Author Topic: Was this playoff appearance worth it?  (Read 26034 times)

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Re: Was this playoff appearance worth it?
« Reply #180 on: April 24, 2015, 07:04:38 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I would agree with absolutely also. I will admit I am going to be disappointed if we don't win one game. We really could have stolen game two if we could have hit a few more shots or yesterday if we didn't have to different terrible stretches. It may seem stupid to some but 1 game would be really nice for me personally. I will add that I will expect MUCH more next year and think it will happen.

Re: Was this playoff appearance worth it?
« Reply #181 on: April 24, 2015, 07:08:20 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Your assumption that pick 10 is a far more valuable asset than pick 16 is just ridiculous.  It is six picks better sure, but I would say the chances of getting a star at 10 or 16 is just about the same, slim.
In terms of the difference in 10 to 16 in terms of getting a star, historically speaking it is about a coin flip as to which spot is more likely to yield a star.

However, the difference in value for trading up is great. It is much easier to trade up to the 6th pick using the 10th pick than the 16th pick. If the end goal is to trade up as high as you can then the 10th pick is a lot more valuable.

That isn't to say I would undo the deals we made to get us to the playoffs in order to get the 10th pick.

In the end if we see someone who we think can be a star in the 6-10 range then we have more than enough assets to get up there.
The thing is, anyone available at 16 was also available at 10, so even in the years where 16 has yielded a better player than 10, you still could have had that player at 10 if you were a better drafter.  The difference between 10 and 16 is the 6 players taken from 10-15 every single year, which you will never be able to draft at 16, and which give you a much higher likelihood of getting an impact player.

EDIT: 2011 is a good example of this.  the 10th pick was Jimmer Fredette. The 16th pick was Nikola Vucevic.  11 was Klay Thompson.  12-15 were Alec Burks, the Morris twins, and Kawhi Leonard.  Thus if the Kings weren't idiots, they would have had their pick of 3 all star level players in Leonard, Thompson, and Vucevic or 3 solid rotational players in Burks and the Morris brothers, but instead they took Fredette.  That is the advantage of 10 vs. 16.  And while 2011 was a bit rare with the shear quality of player still on the board at 10, every year there are a lot more quality players available at 10 than 16.

And I could point to Vucevic at 16, Iman Shumpert at 17, Tobias Harris at 19, Montiejunas at 20, Farried at 22, Mirotic at 23, Reggie Jackson at 24, Cory Joseph at 29, and Jimmy Butler at 30, Chandler Parsons at 38, and Isaiah Thomas at 60 as still available.  If we'd have pulled Vucevic, Chandler Parsons, and Isaiah Thomas out of that draft, could anyone be complaining?  We'd probably be a third seed this year.

We could have done awesome with picks 16 and later, we could have drafted Fredette with the 10th pick.  It isn't the position you draft, it is invariably who you take.

I suspect 2012 is more the usual than 2011 though.  Take a look at that draft and tell me 10 and 16 made a huge difference.  Picks 10-16 are all pretty unremarkable.


Nice well written ! TP . .......there are lots of good players taken past the 10 th or so that have been important in the league ..  Paul .Milsap is another late pic.   

WHO you pic is more important than where.  Noel had ACL,   Parker had an ACL , Randle Broken bone,  Exum seems very poor ,  lots of top tens come up poorly or with issues .

A lot is pure luck ,   So I'm not about sitting around waiting for the next MJ or LeBron to fall into the Celtics lap .   I want to see the team play as good , who ever they are , and see them in the playoffs .

Eventually , if the same teams keep refusing to play basketball ....be a pro team ......I see the NBA having to address tanking of NBA .....it's a bad situation ......shame that it can't work like it was meant to, a few bad apples spoiling it for everybody else .   

Re: Was this playoff appearance worth it?
« Reply #182 on: April 24, 2015, 07:12:04 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I said 15-25 was our range prior to making any moves.   15 was the worst-case scenario.  We ended up flipping half our roster and getting rid of cancers like Rondo who were holding us back.  My pre-season expectations have been irrelevant for a long time.

I just said I see this team as a 32-45 win team right now.   If we go and sign LeBron James this summer, are you going to claim I predicted 32 wins?

At the time Rondo was traded, they were 9-14.  So you were way off on your lower estimate, and that was a 32 win pace, so you were pretty much way off on your upper estimate.

