The ABC announcers and the Refs

[kozlodoev]

https://youtu.be/GHgr_JuZmRY

A good example of how NBA refs see things differently than the rest of us. Shady? Maybe not. Makes you think? Very much.

That said, I've seen much worse officiated games than Game 1.

Wow ....my 95 year old blind grandmother could have called that shot  correct.  .....smh

It is probably a honest mistake (mostly because it is so blatant). Note that the player was lined up right in front of the foul circle. Ever tried to watch both your man and the ball-handler on defense? The level of discernible detail goes down a lot. I imagine the same thing may happen when you try to observe the pushing and shoving in the post, while keeping an eye at the perimeter guy with your peripheral vision; you see him taking a jump shot from behind a line, and up go the fingers.

[Celtics4ever]

I was laughing at the comment about giving James all the calls ...watching him complain is soooooo lame .....he has all the advantages , the best players ......yet he whines because a calls goes against him......whine ...whine ..cry ..cry ....every call that doesn't go his way......he is allowed to complain on every call ......never gets a technical.

The crybaby aspect of him is very unappealing.  I don't recall past greats whining that much.

[slamtheking]

Van Gundy is not literally confirming the conspiracy.
Van Gundy is running at about 50% sarcasm at all times. His schtick is analysis mixed with irony and sarcasm, i.e. the Marv Albert school (Jackson is just unfunny catch-phrases and outdated basketball thinking). To take his comments at face value is misguided. To take them as proving a conspiracy is the hallmark of conspiratorial thinking where every comment proves that the conspiracy is real.

Agree, Van Gundy's said a bunch of times that he hates foul trouble keeping stars on the bench, because he wants to see the best players play.  He's even argued (semi-sarcastically) against fouling out at all.  That's all he was doing here. 

which really emphasizes the stupidity of that viewpoint.  if the 'best' players are commiting more fouls than they're called for, how are they really the 'best' players? 

I can't figure out if this is a joke or not, but the answer around here tends to be no, so: LeBron is a better player than James Jones or whoever would come in for him if he got in foul trouble, no matter how many fouls he does or doesn't commit.  He's also a top 5 player in the league, no matter how many fouls he does or doesn't commit.  This wouldn't be a controversial idea if there wasn't a persecution narrative getting woven to rationalize losing to a better team with better players.

Allow me to clarify -- I'm calling SVG's viewpoint stupid.  I want players called for the fouls they commit regardless of their 'star' status.  Lebron is the best player in the league at this point even without help from the refs.  giving him a pass on 2-3 fouls per game (and a number of travels/palms) makes a mockery of the game (and for me personally, diminishes his accomplishments).  it's not just Lebron but he's the poster child for this kind of lopsided officiating.  Shaq and Jordan are 2 other players that enjoyed this level of favoritism as well.

Celtic, Sixer and Laker teams of the early to mid-80's didn't enjoy this level of officiating protection

I suspect fans of the teams they beat would disagree.

they might but I recall seeing a number of games where the best players from these teams having occasional games in foul trouble.   

[fairweatherfan]

Celtic, Sixer and Laker teams of the early to mid-80's didn't enjoy this level of officiating protection

I suspect fans of the teams they beat would disagree.

they might but I recall seeing a number of games where the best players from these teams having occasional games in foul trouble.   

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.  He fouled out against us in the 2012 ECF and Indiana in the 2013 ECF, and had a career-low in playoff minutes due to foul trouble in Game 5 of last year's ECF.  His crazy low/no fouls streak has been over for a few years now.  So this is something that's happening in the present too.

EDIT: Shoot, lost the other half.  The first part of what your post makes more sense, but I think JVG's gripe isn't with foul calls, but that the consequence is healthy stars parked on the bench from foul trouble, lowering the quality of the product.

[ChainSmokingLikeDino]

Here’s some arithmetic for the analytics guru’s here.  Let’s just look at the three obvious ones that the announcers talked about in the first half.

There were two non-calls LBJ strips, both leading to Cav buckets(2+2) while the C’s were in the bonus (1+1+1+1).  The LBJ goal-tend (+2), and finally the inexplicable decision to reset the shot clock when Lebron gets trapped & bounces it off Jae’s leg (+3).  Here’s what happens when you add up the point differential from those three plays:

(2+2)+(1+1+1+1)+(2+3)= 13

Anyone remember the final score?  Cavs 113  C’s 100

Couldn’t one could make the case that these three terrible first half calls --calls so bad they couldn’t even be ignored by the telecast crew-- were the difference between a really competitive game going down to the wire and the Cavs essentially blowing us out?

Not unless you also tally up all the points we received from bad calls/no-calls in our favor, as well as accounting for points we wouldn't have gotten if not for the calls you name (for example IT got a basket immediately after the goaltending no-call, so it didn't affect the margin).  You also can't assume we'd make every free throw you're awarding us.

