The ABC announcers and the Refs

[Ogaju]

YEAH, KD is really an aggressive defender just like LBJ

KD makes NBA all defense teams just like LBJ.

KD is an on the ball defender just like LBJ.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fairweatherfan]

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.

That being said he is 7th for all time FTA attempts in the playoffs at 1529,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career_p.html


and that means he takes 9.4 a game for his career in the playoffs.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_totals

Only averages 2.3 Fouls a game in the playoffs.   This also does not account for all the walks, goal tending pin it to backboard blocks they let him alone do. He gets away with murder on the court, and if you look at him cross it is a foul.

He gets fouled more than he fouls for sure, that's true of just about every elite player in any era.  But everyone gets away with traveling in the NBA, and pinning it to the backboard is legal in the NBA, so I'm not sure what that's about.

Again, I think LeBron got a lot of bad calls last game, and stars generally do get the benefit of the doubt from refs, I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

[/b]

But isn't the conspiracy real if we can all see it happening during the game and there is stats to back it up?

Guys it is not a conspiracy there is plenty of data to back it up going back at least 5 years. Unfortunately the best analysis comparing him to other stars was done in 2010 as many of the more recent articles have just focused on his streaks of low fouls, or not fouling out without putting them in a historical content.

http://www.emptythebench.com/2010/01/26/lebron-james-fouls/
 From 2010 (Note this also shows historical numbers from Jordan, Magic and Kobe and they all fouled at much higher rates than LBJ) 

"For starters, we should know how often fouls are being called around the league so we can see if there really is a big difference with LeBron. Through January 22, James played 1702 minutes and committed 77 fouls, good for one foul every 22.1 minutes of court time.

Everyone else in the NBA logged 298,868 minutes and committed 26,473 fouls, good for one every 11.3 minutes. Comparatively, James is half as likely to be called for a foul than the other 300-odd players as a whole. Without even picking up a calculator, it looks like most NBAers who would play 38.7 minutes a game, like James does, would accrue about 3.5 fouls per (remember that his 1.8 is rounded up)."

From 2012

After he fouled out in 2012 it was noted it was just the 5th time he had fouled out in 893 games, and the second time in a playoff game (unfortunately this was not put in a historical context)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2013/05/29/lebron-james-fouls-out-miami-heat-vs-indiana-pacers-game-4-eastern-conference-finals/2368449/

When he went 300 minutes of court time with two fouls
http://deadspin.com/5970837/lebron-james-has-committed-two-fouls-in-his-last-299-minutes-of-court-time

For his entire career Tayshaun Prince has averaged 1 foul per 25.3 minutes, compared to LeBron's career rate of 1 foul per 21 minutes.  Do you believe there's an even bigger conspiracy to protect Tayshaun Prince from foul calls?  If not, why not, when the "evidence" is even stronger for him?

Context matters - LeBron's foul rate is low, but it hasn't even been the lowest at his position, let alone some incredible historical anomaly.

Tayshaun Prince doesn't routinely lower his shoulder into his defender and get away with it.

Odd,  a minute ago you were arguing LeBron was getting away with fouls on defense.  Kind of an abrupt shift there.

Also, Wilt Chamberlain never fouled out of a game at any level, and he was a center, a more foul-prone position, AND played about 6 mpg more than LeBron.  He also averaged 1 foul every 23.1 minutes, again a lower rate than LeBron.  Bigger ref conspiracy, or something else?  If something else, same question as with Prince - the "evidence" is much more in his favor than LeBron's, so why the different explanation?  Could it be that the idea of massive favoritism comes first, and the "evidence" is just tacked on afterward for show?

Derrick Rose is 1 foul per just under 25 minutes in his career.  Jimmy Butler about 1 foul in 23 minutes.  Luol Deng at 1 per 20.6 minutes.  Tony Parker is about 1 in 19 minutes.

Lots of players have great control and don't commit a lot of fouls.

Try some power forwards that play aggressively on offense and defense and you might have something... these other examples are pretty poor. If you read the link the I posted, when he is compared to other players that play the same position and have a high offensive utilization his stats are unprecedented. Don't make such lazy comparisons, especially when someone else (the writer) has done a much deeper analysis than you have.

why are we looking at PF's?  James is a SF.  What does high offense have to do with fouls?  The vast majority of fouls occur on the defensive side of the floor, not offensive.  And a guy like Rose is a very high usage offensive player with a fairly similar offensive game to James and at a position where his opponent more than likely has the ball in his hand a lot more than James (similar to Parker as well).  Deng and Prince are SF's like James.  It seems to me you were called on your crap and rather than acknowledge your mistake are trying to shift the focus on others.  Just admit you were wrong and move on.

And just because I'm bored try this one on for size. James has the 4th highest PPG in NBA history.  The man in 5th is also a SF.  He commits 1 foul every 20.1 minutes.  Not that much different than James.  Thus not so unprecedented.

