Author Topic: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions  (Read 17988 times)

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Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2015, 02:27:26 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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For me player talent and ability on the court Rondo prime> Toine Prime. Team impact though belongs to Toine. Toine helped the team become a playoff bound. Rondo kind of rode on the big threes shoulders. When big three left Rondo wasn't half as good as when they were around. Toine was a baller for years no matter the teammates.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2015, 02:30:34 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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One semi-incidental note: Both played very similar roles on their respective championship team. Toine was a role player, maybe the 4th or 5th best player on the team...same as Rondo.

Definitely a role player, but Antoine was actually the second-leading scorer for the Heat in the Finals that season.

Woah somehow I didn't realize that.  Toine averaged 37.5 minutes during that playoffs that year.  He averaged 13.3 points, 5.6 rebounds, 2.4 assists and a steal.    Toine was arguably more important to the 2005 champs than Rondo was to the 2008 Champs.  Fascinating.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2015, 02:14:55 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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One semi-incidental note: Both played very similar roles on their respective championship team. Toine was a role player, maybe the 4th or 5th best player on the team...same as Rondo.

Definitely a role player, but Antoine was actually the second-leading scorer for the Heat in the Finals that season.

Woah somehow I didn't realize that.  Toine averaged 37.5 minutes during that playoffs that year.  He averaged 13.3 points, 5.6 rebounds, 2.4 assists and a steal.    Toine was arguably more important to the 2005 champs than Rondo was to the 2008 Champs.  Fascinating.

As for 2008, the fourth player was really James Posey.

If 'Toine was 23 years of age, in the KG era, as 4th/5th man, he'd be able to give rest to both the 3 & 4 spots. Think about how huge that would be? It's obvious that given enough rest, PP and KG could carry a team on their backs.

What was the main problem during the KG era? ... the so-called 2nd squad was rudderless. How many games did Doc rest the big three, only to lose 15+ point leads? With 'Toine on board, there would have been no such problems. He was as much a leader as KG, but with a bit more flair and playfulness. He didn't act like Atlas with a globe on his shoulders. He enjoyed his job.

I'm sorry, but for me, a sulking point guard, looking for an assist, or some *dream shake* layup, is only as valuable as his general level of athleticism, almost like a "pass first" Ricky Davis, but w/o a jumpshot. An overall team player and one who can engage his teammates, outside of forcing them to run around screens all day, is a better player to have on a team with 3 HoFers. Walker was that man. It's just too bad that his time on the Cs was under Pitino & O'Brien, where the solid aspects of his game were overshadowed by a certain amount of daily sloppy habits.


Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2015, 03:11:46 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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The other thing I want to mention is that the vaunted assists total, isn't all that important.

Larry Bird only had a 6-7 assists per game career average, but yet, he'd passed the ball, many more times than that. In effect, he was looking for ball movement, not just some wide open guy who can hit a jumper. So if a Bird pass, resulted in a dribble, plus a basket, it didn't count as an assist. But did Bird care? No, he was more interested in facilitating the game.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2015, 07:16:44 PM »

Offline Onslaught

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You guys are forgetting that Rondo's not done yet. He could go to the Lakers and help screw them up even more down the road. So it's possible he's not done contributing to the Celtics yet.


I happen to like Rondo. But I'm not sad he's gone anymore. I was never a big Toine fan but he did seem to love being a Celtic so I don't hate on him too much.
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Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2015, 07:30:10 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Rondo was the far better player. Had a higher eFG%. Was a better defender. Was more respected and feared at his position. Had a far better contract for the Celts, so even if Toine did make more contributions they cost more.

Toine was just a clown that really liked what he did and wasn't always in great shape and hustled a lot.

It's unfortunate they both had subpar coaches (except CBS for Rondo for a short period of time).

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2015, 07:38:59 PM »

Offline moiso

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Rondo was the far better player. Had a higher eFG%. Was a better defender. Was more respected and feared at his position. Had a far better contract for the Celts, so even if Toine did make more contributions they cost more.

Toine was just a clown that really liked what he did and wasn't always in great shape and hustled a lot.

It's unfortunate they both had subpar coaches (except CBS for Rondo for a short period of time).
[/quote/ Jim Obrien now seems 10 years ahead of his time with the great defense and all the 3 point attempts.  And I don't think Doc was subpar.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2015, 08:19:47 PM »

Offline Greenback

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Walker was a much better player.  I would rate his career:  C+

Rondo's career I would rate:  D+   Yeah, he scored 40 points once but so did Acie Earl.


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Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2015, 09:14:51 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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The two elite one-on-one defenders, Sydney Moncrief and Michael Cooper, were some 6'4" and 6'5". In contrast, Rondo was 6'1" and wasn't as primer of a defender as those two, since he could mainly cover the smaller guards better than taller swingmen. Rondo was more a person who relied on his pure athleticism to gain an advantage over others.

Since the C's already had Tony Allen for defense, I don't believe they needed Rondo for that specialist role. The C's needed someone who could mix things up and keep the ball moving, not in simply setting up the Big Three to score.

The fact that Doc needed to always keep one of the Big Three on the court at all times, said that Walker could have easily been that floor leader when the stars were on the bench. I'm certain that a lineup of Walker, Perks, BBD, House, and T Allen could help in maintaining a 15 point lead, before one of the stars returned from his rest.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2015, 10:58:00 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Rondo for me, he won his title here.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2015, 08:06:49 AM »

Offline TitleMaster

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Rondo for me, he won his title here.

For me, that was Posey's title, not Rondo's.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2015, 08:51:48 AM »

Offline clover

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Rondo for me, he won his title here.

For me, that was Posey's title, not Rondo's.

That wasn't Posey's title--his contributions have been increasingly exaggerated over time.

But I think the Toine vs Rondo minus the Big Three comparison is fair. The difference is that Toine by all accounts was a great guy who treated everyone in the organization, from great to small, very well. Rondo of course was a first-class jerk. So in sum I come down on the side of Walker in the comparison.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2015, 09:34:46 AM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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In addition, even though his shot selection was poor, 'Toine still managed a ~40 FG% and was never afraid to take a shot. In itself, it kept opponent's defenses working because you never knew when he'd heat up. In contrast, defenses had left Rondo wide open, but tried to limit his drives to the basket. It was a highly effective maneuver, if others weren't coming off a screen.  Antoine's unpredictability, in contrast, was actually useful, as a way to get Pierce and others open looks.

Sounds similar to Josh Smith
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Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2015, 09:45:07 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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loved them both while they were here.  both were frustrating at times but they also each gave me moments of utter joy watching them.  hated it when they were traded away. 

the one thing that will always link them is the divisiveness they create with C's fans.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2015, 10:13:25 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Rondo for me, he won his title here.

For me, that was Posey's title, not Rondo's.
Posey already had a title, though:



 :)

on topic I prefer Rondo simply because his game (at his peak/fully engaged/whatever qualifiers I have to include so people don't go "OH THE GUY WHO QUIT ON HIS TEAM AND LOOKED FOR HIS NUMBERS HURR DURR DURR") is less easily recreated. We will see a million Antoine Walkers before we see another Rajon Rondo.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 10:18:50 AM by D.o.s. »
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