You can't play what if like that. It is impossible. And, yes, we got some calls too. But it isn't like any of those plays are just substituted in and what occurred after would be the same. It wouldn;t be.

But, if you really want to look at it, just one example, the bolded goaltend above: The ball was blocked out of bounds. The Celtics retained possession and scored (the Isiah Thomas high off the glass, wild body control drive, right?), so there would be no swing there as The Celtics scored on that possession. So, if you are going to play this game at least get it right.

Are you talking to me or D Dub?  Because I mentioned exactly the same example you did.  I also agree that you can't model how the game would've played out differently, I just said if you're going to do the "these calls cost us X points" thing you at least have to do it both ways, and not assume every FT goes in either.

Apologies, that was to D Dub. Quoted the wrong thing.

[ChainSmokingLikeDino]

But, if you really want to look at it, just one example, the bolded goaltend above: The ball was blocked out of bounds. The Celtics retained possession and scored (the Isiah Thomas high off the glass, wild body control drive, right?), so there would be no swing there as The Celtics scored on that possession. So, if you are going to play this game at least get it right.

 
Lemme get this straight.  You've read the thread & now taken the time to login & chastise a 2 pt mistake made in a post by some random dude on internet...yet...you have no comment on the effect the refs had on a game that the NBA's own telecast crew couldn't ignore commenting on?

That was obviously a synecdochic example to point out the faults with employing that methodology.

[Celtics4ever]

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.

That being said he is 7th for all time FTA attempts in the playoffs at 1529,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career_p.html


and that means he takes 9.4 a game for his career in the playoffs.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_totals

Only averages 2.3 Fouls a game in the playoffs.   This also does not account for all the walks, goal tending pin it to backboard blocks they let him alone do. He gets away with murder on the court, and if you look at him cross it is a foul.

[jpotter33]

Celtic, Sixer and Laker teams of the early to mid-80's didn't enjoy this level of officiating protection

I suspect fans of the teams they beat would disagree.

they might but I recall seeing a number of games where the best players from these teams having occasional games in foul trouble.   

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.  He fouled out against us in the 2012 ECF and Indiana in the 2013 ECF, and had a career-low in playoff minutes due to foul trouble in Game 5 of last year's ECF.  His crazy low/no fouls streak has been over for a few years now.  So this is something that's happening in the present too.

EDIT: Shoot, lost the other half.  The first part of what your post makes more sense, but I think JVG's gripe isn't with foul calls, but that the consequence is healthy stars parked on the bench from foul trouble, lowering the quality of the product.

Wasn't it just last season that he went over two weeks without a foul called on him?

[CelticGuardian]

If anything we can hurt LeBron's chances in the Finals by really trying to foul somebody, namely Kevin Love, lets get him to deal with some more back issues...

[fairweatherfan]

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.

That being said he is 7th for all time FTA attempts in the playoffs at 1529,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career_p.html


and that means he takes 9.4 a game for his career in the playoffs.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_totals

Only averages 2.3 Fouls a game in the playoffs.   This also does not account for all the walks, goal tending pin it to backboard blocks they let him alone do. He gets away with murder on the court, and if you look at him cross it is a foul.

He gets fouled more than he fouls for sure, that's true of just about every elite player in any era.  But everyone gets away with traveling in the NBA, and pinning it to the backboard is legal in the NBA, so I'm not sure what that's about.

Again, I think LeBron got a lot of bad calls last game, and stars generally do get the benefit of the doubt from refs, I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

[incoherent]

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.

That being said he is 7th for all time FTA attempts in the playoffs at 1529,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career_p.html


and that means he takes 9.4 a game for his career in the playoffs.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_totals

Only averages 2.3 Fouls a game in the playoffs.   This also does not account for all the walks, goal tending pin it to backboard blocks they let him alone do. He gets away with murder on the court, and if you look at him cross it is a foul.

He gets fouled more than he fouls for sure, that's true of just about every elite player in any era.  But everyone gets away with traveling in the NBA, and pinning it to the backboard is legal in the NBA, so I'm not sure what that's about.

Again, I think LeBron got a lot of bad calls last game, and stars generally do get the benefit of the doubt from refs, I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

But isn't the conspiracy real if we can all see it happening during the game and there is stats to back it up?

[Celtics4ever]

I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

Do you feel that way about the 09 Finals game 7?  I think we were hosed in that one.  Of course, I am biased in that regard.   But I do think the league has helped greatness along sometimes with FTAs and to heavily marketed players to pad their stats.

[D Dub]

I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

Do you feel that way about the 09 Finals game 7?  I think we were hosed in that one.  Of course, I am biased in that regard.   But I do think the league has helped greatness along sometimes with FTAs and to heavily marketed players to pad their stats.