You think I wrote the statistical analysis of his fouls? The article is not by me, sorry if you were confused on that. Lebron has played a lot of games at power forward in his career. Lebron weighs 70 more pounds than some of the guys you are comparing him to and plays a lot more physical brand of basketball. You don't think he is in a position to pick up more fouls going for rebounds against power forwards and centers or defending them on the block? Most fouls are called on the block. Parker, Rose and Nash are not defending in the paint very frequently.

I would also just hope you could apply some common sense here. Lebron plays a lot more physical brand of basketball than Tayshaun Prince. He soars in to try and get blocks on fast breaks, he drives to the basket where he is occasionally (not frequently enough) called for offensive fouls. He matches up on centers on and forwards. Prince does none of this. If you don't understand why this is an awful comparison I don't think we can really even bother to continue this conversation.

I am not wrong on any of the articles I have posted, in fact they are not my work, stats or research at all. Some of your comparisons are on the other hand, pretty silly in my opinion to say with a straight face. I mean Prince and Parker don't get called for fouls? seriously?

It seems to me you were called on your crap and rather than acknowledge your mistake are trying to shift the focus on others.  Just admit you were wrong and move on.

Every guy listed would produce similar statistical results as the analysis you posted fyi. 

Again, LeBron absolutely has an unusually low foul rate, but it's not as extraordinary as your author tries to imply, because he's cherry-picking his comparisons (and repeatedly shifting his target as the article proceeds, which I'd wager is not a coincidence). 

Wilt for example had all the characteristics you say set LeBron apart, most to an even greater degree, but committed fewer fouls and literally never fouled out.  The p-value on that would be several degrees of magnitude lower than LeBron's. 

[celticsclay]

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.

That being said he is 7th for all time FTA attempts in the playoffs at 1529,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career_p.html


and that means he takes 9.4 a game for his career in the playoffs.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_totals

Only averages 2.3 Fouls a game in the playoffs.   This also does not account for all the walks, goal tending pin it to backboard blocks they let him alone do. He gets away with murder on the court, and if you look at him cross it is a foul.

He gets fouled more than he fouls for sure, that's true of just about every elite player in any era.  But everyone gets away with traveling in the NBA, and pinning it to the backboard is legal in the NBA, so I'm not sure what that's about.

Again, I think LeBron got a lot of bad calls last game, and stars generally do get the benefit of the doubt from refs, I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

[/b]

But isn't the conspiracy real if we can all see it happening during the game and there is stats to back it up?

Guys it is not a conspiracy there is plenty of data to back it up going back at least 5 years. Unfortunately the best analysis comparing him to other stars was done in 2010 as many of the more recent articles have just focused on his streaks of low fouls, or not fouling out without putting them in a historical content.

http://www.emptythebench.com/2010/01/26/lebron-james-fouls/
 From 2010 (Note this also shows historical numbers from Jordan, Magic and Kobe and they all fouled at much higher rates than LBJ) 

"For starters, we should know how often fouls are being called around the league so we can see if there really is a big difference with LeBron. Through January 22, James played 1702 minutes and committed 77 fouls, good for one foul every 22.1 minutes of court time.

Everyone else in the NBA logged 298,868 minutes and committed 26,473 fouls, good for one every 11.3 minutes. Comparatively, James is half as likely to be called for a foul than the other 300-odd players as a whole. Without even picking up a calculator, it looks like most NBAers who would play 38.7 minutes a game, like James does, would accrue about 3.5 fouls per (remember that his 1.8 is rounded up)."

From 2012

After he fouled out in 2012 it was noted it was just the 5th time he had fouled out in 893 games, and the second time in a playoff game (unfortunately this was not put in a historical context)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2013/05/29/lebron-james-fouls-out-miami-heat-vs-indiana-pacers-game-4-eastern-conference-finals/2368449/

When he went 300 minutes of court time with two fouls
http://deadspin.com/5970837/lebron-james-has-committed-two-fouls-in-his-last-299-minutes-of-court-time

For his entire career Tayshaun Prince has averaged 1 foul per 25.3 minutes, compared to LeBron's career rate of 1 foul per 21 minutes.  Do you believe there's an even bigger conspiracy to protect Tayshaun Prince from foul calls?  If not, why not, when the "evidence" is even stronger for him?

Context matters - LeBron's foul rate is low, but it hasn't even been the lowest at his position, let alone some incredible historical anomaly.

Tayshaun Prince doesn't routinely lower his shoulder into his defender and get away with it.

Odd,  a minute ago you were arguing LeBron was getting away with fouls on defense.  Kind of an abrupt shift there.

Also, Wilt Chamberlain never fouled out of a game at any level, and he was a center, a more foul-prone position, AND played about 6 mpg more than LeBron.  He also averaged 1 foul every 23.1 minutes, again a lower rate than LeBron.  Bigger ref conspiracy, or something else?  If something else, same question as with Prince - the "evidence" is much more in his favor than LeBron's, so why the different explanation?  Could it be that the idea of massive favoritism comes first, and the "evidence" is just tacked on afterward for show?

Derrick Rose is 1 foul per just under 25 minutes in his career.  Jimmy Butler about 1 foul in 23 minutes.  Luol Deng at 1 per 20.6 minutes.  Tony Parker is about 1 in 19 minutes.