You were wrong.
I was right.  In the alt universe where Rondo stayed, he gets frustrated with the losing record, he and Stevens have a public blow-out, Bradley gets injured playing along-side him, Rondo is sent home indefinitely to finish out his contract, Marcus Thornton and Evan Turner finish the season starting at PG/SG, Smart struggles in spot-minutes and is relegated to the d-league, the players lose trust in Stevens and start focusing on stats, Jeff Green shoots 34% for the season, we go on a 50 game losing streak, Stevens returns to College, and we finish with 15-25 wins.   Fact.  Multi-verse.  Boom.

In the alt universe where you stay, you are right.
In that alt universe, I get bored with the team's tanking mid-season, skip one of the games to see "Paddington" at the movie theater with my girlfriend, catch chickenpox from the child sitting behind me kicking my chair throughout the entire movie, realize that I somehow lived my entire life without ever getting chickenpox, and have an aggressive reaction forcing me to have all my limbs amputated.    So it's potentially the darkest of timelines depending on how you look at.  On one hand, I'm forced to live as an amputee and the Celtics finish with 15-25 wins.  On the other hand, I'm no longer capable of typing annoying forum posts.   Before you decide on which is best, I should mention that in the alt universe, the Celtics land Karl Townes in the draft, he develops into a megastar with the mentorship of Bill Russell, and Boston goes on to have a decade of dominance under Coach Ainge.  Limbless LarBrd33 approves.

Re: Was this playoff appearance worth it?
« Reply #183 on: April 24, 2015, 07:35:14 PM »

Offline flybono

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I think Smart and Crowder has proven he can be part of the future .

We have also seen that we need a huge upgrade at both big men positions , and need a PG with size who can handle and shoot(Dragic would be nice)

Let Bass and Datome walk , unless they come back real cheap, same with Jerebko

pg: Need upgrade            / Thomas
SG: Smart                      / Bradley
SF: Crowder(for now)     / Turner
PF: Need upgrade            / KO or Sully
 C: Need upgrade            / Zeller




Right on!   
The playoffs might have left us exposed, but Ainge and Ownership should have a great read on what the Future needs..

Re: Was this playoff appearance worth it?
« Reply #184 on: April 24, 2015, 08:49:02 PM »

Offline colincb

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I think Smart and Crowder has proven he can be part of the future .

We have also seen that we need a huge upgrade at both big men positions , and need a PG with size who can handle and shoot(Dragic would be nice)

Let Bass and Datome walk , unless they come back real cheap, same with Jerebko

pg: Need upgrade            / Thomas
SG: Smart                      / Bradley
SF: Crowder(for now)     / Turner
PF: Need upgrade            / KO or Sully
 C: Need upgrade            / Zeller




Right on!   
The playoffs might have left us exposed, but Ainge and Ownership should have a great read on what the Future needs..

Exactly. You'll never know what you have until the playoffs when the opposition exposes your team's weaknesses rather than running a generic offense and defense for an 82 game season.

Re: Was this playoff appearance worth it?
« Reply #185 on: April 24, 2015, 09:28:41 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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They have shown many of our Owners/Front Office guys sitting near the action--while watching us getting owned...These faces have not looked happy---I certainly hope they take some serious action this off-season....Bringing back Vitor is NOT the answer.
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: Was this playoff appearance worth it?
« Reply #186 on: April 25, 2015, 02:26:42 AM »

Offline Casperian

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Always ready to tell others how they're going to feel, put up a massive wall of text, and be vague enough to always post an I told you so no matter what happens.

TP, although you forgot "selling other people's arguments as his own and taking full credit for it".

I don't see how you can objectively say that. A higher draft pick is more valuable/easier to trade up in the draft or for a star.

We can't just have the narrative that making the playoffs provides so much "experience" and we're not missing out on anything.

No. We are missing out on something, and that's a better, more tradeable/valuable pick.

Then you compare the two and decide what you think helps this team progress to becoming a championship team. A first round sweep or a chance at a top 10 pick.

But you are making the same error that you are criticizing.  You can't "objectively" claim that the lottery pick would be more valuable (either in itself or in a trade) without knowing what prospect we missed out on or what trades would be available with that pick.  These aren't things one can know "objectively," especially in late April.

Exactly.
This assumes we know beforehand which player will turn into a star. Otherwise, the difference between 10 and 16 is marginal.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 05:45:20 AM by Casperian »
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.