Author Topic: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions  (Read 17995 times)

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Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2015, 01:03:06 AM »

Offline TitleMaster

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As for Toine vs Rondo, I realize that they came along at different times, but still, it's no contest, again, imo.  I'll take Rondo over Walker any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  In fact, especially on Sunday, lol. ;) ;D I'm curious, though - was Antoine ever praised by any of the Celtic greats in the same way that Rondo was by Cousy, etc,. because I wasn't watching then.

Rondo's success was in an age of 3 HoFers. In effect, his dream shake and other near hoop antics happened, because the opponents were focused on not letting Pierce, RA, and KG, have easy opportunities. Was Antoine given such a setup, to display his talents (assuming that he had any)?

I think not. Antoine was living through a period where for the most part, any Celtics victory was hit or miss, depending upon how hot the team got. In contrast, Rondo was living under KG's tutelage and that's a huge difference. Under those conditions, I think Antoine did rather all right and may have been a greater contributor, if he were a young man under KG's guidance.




Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2015, 01:18:12 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Give me Toine.  He was more important to his era and, honestly, Toine's the better player.  He was a chucker, but he was a 20pt, 8 reb, 5 ast chucker who came to play just about every night.

Mike

And that's a big part of my point, in an era with KG, as the vocal leader of the Celts, a young Antoine would have done just fine, as he'd fit into his role of being the quirky, 4th man on the squad.

This 4th man role, instead of being forced to play co-franchise player, would have brought out the best in him, as he'd basically facilitate ball movement, get his normal stats, but get others involved in the game. I believe this impact, would have exceeded that of Rondo, as Walker would not have needed to have ballhogged the ball, to get get off the right pass for an assist.

Really?  I respect your view, but what about the comparison in terms of defense, because that's not even close, imo.  I also think that Rondo is a better rebounder than Antoine was, but again, to each his own.  I just don't think that Walker would have been able to get on the court on those KG teams.  What position would he have played, would he have been starting, and who was he going to guard?  Odom, perhaps, or maybe Jamison, although I don't think that Antoine would have exactly locked them down, lol. ;D At least during our last run, Rondo set the tone defensively, along with KG (obviously), by pressuring the guards of the opposition and forcing them into turnovers.  When did Antoine ever do anything like that?  I also don't recall Walker ever making an all-defensive team, either, which Rondo did 4 times.  Furthermore, Rondo bests him in all star games, as well as leading the league in apg and triple doubles twice, not to mention his franchise records in the regular season and the playoffs, while the only thing that Antoine ever led the league in, iirc, was the dubious category of most 3-pointers attempted, lol. ;D Wow. ::) It's not that I believe that Antoine was a bad player, it's just that I don't believe he was ever on Rondo's level.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2015, 01:29:18 AM »

Offline TitleMaster

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In terms of defense, you talk about Rondo, as if he's Michael Cooper or Sydney Moncrief reincarnated. He wasn't among the greatest defenders of all time.

For the most part, many C's players played defense, up to their own individual abilities. It's the coaches job, to help in making adjustments, between various matchups.

Tony Allen was a great one-on-one defender, though a limited offensive player. You could then reverse those parameters on Antoine. 'Tione could score or pass, while Allen held off another parameter player.




Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2015, 08:14:24 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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My complaint about the KG era was that aside from '08 & '09, many of our regular season outings were not so spectacular, given the talent on the roster. Sure, the whole notion of 'Sheed taking a vacation during '10 was evident, however, in addition to that, teams would play us, 5 on 4. It was clear that as time went by, more and more opponents were challenging Rondo to take the open shot.

I suspect that if there were a 23 year old Walker on the KG squad, an opponent would always play 5 on 5, daily, because if someone sagged off Antoine, he would set his feet correctly and take a 50 FG% jumpshot, since he could in fact, shoot the ball (given enough time to get setup), despite his general poor shot selection in other areas of the game.

And unlike Rondo, he wouldn't grow bored during the regular season and run around dribbling the clock down, half the time, waiting to rack up another assist. Instead, 'Toine be like KG's second voice of enthusiasm but with a bit more humor than just pure intense fire and rage. The C's would have regular ball movement and then, we wouldn't have had so many pointless losses, saving ourselves for only the playoffs. I believe that we would have been a 55-58 win squad in 2010 and may have even had home court, over the Lakers.

And then, as for Playoff Rondo, the C's would not have dependent upon his Dream Shake floating antics, to have advanced. There were enough ways for the C's to put points on the boards.

Since Walker was a point forward, his job would not be to guard quicker guards. I'd say that Tony Allen, Ray Allen, and PP were equipped for that role. Walker's job would be to create ball movement, find mismatches to help in scoring, while assisting on taking the defense pressures off the Big 3, as he'd also be a scoring threat at any time.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2015, 08:27:51 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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In terms of defense, you talk about Rondo, as if he's Michael Cooper or Sydney Moncrief reincarnated. He wasn't among the greatest defenders of all time.

For the most part, many C's players played defense, up to their own individual abilities. It's the coaches job, to help in making adjustments, between various matchups.