Lots of players have great control and don't commit a lot of fouls.

Try some power forwards that play aggressively on offense and defense and you might have something... these other examples are pretty poor. If you read the link the I posted, when he is compared to other players that play the same position and have a high offensive utilization his stats are unprecedented. Don't make such lazy comparisons, especially when someone else (the writer) has done a much deeper analysis than you have.

why are we looking at PF's?  James is a SF.  What does high offense have to do with fouls?  The vast majority of fouls occur on the defensive side of the floor, not offensive.  And a guy like Rose is a very high usage offensive player with a fairly similar offensive game to James and at a position where his opponent more than likely has the ball in his hand a lot more than James (similar to Parker as well).  Deng and Prince are SF's like James.  It seems to me you were called on your crap and rather than acknowledge your mistake are trying to shift the focus on others.  Just admit you were wrong and move on.

And just because I'm bored try this one on for size. James has the 4th highest PPG in NBA history.  The man in 5th is also a SF.  He commits 1 foul every 20.1 minutes.  Not that much different than James.  Thus not so unprecedented.

You think I wrote the statistical analysis of his fouls? The article is not by me, sorry if you were confused on that. Lebron has played a lot of games at power forward in his career. Lebron weighs 70 more pounds than some of the guys you are comparing him to and plays a lot more physical brand of basketball. You don't think he is in a position to pick up more fouls going for rebounds against power forwards and centers or defending them on the block? Most fouls are called on the block. Parker, Rose and Nash are not defending in the paint very frequently.

I would also just hope you could apply some common sense here. Lebron plays a lot more physical brand of basketball than Tayshaun Prince. He soars in to try and get blocks on fast breaks, he drives to the basket where he is occasionally (not frequently enough) called for offensive fouls. He matches up on centers on and forwards. Prince does none of this. If you don't understand why this is an awful comparison I don't think we can really even bother to continue this conversation.

I am not wrong on any of the articles I have posted, in fact they are not my work, stats or research at all. Some of your comparisons are on the other hand, pretty silly in my opinion to say with a straight face. I mean Prince and Parker don't get called for fouls? seriously?

It seems to me you were called on your crap and rather than acknowledge your mistake are trying to shift the focus on others.  Just admit you were wrong and move on.

Every guy listed would produce similar statistical results as the analysis you posted fyi. 

Again, LeBron absolutely has an unusually low foul rate, but it's not as extraordinary as your author tries to imply, because he's cherry-picking his comparisons (and repeatedly shifting his target as the article proceeds, which I'd wager is not a coincidence). 

Wilt for example had all the characteristics you say set LeBron apart, most to an even greater degree, but committed fewer fouls and literally never fouled out.  The p-value on that would be several degrees of magnitude lower than LeBron's.

I completely agree with you about Wilt. It is before my time and there is not a lot of footage , advanced statistics etc available for of a lot of his games so it is harder to discuss.

I am not sure what you mean by the first part. Are we in agreement that he has a too few fouls called on him and there are not as many players that play as physical a brand as he does with the same kind of fouling rate? If we can at least compare apples to apples and look at foul rates of players that regularly defend post players and play in the paint I think the data really suggests his foul rates are unusually low. I would believe there were other players besides wilt with this anomoly I just haven't found many. 

We can have a good debate about that, especially if there is data that doesn't agree with that point. However, if people are going to try and him compare his foul rates to diminutive point guards or players that almost never play in the post (Like KD) then that kind of stretches the boundaries of reasonable conversation.

[fairweatherfan]

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.

That being said he is 7th for all time FTA attempts in the playoffs at 1529,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career_p.html


and that means he takes 9.4 a game for his career in the playoffs.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_totals

Only averages 2.3 Fouls a game in the playoffs.   This also does not account for all the walks, goal tending pin it to backboard blocks they let him alone do. He gets away with murder on the court, and if you look at him cross it is a foul.

He gets fouled more than he fouls for sure, that's true of just about every elite player in any era.  But everyone gets away with traveling in the NBA, and pinning it to the backboard is legal in the NBA, so I'm not sure what that's about.

Again, I think LeBron got a lot of bad calls last game, and stars generally do get the benefit of the doubt from refs, I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

[/b]

But isn't the conspiracy real if we can all see it happening during the game and there is stats to back it up?

Guys it is not a conspiracy there is plenty of data to back it up going back at least 5 years. Unfortunately the best analysis comparing him to other stars was done in 2010 as many of the more recent articles have just focused on his streaks of low fouls, or not fouling out without putting them in a historical content.

http://www.emptythebench.com/2010/01/26/lebron-james-fouls/
 From 2010 (Note this also shows historical numbers from Jordan, Magic and Kobe and they all fouled at much higher rates than LBJ) 

"For starters, we should know how often fouls are being called around the league so we can see if there really is a big difference with LeBron. Through January 22, James played 1702 minutes and committed 77 fouls, good for one foul every 22.1 minutes of court time.

