athleticism - just his pure physical dominance.  I don't think I have ever seen Lebron make a play on either end of the floor that left me thinking "[dang], that was a smart play".
Did you watch his early career? The main criticism of Lebron in his early career was that he didn't fully leverage his size, strength, and athleticism and too often made what would be the best play for a lesser player, but not the best play for someone so gifted.

It is like you are penalizing him for having the option of imposing his will, to the point of forgetting that he played too much like a PG early in his career instead of forcing the issue when needed.

The dude has an elite BBIQ. Had it from day one in the league. He became the best player in the league because he paired BB genius with a ridiculous physique.

What in the world is the point you're trying to make?

Wouldn't a smarter player have made better choices?
First, intelligence does not lead to better decision making.

Second, the problem was personality, not his ability to process everything going on. He could process it all, but his personality was such that he sought to keep his teammates involved to a fault. Aggressiveness is a different variable.

I could buy the assertion that his personality is responsible for him saying such dumb things off the court, but obviously someone who was smart enough wouldn't let his personality get in the way of making him a better basketball player.

How is aggressiveness a different variable?

Is it not controlled by your brain?




Obviously if LeBron has made wrong choices, he wasn't strong enough mentally, it's not a physical problem.

Sorry, but to be honest, "intelligence does not lead to better decision making," is probably the most confusing assertion I've ever heard.  I need more explaination.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2015, 09:50:46 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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LeBron is many things but he does not lack basketball IQ or acumen.

So many people talk about Lebron's supposedly super high Basketball IQ, but to be honest I've never seen it.

I look at guys like Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett and I see a bunch of guys who constantly seem to defeat opponents with their minds - by always being one step ahead, or by making those little moves to throw their defenders /offensive assignments off.

With Lebron I've just never seen that.  Every time I've watched him play he is beating guys with his size, strength and athleticism - just his pure physical dominance.  I don't think I have ever seen Lebron make a play on either end of the floor that left me thinking "[dang], that was a smart play".
Did you watch his early career? The main criticism of Lebron in his early career was that he didn't fully leverage his size, strength, and athleticism and too often made what would be the best play for a lesser player, but not the best play for someone so gifted.

It is like you are penalizing him for having the option of imposing his will, to the point of forgetting that he played too much like a PG early in his career instead of forcing the issue when needed.

The dude has an elite BBIQ. Had it from day one in the league. He became the best player in the league because he paired BB genius with a ridiculous physique.

What in the world is the point you're trying to make?

Wouldn't a smarter player have made better choices?
First, intelligence does not lead to better decision making.

Second, the problem was personality, not his ability to process everything going on. He could process it all, but his personality was such that he sought to keep his teammates involved to a fault. Aggressiveness is a different variable.

I could buy the assertion that his personality is responsible for him saying such dumb things off the court, but obviously someone who was smart enough wouldn't let his personality get in the way of making him a better basketball player.

How is aggressiveness a different variable?

Is it not controlled by your brain?





Sorry, but to be honest, "intelligence does not lead to better decision making," is probably the most confusing assertion I've ever heard.  I need more explaination,

*cough* Rondo *cough*
I'm bitter.

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2015, 10:00:32 PM »

Offline mgent

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LeBron is many things but he does not lack basketball IQ or acumen.

So many people talk about Lebron's supposedly super high Basketball IQ, but to be honest I've never seen it.

I look at guys like Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett and I see a bunch of guys who constantly seem to defeat opponents with their minds - by always being one step ahead, or by making those little moves to throw their defenders /offensive assignments off.

With Lebron I've just never seen that.  Every time I've watched him play he is beating guys with his size, strength and athleticism - just his pure physical dominance.  I don't think I have ever seen Lebron make a play on either end of the floor that left me thinking "[dang], that was a smart play".
Did you watch his early career? The main criticism of Lebron in his early career was that he didn't fully leverage his size, strength, and athleticism and too often made what would be the best play for a lesser player, but not the best play for someone so gifted.

It is like you are penalizing him for having the option of imposing his will, to the point of forgetting that he played too much like a PG early in his career instead of forcing the issue when needed.

The dude has an elite BBIQ. Had it from day one in the league. He became the best player in the league because he paired BB genius with a ridiculous physique.

What in the world is the point you're trying to make?

Wouldn't a smarter player have made better choices?
First, intelligence does not lead to better decision making.

Second, the problem was personality, not his ability to process everything going on. He could process it all, but his personality was such that he sought to keep his teammates involved to a fault. Aggressiveness is a different variable.

I could buy the assertion that his personality is responsible for him saying such dumb things off the court, but obviously someone who was smart enough wouldn't let his personality get in the way of making him a better basketball player.

How is aggressiveness a different variable?