Tony Allen was a great one-on-one defender, though a limited offensive player. You could then reverse those parameters on Antoine. 'Tione could score or pass, while Allen held off another parameter player.

Umm, that's not what I meant at all.  I was merely offering up his accomplishments in comparison to Antoine's and remembering what he did for those KG teams, defensively.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2015, 08:34:34 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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My complaint about the KG era was that aside from '08 & '09, many of our regular season outings were not so spectacular, given the talent on the roster. Sure, the whole notion of 'Sheed taking a vacation during '10 was evident, however, in addition to that, teams would play us, 5 on 4. It was clear that as time went by, more and more opponents were challenging Rondo to take the open shot.

I suspect that if there were a 23 year old Walker on the KG squad, an opponent would always play 5 on 5, daily, because if someone sagged off Antoine, he would set his feet correctly and take a 50 FG% jumpshot, since he could in fact, shoot the ball (given enough time to get setup), despite his general poor shot selection in other areas of the game.

And unlike Rondo, he wouldn't grow bored during the regular season and run around dribbling the clock down, half the time, waiting to rack up another assist. Instead, 'Toine be like KG's second voice of enthusiasm but with a bit more humor than just pure intense fire and rage. The C's would have regular ball movement and then, we wouldn't have had so many pointless losses, saving ourselves for only the playoffs. I believe that we would have been a 55-58 win squad in 2010 and may have even had home court, over the Lakers.

And then, as for Playoff Rondo, the C's would not have dependent upon his Dream Shake floating antics, to have advanced. There were enough ways for the C's to put points on the boards.

Since Walker was a point forward, his job would not be to guard quicker guards. I'd say that Tony Allen, Ray Allen, and PP were equipped for that role. Walker's job would be to create ball movement, find mismatches to help in scoring, while assisting on taking the defense pressures off the Big 3, as he'd also be a scoring threat at any time.

At times, I agree, it did seem like we were playing 4 on 5, but that was because of Perk - not Rondo.  I also didn't mind us saving ourselves for the postseason in 09-10.  Would you rather have another banner, or get the best record and be bounced in the second round because of injuries?  It was definitely the right approach, imo, especially with KG coming back from surgery, and I wish that we had implemented the same strategy during the following year, where, again, we aimed for homecourt, had a better record than the year before, and got bounced in the second round, largely because Rondo got hurt and we had no depth, really, but also because the Big 3 had played too many minutes that year, imo.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2015, 08:59:03 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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I think we have more rotational options with a young Antoine, since he can play both the 4 and the 3.

There could be frontlines of PP, KG, and AW, with RA/TA/House/etc in the backcourt. Pierce can go back/forth between being upfront and back, given the fact that we have two playmakers, KG and Walker on court.

In this case, Daniels would actually be a good 8/9th man fit, because he'd have fewer minutes, and not always have to fill-in for Pierce's minutes up front.

In contrast, I saw Rondo as extremely one dimensional and not able to get along with his teammates. If Ray's running around all day to break free, Walker would simply shoot the ball instead of sitting around, awaiting for the assist. Then, next time around, they may switch the better defender onto Walker, which could then open up Ray for a better look. As for Perks, if he's circa 8 feet of the basket, it's not like opponents are simply going to leave him alone because that's Perk's comfort scoring zone. KG had found him numerous times in those situations and opponents know of it.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2015, 09:06:47 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I'm definitely an Antoine guy, myself. His energy, leadership, and all-around game were so needed for those Celtics teams. Many remember him as just a chucker, but (as Roy pointed out), much of that may have been due to O'Brien's system - which worked! The third best player on those teams was past-his-prime Kenny Anderson. I know that Pierce ultimately grew up and emerged as the stalwart star, but without Antoine there to lead the way, the Celtics would have been mid-lottery each year, if they were lucky.

I am a huge huge Rondo fan and even mentioned in LarBrd33's thread that I would be happy to have him back if a Smart/Thomas trade went down, but he was also very lucky being able to grow with three hall of famers around him. I also think his fit is in a very defined system, where Antoine seems to be able to adapt to his surroundings (see third best player on championship Heat team). Both are exceptional players with odd flaws, but Antoine will always mean more to me.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2015, 09:09:28 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I'll look back favorably on BOTH players, forever.

'Toine had the impossible task of trying to follow in Larry's footsteps...only a few years removed from the tragedies of Reggie and Len. But he did well. Loved how he competed.

Rondo did not seem to come into his own until the arrival of KG and Ray. I could not possibly imagine trying to keep FOUR DIVAS happy - the Big Three AND a former PG turned coach in Doc Rivers.

But he did well, too - and he competed. Boy did he. Body and spirit.

Both are True Celtics, to me and always will be. While they wore the Green and were both surrounded by competitive teammates, they brought back memories of my youth in the 80's - while Larry, Chief and McHale competed.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2015, 09:18:40 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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I'm definitely an Antoine guy, myself. His energy, leadership, and all-around game were so needed for those Celtics teams. Many remember him as just a chucker, but (as Roy pointed out), much of that may have been due to O'Brien's system - which worked! The third best player on those teams was past-his-prime Kenny Anderson. I know that Pierce ultimately grew up and emerged as the stalwart star, but without Antoine there to lead the way, the Celtics would have been mid-lottery each year, if they were lucky.