Everyone else in the NBA logged 298,868 minutes and committed 26,473 fouls, good for one every 11.3 minutes. Comparatively, James is half as likely to be called for a foul than the other 300-odd players as a whole. Without even picking up a calculator, it looks like most NBAers who would play 38.7 minutes a game, like James does, would accrue about 3.5 fouls per (remember that his 1.8 is rounded up)."

From 2012

After he fouled out in 2012 it was noted it was just the 5th time he had fouled out in 893 games, and the second time in a playoff game (unfortunately this was not put in a historical context)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2013/05/29/lebron-james-fouls-out-miami-heat-vs-indiana-pacers-game-4-eastern-conference-finals/2368449/

When he went 300 minutes of court time with two fouls
http://deadspin.com/5970837/lebron-james-has-committed-two-fouls-in-his-last-299-minutes-of-court-time

For his entire career Tayshaun Prince has averaged 1 foul per 25.3 minutes, compared to LeBron's career rate of 1 foul per 21 minutes.  Do you believe there's an even bigger conspiracy to protect Tayshaun Prince from foul calls?  If not, why not, when the "evidence" is even stronger for him?

Context matters - LeBron's foul rate is low, but it hasn't even been the lowest at his position, let alone some incredible historical anomaly.

Tayshaun Prince doesn't routinely lower his shoulder into his defender and get away with it.

Odd,  a minute ago you were arguing LeBron was getting away with fouls on defense.  Kind of an abrupt shift there.

Also, Wilt Chamberlain never fouled out of a game at any level, and he was a center, a more foul-prone position, AND played about 6 mpg more than LeBron.  He also averaged 1 foul every 23.1 minutes, again a lower rate than LeBron.  Bigger ref conspiracy, or something else?  If something else, same question as with Prince - the "evidence" is much more in his favor than LeBron's, so why the different explanation?  Could it be that the idea of massive favoritism comes first, and the "evidence" is just tacked on afterward for show?

Derrick Rose is 1 foul per just under 25 minutes in his career.  Jimmy Butler about 1 foul in 23 minutes.  Luol Deng at 1 per 20.6 minutes.  Tony Parker is about 1 in 19 minutes.

Lots of players have great control and don't commit a lot of fouls.

Try some power forwards that play aggressively on offense and defense and you might have something... these other examples are pretty poor. If you read the link the I posted, when he is compared to other players that play the same position and have a high offensive utilization his stats are unprecedented. Don't make such lazy comparisons, especially when someone else (the writer) has done a much deeper analysis than you have.

why are we looking at PF's?  James is a SF.  What does high offense have to do with fouls?  The vast majority of fouls occur on the defensive side of the floor, not offensive.  And a guy like Rose is a very high usage offensive player with a fairly similar offensive game to James and at a position where his opponent more than likely has the ball in his hand a lot more than James (similar to Parker as well).  Deng and Prince are SF's like James.  It seems to me you were called on your crap and rather than acknowledge your mistake are trying to shift the focus on others.  Just admit you were wrong and move on.

And just because I'm bored try this one on for size. James has the 4th highest PPG in NBA history.  The man in 5th is also a SF.  He commits 1 foul every 20.1 minutes.  Not that much different than James.  Thus not so unprecedented.

You think I wrote the statistical analysis of his fouls? The article is not by me, sorry if you were confused on that. Lebron has played a lot of games at power forward in his career. Lebron weighs 70 more pounds than some of the guys you are comparing him to and plays a lot more physical brand of basketball. You don't think he is in a position to pick up more fouls going for rebounds against power forwards and centers or defending them on the block? Most fouls are called on the block. Parker, Rose and Nash are not defending in the paint very frequently.

I would also just hope you could apply some common sense here. Lebron plays a lot more physical brand of basketball than Tayshaun Prince. He soars in to try and get blocks on fast breaks, he drives to the basket where he is occasionally (not frequently enough) called for offensive fouls. He matches up on centers on and forwards. Prince does none of this. If you don't understand why this is an awful comparison I don't think we can really even bother to continue this conversation.

I am not wrong on any of the articles I have posted, in fact they are not my work, stats or research at all. Some of your comparisons are on the other hand, pretty silly in my opinion to say with a straight face. I mean Prince and Parker don't get called for fouls? seriously?

It seems to me you were called on your crap and rather than acknowledge your mistake are trying to shift the focus on others.  Just admit you were wrong and move on.

Every guy listed would produce similar statistical results as the analysis you posted fyi. 

Again, LeBron absolutely has an unusually low foul rate, but it's not as extraordinary as your author tries to imply, because he's cherry-picking his comparisons (and repeatedly shifting his target as the article proceeds, which I'd wager is not a coincidence). 

Wilt for example had all the characteristics you say set LeBron apart, most to an even greater degree, but committed fewer fouls and literally never fouled out.  The p-value on that would be several degrees of magnitude lower than LeBron's.

I completely agree with you about Wilt. It is before my time and there is not a lot of footage , advanced statistics etc available for of a lot of his games so it is harder to discuss.