Is it not controlled by your brain?





Sorry, but to be honest, "intelligence does not lead to better decision making," is probably the most confusing assertion I've ever heard.  I need more explaination,

*cough* Rondo *cough*

That's obviously arguable.  Rondo is no where near an elite scorer, and has never come close to playing with players who were worse scorers than him.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2015, 10:32:02 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Are Celticsblog threads eligible for "Shaqtin a fool"?

Re: We made it to Shaqtin a fool
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2015, 11:48:28 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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LeBron is many things but he does not lack basketball IQ or acumen.

So many people talk about Lebron's supposedly super high Basketball IQ, but to be honest I've never seen it.

I look at guys like Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett and I see a bunch of guys who constantly seem to defeat opponents with their minds - by always being one step ahead, or by making those little moves to throw their defenders /offensive assignments off.

With Lebron I've just never seen that.  Every time I've watched him play he is beating guys with his size, strength and athleticism - just his pure physical dominance.  I don't think I have ever seen Lebron make a play on either end of the floor that left me thinking "[dang], that was a smart play".
Did you watch his early career? The main criticism of Lebron in his early career was that he didn't fully leverage his size, strength, and athleticism and too often made what would be the best play for a lesser player, but not the best play for someone so gifted.

It is like you are penalizing him for having the option of imposing his will, to the point of forgetting that he played too much like a PG early in his career instead of forcing the issue when needed.

The dude has an elite BBIQ. Had it from day one in the league. He became the best player in the league because he paired BB genius with a ridiculous physique.

What in the world is the point you're trying to make?

Wouldn't a smarter player have made better choices?
First, intelligence does not lead to better decision making.

Second, the problem was personality, not his ability to process everything going on. He could process it all, but his personality was such that he sought to keep his teammates involved to a fault. Aggressiveness is a different variable.

I could buy the assertion that his personality is responsible for him saying such dumb things off the court, but obviously someone who was smart enough wouldn't let his personality get in the way of making him a better basketball player.

How is aggressiveness a different variable?

Is it not controlled by your brain?


Obviously if LeBron has made wrong choices, he wasn't strong enough mentally, it's not a physical problem.

Sorry, but to be honest, "intelligence does not lead to better decision making," is probably the most confusing assertion I've ever heard.  I need more explaination.
You are confusing intelligence with many other things. "Strong enough mentally"? What does that have to do with intelligence? What does that even mean? Did Odom lack intelligence or BBIQ, or was he emotionally unstable? Two different things. Rasheed Wallace had a high BBIQ, but he had temper issues on the court that led to Ts (which were almost never smart plays) and he also was in love with the 3. Rondo has a high BBIQ, but he also refuses to submit to systems that don't match his intuitive feel for the game. Rondo is one of those people who is too smart for his own good, as he doesn't seem to appreciate that no one person, not even himself, ever has all the answers.

Style is an independent variable from BBIQ. Lebron has an elite ability to understand what is going on during a game. He is not like Melo. Melo just tries to force his way though defenders he can't force his way through. Lebron had the ability to play like a PG or to play as a relentless scorer. People who say he just forces his way to the rim are clearly wrong based on his the tons of video out there of him running a team's offense. He can successfully run an offense without even trying to score.

The early criticism of Lebron was that though his facilitating style and desire to always "make the best play" worked great for most of the season, he needed to try to take take the important shots more at the end of playoff games. This criticism was based on the low quality of his teammates. Because his teammates in Cleveland were so underwhelming, most people felt they should not be trusted in 4th quarter of playoff games -- even though this approach worked so well for most of the year. When the 4th quarter of playoff games comes, the success rates of different plays seems to get flipped on its head and it may be true that what is normally the best play ceases to be at that point. The reality is that the people critiquing him may have been completely wrong, as armchair quarterbacks often are. But what is significant for this thread is that the claim that all Lebron does is force his way to the rim does not match the way Lebron has played during his career.

Regarding decision making, there is plenty of research on IQ and decision making and how people with high IQs still make irrational decisions like everyone else. For this reason, I think it is wrong to think that BBIQ is analogous to IQ or even intelligence (which is too broad a term to use in such a conversation), since when we think of high BBIQ, we think of players who are able to make good decisions during games.

We should also recognize that players have styles of play as well as irrational hangups. KG in Boston regularly did not take close shots that he should have taken because either he wanted to keep everyone engaged, or perhaps there was some emotional issue tied to his dealing with his physical decline that made him reluctant to make the right play. I'm sure we can all remember moment where he threw the ball away on a risky pass instead of taking a pretty simple 4 footer. Did that mean that his BBIQ was less at the end of his career? No, it just means that a lot goes on in a players head besides their knowledge of the game and the situation.