I am a huge huge Rondo fan and even mentioned in LarBrd33's thread that I would be happy to have him back if a Smart/Thomas trade went down, but he was also very lucky being able to grow with three hall of famers around him. I also think his fit is in a very defined system, where Antoine seems to be able to adapt to his surroundings (see third best player on championship Heat team). Both are exceptional players with odd flaws, but Antoine will always mean more to me.

In terms of leadership, in the hypothetical KG era, we'd have two leaders, KG would play the bad cop, while Walker plays the good cop. And thus, instead of situations where KG chews out BBD and makes him sulk for the remainder of the game, Walker can make a few jokes, lighten up the situation, and at the same time, give KG's words their importance. Phrases like, "Kevin only wants the best. Can fault him for flaring up at times."

And in that setup, Pierce can go back to what he's good at, and that's being the silent assassin (but in a more triple-double manner), while KG/AW handle the general population control.


Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2015, 09:32:30 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I'll look back favorably on BOTH players, forever.

'Toine had the impossible task of trying to follow in Larry's footsteps...only a few years removed from the tragedies of Reggie and Len. But he did well. Loved how he competed.

Rondo did not seem to come into his own until the arrival of KG and Ray. I could not possibly imagine trying to keep FOUR DIVAS happy - the Big Three AND a former PG turned coach in Doc Rivers.

But he did well, too - and he competed. Boy did he. Body and spirit.

Both are True Celtics, to me and always will be. While they wore the Green and were both surrounded by competitive teammates, they brought back memories of my youth in the 80's - while Larry, Chief and McHale competed.

Rondo's rookie year was 06-07, so he obviously had yet to come into his own, lol ;D.  He did show his ability from that first preseason game where he was making ridiculous passes, though, and Tommy was noticeably impressed, as was I.  It was definitely a woah type of moment.  I also don't completely understand the notion that he didn't 'bring it' every night.  First of all, the guy was, at minimum, the 4th option on offense, so he was hardly a focal point, and his primary job, or at least that's how I saw it, was to set up the Big 3 and keep them happy and engaged, offensively, so it was quite a tightrope to walk, and I thought that Rondo did that better than anyone else could have.  At times, it really seemed like he held back on offense in order to get guys better shots, but whenever we were down, he'd suddenly become unstoppable and carry us, if need be, like when he severely outplayed Rose in that 2009 series.  I know that he has his flaws, but I honestly don't care, lol ;D, especially not after all I've seen him do.  Even this year, when we played the Cavs at home, he was the best player on a court with Lebron, Kyrie, and Love, leading our rag-tag group to an incredible 18 point lead over Cleveland, iirc.  Sure, he fumbled the last shot, but there's no way that our jv team should have even been in a game against Lebron, imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqCB6NyrzNo

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2015, 09:46:21 PM »

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Quote from: GreenFaith1819 link=topic=77789.msg1872828#msg1872828
  I could not possibly imagine trying to keep FOUR DIVAS happy - the Big Three AND a former PG turned coach in Doc Rivers.

I'd say that they were really two Divas, KG for his sort of psychotic intensity and Rivers, for wanting to be a media darling. Pierce and Allen were simply professionals, who did their jobs.


Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2015, 10:08:53 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I don't have an answer to who was the better or more productive player but I want to relay one Antoine story that I always respected him for.  There was a period after Pierce came along where there was speculation in the press about whether is was Antoine's team or Pierce's team.

This hadn't been going on all that long when Antoine made a statement that in his opinion it was Pierce's team and that he thought that Pierce was a better player.  That stopped the "controversy" in its tracks.

This has nothing to do with Rondo but is something I always respected Antoine for.

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2015, 10:09:23 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Quote from: GreenFaith1819 link=topic=77789.msg1872828#msg1872828
  I could not possibly imagine trying to keep FOUR DIVAS happy - the Big Three AND a former PG turned coach in Doc Rivers.

I'd say that they were really two Divas, KG for his sort of psychotic intensity and Rivers, for wanting to be a media darling. Pierce and Allen were simply professionals, who did their jobs.

You're not going to put Ray Allen in the diva category, lol? ;D Really? ::)

Re: On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2015, 10:15:37 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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I don't have an answer to who was the better or more productive player but I want to relay one Antoine story that I always respected him for.  There was a period after Pierce came along where there was speculation in the press about whether is was Antoine's team or Pierce's team.

This hadn't been going on all that long when Antoine made a statement that in his opinion it was Pierce's team and that he thought that Pierce was a better player.  That stopped the "controversy" in its tracks.

This has nothing to do with Rondo but is something I always respected Antoine for.

This is also a good depiction of why I'd thought that his younger version, would have been a perfect fit on the KG lead C's. He's a realist, with a sense of humor and self-deprecatory motions. It's obvious that the moment his younger self joins the Big Three, that he'd realize that he wasn't the expected franchise player. In a sense, he's the ultimate jack of all trades, master of none, and he can revel in it. Thus, as point forward, general mixer, but one who plays his heart out, the Big Three era would have been greater than it was.