I am not sure what you mean by the first part. Are we in agreement that he has a too few fouls called on him and there are not as many players that play as physical a brand as he does with the same kind of fouling rate? If we can at least compare apples to apples and look at foul rates of players that regularly defend post players and play in the paint I think the data really suggests his foul rates are unusually low. I would believe there were other players besides wilt with this anomoly I just haven't found many. 

We can have a good debate about that, especially if there is data that doesn't agree with that point. However, if people are going to try and him compare his foul rates to diminutive point guards or players that almost never play in the post (Like KD) then that kind of stretches the boundaries of reasonable conversation.

I don't agree that LeBron's foul rate indicates a deliberate bias - I definitely think superstars get the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think it's unique to him.  I'd also argue that he doesn't defend in the post as much as you think - he doesn't always guard 4s when he plays 4, and in the modern league 4s are often playing on the perimeter as well, especially if the opposing coach is trying to match up with LeBron's team.  Ideally you'd need data to support how much he defends in the paint compared to other guys, but let's be honest, we're both just killing some time here.

The problem from my perspective is that you started with one standard - LeBron has a low foul rate - and as evidence was presented that his foul rate isn't really that uncommon you've added more and more criteria that a player has to meet to be allowed to compare to him.  Problem is that of course like every superstar, there aren't too many players like LeBron, so when you keep raising the bar for what kinds of players are allowed to be compared to him, you're (in my view) implicitly showing that the evidence for the bias isn't as strong as you might hope.

Bottom line, it's fine to believe there's something uniquely stinky going on here, as opposed to just typical human error and bias, I just don't agree, and don't think you've made a very strong statistical case for it.

On the plus side, I found this neat ranker by fouls/48 min: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/fouls/sort/avg48Fouls/seasontype/2/order/false  Interestingly Anthony Davis is just a notch higher than LeBron right now.  Could be the next guy to get an analysis done on him. 

[celticsclay]

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.

That being said he is 7th for all time FTA attempts in the playoffs at 1529,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career_p.html


and that means he takes 9.4 a game for his career in the playoffs.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_totals

Only averages 2.3 Fouls a game in the playoffs.   This also does not account for all the walks, goal tending pin it to backboard blocks they let him alone do. He gets away with murder on the court, and if you look at him cross it is a foul.

He gets fouled more than he fouls for sure, that's true of just about every elite player in any era.  But everyone gets away with traveling in the NBA, and pinning it to the backboard is legal in the NBA, so I'm not sure what that's about.

Again, I think LeBron got a lot of bad calls last game, and stars generally do get the benefit of the doubt from refs, I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

[/b]

But isn't the conspiracy real if we can all see it happening during the game and there is stats to back it up?

Guys it is not a conspiracy there is plenty of data to back it up going back at least 5 years. Unfortunately the best analysis comparing him to other stars was done in 2010 as many of the more recent articles have just focused on his streaks of low fouls, or not fouling out without putting them in a historical content.

http://www.emptythebench.com/2010/01/26/lebron-james-fouls/
 From 2010 (Note this also shows historical numbers from Jordan, Magic and Kobe and they all fouled at much higher rates than LBJ) 

"For starters, we should know how often fouls are being called around the league so we can see if there really is a big difference with LeBron. Through January 22, James played 1702 minutes and committed 77 fouls, good for one foul every 22.1 minutes of court time.

Everyone else in the NBA logged 298,868 minutes and committed 26,473 fouls, good for one every 11.3 minutes. Comparatively, James is half as likely to be called for a foul than the other 300-odd players as a whole. Without even picking up a calculator, it looks like most NBAers who would play 38.7 minutes a game, like James does, would accrue about 3.5 fouls per (remember that his 1.8 is rounded up)."

From 2012

After he fouled out in 2012 it was noted it was just the 5th time he had fouled out in 893 games, and the second time in a playoff game (unfortunately this was not put in a historical context)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2013/05/29/lebron-james-fouls-out-miami-heat-vs-indiana-pacers-game-4-eastern-conference-finals/2368449/

When he went 300 minutes of court time with two fouls
http://deadspin.com/5970837/lebron-james-has-committed-two-fouls-in-his-last-299-minutes-of-court-time

For his entire career Tayshaun Prince has averaged 1 foul per 25.3 minutes, compared to LeBron's career rate of 1 foul per 21 minutes.  Do you believe there's an even bigger conspiracy to protect Tayshaun Prince from foul calls?  If not, why not, when the "evidence" is even stronger for him?

Context matters - LeBron's foul rate is low, but it hasn't even been the lowest at his position, let alone some incredible historical anomaly.

Tayshaun Prince doesn't routinely lower his shoulder into his defender and get away with it.

Odd,  a minute ago you were arguing LeBron was getting away with fouls on defense.  Kind of an abrupt shift there.

Also, Wilt Chamberlain never fouled out of a game at any level, and he was a center, a more foul-prone position, AND played about 6 mpg more than LeBron.  He also averaged 1 foul every 23.1 minutes, again a lower rate than LeBron.  Bigger ref conspiracy, or something else?  If something else, same question as with Prince - the "evidence" is much more in his favor than LeBron's, so why the different explanation?  Could it be that the idea of massive favoritism comes first, and the "evidence" is just tacked on afterward for show?