The question I have isn't so much IF its happening-- that's apparent.  I'm curious of the cause, if this is something driven more by point-shaving & Vegas than the League itself.

I thought it was curious earlier this year when Silver did that op-ed piece supporting legalized gambling.  Big time sports commissioners generally avoid that subject like the plague.  Could it be that legalizing gambling or as he put it, 'bringing it out of the underworld and into the sunlight so it can grow', is the only way he can combat the problem?

[celticsclay]

LeBron's been in foul trouble multiple times in the last few playoffs.

That being said he is 7th for all time FTA attempts in the playoffs at 1529,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career_p.html


and that means he takes 9.4 a game for his career in the playoffs.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_totals

Only averages 2.3 Fouls a game in the playoffs.   This also does not account for all the walks, goal tending pin it to backboard blocks they let him alone do. He gets away with murder on the court, and if you look at him cross it is a foul.

He gets fouled more than he fouls for sure, that's true of just about every elite player in any era.  But everyone gets away with traveling in the NBA, and pinning it to the backboard is legal in the NBA, so I'm not sure what that's about.

Again, I think LeBron got a lot of bad calls last game, and stars generally do get the benefit of the doubt from refs, I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

[/b]

But isn't the conspiracy real if we can all see it happening during the game and there is stats to back it up?

Guys it is not a conspiracy there is plenty of data to back it up going back at least 5 years. Unfortunately the best analysis comparing him to other stars was done in 2010 as many of the more recent articles have just focused on his streaks of low fouls, or not fouling out without putting them in a historical content.

http://www.emptythebench.com/2010/01/26/lebron-james-fouls/
 From 2010 (Note this also shows historical numbers from Jordan, Magic and Kobe and they all fouled at much higher rates than LBJ) 

"For starters, we should know how often fouls are being called around the league so we can see if there really is a big difference with LeBron. Through January 22, James played 1702 minutes and committed 77 fouls, good for one foul every 22.1 minutes of court time.

Everyone else in the NBA logged 298,868 minutes and committed 26,473 fouls, good for one every 11.3 minutes. Comparatively, James is half as likely to be called for a foul than the other 300-odd players as a whole. Without even picking up a calculator, it looks like most NBAers who would play 38.7 minutes a game, like James does, would accrue about 3.5 fouls per (remember that his 1.8 is rounded up)."

From 2012

After he fouled out in 2012 it was noted it was just the 5th time he had fouled out in 893 games, and the second time in a playoff game (unfortunately this was not put in a historical context)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2013/05/29/lebron-james-fouls-out-miami-heat-vs-indiana-pacers-game-4-eastern-conference-finals/2368449/

When he went 300 minutes of court time with two fouls
http://deadspin.com/5970837/lebron-james-has-committed-two-fouls-in-his-last-299-minutes-of-court-time

[fairweatherfan]

I just don't put stock in this conspiracy stuff, or the idea that it's next to impossible for a call to go against him. 

Do you feel that way about the 09 Finals game 7?  I think we were hosed in that one.  Of course, I am biased in that regard.   But I do think the league has helped greatness along sometimes with FTAs and to heavily marketed players to pad their stats.

I've never rewatched that game and don't plan to anytime soon, but my memory is of the Lakers, especially Kobe, plowing into the lane and creating a lot of contact against our guys who were clearly exhausted and out of position, especially our bigs.  On loose balls, especially late, the refs swallowed their whistles, which as the team that was behind and more fatigued was a disadvantage to us.  And I think the refs are often influenced by the home crowd, which may have been the case there too.  So I don't think we necessarily got treated equally by the refs, but that's not the same as getting deliberately hosed. 

That's how I feel about a lot of that stuff - reffing can be uneven, but refs are not evil, malicious people with an agenda, they're trying to do their jobs but are human beings who make mistakes and can be influenced by things they shouldn't.  Fans are far, far more biased in how they evaluate refs, in my opinion.  For any major game go to forums for each team and you will see fans adamantly stating that the refs screwed them and favored the other team.  They can't both be right, but they can both be wrong. 

I will say that in the past I've seen some games I see as very sketchy - the 02 Lakers-Kings Game 6 is the biggest example.  I don't think David Stern picked up the red phone and ordered some fouls, but I do think there was an unspoken attitude among a few old-time refs that longer series were good for the league, so they would favor a team that was behind in the series, especially if they were big-market.  But in a day and age where anyone can view and dissect every single play, and we have analytics that can identify and isolate any broad trend imaginable, that kind of approach isn't really sustainable.  And when I see people just crossing out "David Stern" and writing in "Adam Silver" into the same old argument, I think that says a lot more about how they rationalize results they don't like than what the league is actually doing.