Derrick Rose is 1 foul per just under 25 minutes in his career.  Jimmy Butler about 1 foul in 23 minutes.  Luol Deng at 1 per 20.6 minutes.  Tony Parker is about 1 in 19 minutes.

Lots of players have great control and don't commit a lot of fouls.

Try some power forwards that play aggressively on offense and defense and you might have something... these other examples are pretty poor. If you read the link the I posted, when he is compared to other players that play the same position and have a high offensive utilization his stats are unprecedented. Don't make such lazy comparisons, especially when someone else (the writer) has done a much deeper analysis than you have.

why are we looking at PF's?  James is a SF.  What does high offense have to do with fouls?  The vast majority of fouls occur on the defensive side of the floor, not offensive.  And a guy like Rose is a very high usage offensive player with a fairly similar offensive game to James and at a position where his opponent more than likely has the ball in his hand a lot more than James (similar to Parker as well).  Deng and Prince are SF's like James.  It seems to me you were called on your crap and rather than acknowledge your mistake are trying to shift the focus on others.  Just admit you were wrong and move on.

And just because I'm bored try this one on for size. James has the 4th highest PPG in NBA history.  The man in 5th is also a SF.  He commits 1 foul every 20.1 minutes.  Not that much different than James.  Thus not so unprecedented.

You think I wrote the statistical analysis of his fouls? The article is not by me, sorry if you were confused on that. Lebron has played a lot of games at power forward in his career. Lebron weighs 70 more pounds than some of the guys you are comparing him to and plays a lot more physical brand of basketball. You don't think he is in a position to pick up more fouls going for rebounds against power forwards and centers or defending them on the block? Most fouls are called on the block. Parker, Rose and Nash are not defending in the paint very frequently.

I would also just hope you could apply some common sense here. Lebron plays a lot more physical brand of basketball than Tayshaun Prince. He soars in to try and get blocks on fast breaks, he drives to the basket where he is occasionally (not frequently enough) called for offensive fouls. He matches up on centers on and forwards. Prince does none of this. If you don't understand why this is an awful comparison I don't think we can really even bother to continue this conversation.

I am not wrong on any of the articles I have posted, in fact they are not my work, stats or research at all. Some of your comparisons are on the other hand, pretty silly in my opinion to say with a straight face. I mean Prince and Parker don't get called for fouls? seriously?

It seems to me you were called on your crap and rather than acknowledge your mistake are trying to shift the focus on others.  Just admit you were wrong and move on.

Every guy listed would produce similar statistical results as the analysis you posted fyi. 

Again, LeBron absolutely has an unusually low foul rate, but it's not as extraordinary as your author tries to imply, because he's cherry-picking his comparisons (and repeatedly shifting his target as the article proceeds, which I'd wager is not a coincidence). 

Wilt for example had all the characteristics you say set LeBron apart, most to an even greater degree, but committed fewer fouls and literally never fouled out.  The p-value on that would be several degrees of magnitude lower than LeBron's.

I completely agree with you about Wilt. It is before my time and there is not a lot of footage , advanced statistics etc available for of a lot of his games so it is harder to discuss.

I am not sure what you mean by the first part. Are we in agreement that he has a too few fouls called on him and there are not as many players that play as physical a brand as he does with the same kind of fouling rate? If we can at least compare apples to apples and look at foul rates of players that regularly defend post players and play in the paint I think the data really suggests his foul rates are unusually low. I would believe there were other players besides wilt with this anomoly I just haven't found many. 

We can have a good debate about that, especially if there is data that doesn't agree with that point. However, if people are going to try and him compare his foul rates to diminutive point guards or players that almost never play in the post (Like KD) then that kind of stretches the boundaries of reasonable conversation.

I don't agree that LeBron's foul rate indicates a deliberate bias - I definitely think superstars get the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think it's unique to him.  I'd also argue that he doesn't defend in the post as much as you think - he doesn't always guard 4s when he plays 4, and in the modern league 4s are often playing on the perimeter as well, especially if the opposing coach is trying to match up with LeBron's team.  Ideally you'd need data to support how much he defends in the paint compared to other guys, but let's be honest, we're both just killing some time here.

The problem from my perspective is that you started with one standard - LeBron has a low foul rate - and as evidence was presented that his foul rate isn't really that uncommon you've added more and more criteria that a player has to meet to be allowed to compare to him.  Problem is that of course like every superstar, there aren't too many players like LeBron, so when you keep raising the bar for what kinds of players are allowed to be compared to him, you're (in my view) implicitly showing that the evidence for the bias isn't as strong as you might hope.

Bottom line, it's fine to believe there's something uniquely stinky going on here, as opposed to just typical human error and bias, I just don't agree, and don't think you've made a very strong statistical case for it.

On the plus side, I found this neat ranker by fouls/48 min: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/fouls/sort/avg48Fouls/seasontype/2/order/false 

This last tool is actually pretty interesting. Of the players on here the one that would hurt my argument the most would be Bosh having a lower foul rate. Pretty much everyone else lower than Lebron is a guard or a lot more perimeter oriented then him. Anthony Davis is also very surprising with how low his foul rate is. I imagine I may have some similar feelings to Lebron if I was able to see more Pelicans games and/or the Pelicans played the Celtics more often. This would go to show you that he isn't a crazy historical anomaly, but in a very small subset of players that stands out with how few players they have called on them base on position and style of play.

With respect to how much Lebron guards in the post, I again don't have data on that so I have to go on the weakest of reasoning which is the eye test and watching him play (which I have done a lot). From my viewing Lebron does very regularly challenge shots at the rim. He goes after more fast break blocks than just about any other player I watch. These are high risk for foul plays and perhaps where he is most given the benefit of the doubt more than other players. He is also really known for his defense more than any other player really low on the foul list with the exception of Davis by a long shot. Playing good defense requires being physical and being physical is inherently going to get you a few more fouls. When I think of really elite players that are playing similar matchups to Lebron like Tony Allen and Green for Golden State they have twice the foul rate as Lebron. This suggests he should probably have at least one more foul called on him a game.

 Thanks for elevating the discourse with more than ridiculous comparisons and providing a useful tool.

EDIT: I missed that you pointed out Davis too. I think they both probably need more fouls called on them, but I have seen very few pelicans games so it is harder for me to discuss his play.

[GreenWarrior]

I don't like the "superstar treatment" by the refs. we all know it exists. but what I can't stand more than that is the superstars that abuse it.

we all know Jordan got his calls, but imo I think Jordan never abused it. he used it strategically.

an example of guys abusing it - Reggie Miller. Reggie would play for the foul, instead of just playing.

Wade - extends his off-ball hand and stiff arms everyone who guards him. Lebron is another who does this. the "defense" every team Lebron's ever been on they plant a guy in the paint while everyone on the perimeter slaps at the ball handlers hands so much that it deters the team they're facing from wanting to drive to the basket because the refs refuse to call it, because they're doing it on every possession. the Cavs/Heat know the refs will not call it on every possession, so they abuse it.

I believe this is the reason why these guys haven't won as much as they could have...or in Reggies' case never won anything. because in the Finals there are no other games going on, no distractions and the game itself is under a microscope....if the officials and the NBA allowed this while the attention was on their game at it's peak they'd look like the fools that the regular viewers see on a regular basis and no one would take this league seriously.

[D Dub]

I could live with LBJ getting a few calls here and there, human refs aren't perfect, and the guy is [dang] good...  The bigger problem to me, is their getting overprotective of him when he has the ball.   

Case in point.  Jae Crowder picked up a foul at the 11:59 point of the 2nd quarter Sunday.  It's hard to catch because it happened literally one second into the quarter, whistle blew as soon as LBJ caught the inbound pass -- truly absurd and a clear 'set the tone' kind of foul.  Very next play, LBJ drives hard at a 'once bitten twice shy' Crowder for an easy bucket. 

This is just one example of the Lebron bias. 

Despite watching years of this, I'm reading lots of 'we get em too' -- yet no one can site even one example nor did the telecast crew comment about make-up calls that went the Celts way.
Maybe they happened and I missed them? 
Or they happened and JVG didn't talk about it? 

Not sure...but when your # of seasons played exceeds the number of games you've fouled out of -- it just might be a trend. 

[Ilikesports17]

I could live with LBJ getting a few calls here and there, human refs aren't perfect, and the guy is [dang] good...  The bigger problem to me, is their getting overprotective of him when he has the ball.   

Case in point.  Jae Crowder picked up a foul at the 11:59 point of the 2nd quarter Sunday.  It's hard to catch because it happened literally one second into the quarter, whistle blew as soon as LBJ caught the inbound pass -- truly absurd and a clear 'set the tone' kind of foul.  Very next play, LBJ drives hard at a 'once bitten twice shy' Crowder for an easy bucket. 

This is just one example of the Lebron bias. 

Despite watching years of this, I'm reading lots of 'we get em too' -- yet no one can site even one example nor did the telecast crew comment about make-up calls that went the Celts way.
Maybe they happened and I missed them? 
Or they happened and JVG didn't talk about it? 

Not sure...but when your # of seasons played exceeds the number of games you've fouled out of -- it just might be a trend.

I hate that he can foul you all he wants but I at least get that part of it. You dont want to see a Cavs game with Lebron on the bench as an unbiased 3rd party. what I dont like is the you cant touch lebron rules. Im fine with giving him the benefit of the doubt with his own foul count but why call a foul every time his defender breathes on him? that has no effect on Lebron staying on the court it is just bogus.

[Moranis]

I would like to point out that Wilt and Lebron are probably the two most physically gifted players that the NBA has ever seen.  They may in fact be the two greatest physical athletes to ever play in any of the major sports.  There physical gifts are unmatched.  They are bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, more explosive, more agile, more control, etc. then everyone else.  They both also have incredible stamina and endurance.  To top it off they both had/have incredible basketball IQ's.  The reason James doesn't get called for fouls is by and large he doesn't commit them (sure they miss some blatant ones every so often, and he probably gets the benefit of the doubt on some, but no more than any other great player).  It really is that simple.

[celticsclay]

I would like to point out that Wilt and Lebron are probably the two most physically gifted players that the NBA has ever seen.  They may in fact be the two greatest physical athletes to ever play in any of the major sports.  There physical gifts are unmatched.  They are bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, more explosive, more agile, more control, etc. then everyone else.  They both also have incredible stamina and endurance.  To top it off they both had/have incredible basketball IQ's.  The reason James doesn't get called for fouls is by and large he doesn't commit them (sure they miss some blatant ones every so often, and he probably gets the benefit of the doubt on some, but no more than any other great player).  It really is that simple.

Is this a Brian Windhorst quote?

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I would like to point out that Wilt and Lebron are probably the two most physically gifted players that the NBA has ever seen.  They may in fact be the two greatest physical athletes to ever play in any of the major sports.  There physical gifts are unmatched.  They are bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, more explosive, more agile, more control, etc. then everyone else.  They both also have incredible stamina and endurance.  To top it off they both had/have incredible basketball IQ's.  The reason James doesn't get called for fouls is by and large he doesn't commit them (sure they miss some blatant ones every so often, and he probably gets the benefit of the doubt on some, but no more than any other great player).  It really is that simple.

I think we're just going to have to settle for disagreement on this. LeBron is immensely athletic, sure—a freak of nature, really—but he was anointed the NBA's next Golden Boy, as well as "king," when he was still in high school. There's no way the NBA was going to let him become damaged if they could help it. All superstars get calls, which I think is foolish enough, but I think LeBron gets even more calls than the typical superstar—he certainly gets more than the New Big Three ever did. And a lot of the fouls he gets away with are actually on offense—all those lower-the-shoulder bull rushes. He already has a significant weight advantage over most of his defenders, and then he's usually allowed to just plow through them. Remember that open-court "blocking foul" he drew against Pierce a couple years ago, in the playoffs I think? Pierce made a real ballsy move by trying to draw a charge against the runaway freight train known as LeBron, and of course the refs called Pierce for the foul.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I would like to point out that Wilt and Lebron are probably the two most physically gifted players that the NBA has ever seen.  They may in fact be the two greatest physical athletes to ever play in any of the major sports.  There physical gifts are unmatched.  They are bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, more explosive, more agile, more control, etc. then everyone else.  They both also have incredible stamina and endurance.  To top it off they both had/have incredible basketball IQ's.  The reason James doesn't get called for fouls is by and large he doesn't commit them (sure they miss some blatant ones every so often, and he probably gets the benefit of the doubt on some, but no more than any other great player).  It really is that simple.

Is this a Brian Windhorst quote?

Touché, my friend, touché. TP.

[Moranis]

I would like to point out that Wilt and Lebron are probably the two most physically gifted players that the NBA has ever seen.  They may in fact be the two greatest physical athletes to ever play in any of the major sports.  There physical gifts are unmatched.  They are bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, more explosive, more agile, more control, etc. then everyone else.  They both also have incredible stamina and endurance.  To top it off they both had/have incredible basketball IQ's.  The reason James doesn't get called for fouls is by and large he doesn't commit them (sure they miss some blatant ones every so often, and he probably gets the benefit of the doubt on some, but no more than any other great player).  It really is that simple.

I think we're just going to have to settle for disagreement on this. LeBron is immensely athletic, sure—a freak of nature, really—but he was anointed the NBA's next Golden Boy, as well as "king," when he was still in high school. There's no way the NBA was going to let him become damaged if they could help it. All superstars get calls, which I think is foolish enough, but I think LeBron gets even more calls than the typical superstar—he certainly gets more than the New Big Three ever did. And a lot of the fouls he gets away with are actually on offense—all those lower-the-shoulder bull rushes. He already has a significant weight advantage over most of his defenders, and then he's usually allowed to just plow through them. Remember that open-court "blocking foul" he drew against Pierce a couple years ago, in the playoffs I think? Pierce made a real ballsy move by trying to draw a charge against the runaway freight train known as LeBron, and of course the refs called Pierce for the foul.

You never get that call and if I remember correctly Pierce was a tad late on it and it probably was a blocking foul.  And James' size has no bearing on whether or not it is an offensive or defensive foul.  Just because the defender is smaller doesn't mean it isn't a foul on the defense. 

Superstars get the benefit of the doubt, they always do.  James is no different than other superstars, except that he drives to the hole a lot more than the other wing superstars so he is in a position to get the benefit of the doubt a lot more. 

Pierce, Garnett, and Allen got a lot of calls during the title and title contending seasons.  It comes with age.  I mean KG especially could have been called for illegal screens, elbows, etc. on pretty much every single possession.  The league shouldn't be calling that crap as it will make the game unwatchable.  Call the clear fouls, let the ticky tack ones go.  That is by and large what the league does because they don't want it to turn into the NCAA tournament which for most of the games couldn't be watched because of all the whistles.