Talent and Size Wins in the Playoffs

[Celtics18]

Every year some fanbase gets all excited about their starless group of overachievers and then gets throttled by a talent buzzsaw once the playoffs starts.  You'd think a team that has built 17 champions on the shoulders of 30 Hall of Fame players would understand how important talent is in this league.  It's the professional sports league with the least amount of parity.  The teams with the best talent always win.

Please.  Nobody (or at least very, very few of us) have ever thought this team is anything other than what it is.

I'm still enjoying them and looking forward to game two.  No need to be such a prick about it all.

Celtics18... I've been pretty vocal that I've been fully supportive of the playoff push despite fully understanding we were in for a beat-down.   

Now that we're getting predictably beat-down, I'm not losing sleep over it.  Why would anyone expect otherwise?  We are a bottom tier fringe playoff team facing a contender.  According to oddsmakers, winning this series would be the biggest upset in the history of basketball.

Sweep is likely, but I was on board with the playoffs for a few reasons.

#1 - Maybe it helps in our free agent pitch
#2 - Maybe it increases the trade value for a couple guys
#3 - I really like Stevens... and if we ever get the proper talent, I want him here.  Making the playoffs keeps him engaged and the players committed. 

I felt those three things offset the difference in draft picks.  Hornets are a better collection of talent and have the 9th best draft odds.  I didn't think a Top 5 pick was likely this year.  We'd have more trade options with a 9th pick, but I doubt it would have made much of a difference.  We're still getting outbid.

Plus, playoff experience is valuable for players.  Some of our young guys are getting some.  In the long run, that will end up being a positive for some of these guys, whether they are Celtics forever or not.

For most players, regardless of their draft position or their star potential, their initial playoff experience tends to end in defeat.  I'm glad a few of our young guys are getting some of their playoff apprenticeship time in at the beginning of their careers.  They'll be more prepared for when they get back there with a better team.

I was really happy with the effort today.  We just don't have the talent to compete with LeBron.  It's going to be a quick series. 

But it was great to see guys like Olynyk and Smart come in swinging without fear.  Hopefully they keep playing hard throughout the entire series.  Over the past couple months it was fun watching this little ant of a team lift 10 times it's weight.  I hope they don't get disheartened once it becomes clear to them they are an ant going up against a boot.

I doubt they will.  They knew it was an uphill battle going in.  I have faith that they'll fight hard until the end. 

[PhoSita]

No need to be such a prick about it all.

Agreed, on both sides of this.  There's a lot of choosing sides and talking to one another like we're enemies around here these days.

I apologize if it seems like I'm trying to rain on people's parades, here.  I'm definitely not trying to make an "I told you so!" pro-tanking thread. 

It's just a bummer to watch a team full of guys I genuinely like get thrashed and not have a clue how they're going to change it for next year.

Enjoy it.  Marcus Smart, Kelly Olynyk, Jared Sullinger, Tyler Zeller, and Jae Crowder may all be better players by next season, due in part to this experience.

Yeah it should help them a bit.  After Boston was swept in 2004 by the Pacers, they bounced back with 45 wins in 2005 and took the Pacers to 7 games... then missed the playoffs in 2006 and 2007.   2008 was title-town baby.  So maybe we'll get to 7 games next season, bottom out for a couple seasons and come storming back with #18 in 2019.  Here's hoping.

I'm willing to entertain the idea that all of that experience mattered ... for Paul Pierce, the legit star that the Celtics had back then.

I think I'd feel a lot better about where the team is at if I thought they had anybody like that.

[Casperian]

Every year some fanbase gets all excited about their starless group of overachievers and then gets throttled by a talent buzzsaw once the playoffs starts.  You'd think a team that has built 17 champions on the shoulders of 30 Hall of Fame players would understand how important talent is in this league.  It's the professional sports league with the least amount of parity.  The teams with the best talent always win.

Please.  Nobody (or at least very, very few of us) have ever thought this team is anything other than what it is.

I'm still enjoying them and looking forward to game two.  No need to be such a prick about it all.

Celtics18... I've been pretty vocal that I've been fully supportive of the playoff push despite fully understanding we were in for a beat-down.   

People say a lot of things. For a guy who's happy we made the playoffs you sure complain a lot.

You make it sound as if it's the fans' fault the team made it. Let me get through to you: no amount of complaining will change how this team operates now and in the future. We will not lose games intentionally. Do you understand?

Stop with the defeatist attitude and the constant, subtle undermining of confidence in this team. Everyone knew it would be tough to win the series against the Cavs, we're the 7th seed and the underdog for a reason. Doesn't mean we have to throw in the towel after 1 game.

[JHTruth]

We're completely outclassed in this series. Will be done in 4.

Let's hope Danny can work some magic or prepare to be first round fodder again

[JHTruth]

Every year some fanbase gets all excited about their starless group of overachievers and then gets throttled by a talent buzzsaw once the playoffs starts.  You'd think a team that has built 17 champions on the shoulders of 30 Hall of Fame players would understand how important talent is in this league.  It's the professional sports league with the least amount of parity.  The teams with the best talent always win.

Talent trumps all in the NBA. Should have tanked..

[Celtics18]

No need to be such a prick about it all.

Agreed, on both sides of this.  There's a lot of choosing sides and talking to one another like we're enemies around here these days.

I apologize if it seems like I'm trying to rain on people's parades, here.  I'm definitely not trying to make an "I told you so!" pro-tanking thread. 

It's just a bummer to watch a team full of guys I genuinely like get thrashed and not have a clue how they're going to change it for next year.

Enjoy it.  Marcus Smart, Kelly Olynyk, Jared Sullinger, Tyler Zeller, and Jae Crowder may all be better players by next season, due in part to this experience.

Yeah it should help them a bit.  After Boston was swept in 2004 by the Pacers, they bounced back with 45 wins in 2005 and took the Pacers to 7 games... then missed the playoffs in 2006 and 2007.   2008 was title-town baby.  So maybe we'll get to 7 games next season, bottom out for a couple seasons and come storming back with #18 in 2019.  Here's hoping.

I'm willing to entertain the idea that all of that experience mattered ... for Paul Pierce, the legit star that the Celtics had back then.

I think I'd feel a lot better about where the team is at if I thought they had anybody like that.

I doubt we have anyone on our roster who will end up as good as Paul Pierce.  I'd put Paul Pierce among the top ten of the generation that began around the turn of the millennium.  He's been that good.

That said, I believe Smart and Olynyk are the best of the bunch.  To me they have the highest remaining upside.  I also like Bradley, Crowder, and Zeller as guys who are still improving into their respective NBA niches.

I guess I've never bought into this notion that if you don't have a sure fire, bona fide, hall of fame, once-in-a-generation type talent that you may as well just pack it in and forget about trying to compete.

Playing in games that matter is important for the development of young players. 

[PhoSita]

No need to be such a prick about it all.

Agreed, on both sides of this.  There's a lot of choosing sides and talking to one another like we're enemies around here these days.

I apologize if it seems like I'm trying to rain on people's parades, here.  I'm definitely not trying to make an "I told you so!" pro-tanking thread. 

It's just a bummer to watch a team full of guys I genuinely like get thrashed and not have a clue how they're going to change it for next year.

Enjoy it.  Marcus Smart, Kelly Olynyk, Jared Sullinger, Tyler Zeller, and Jae Crowder may all be better players by next season, due in part to this experience.

Yeah it should help them a bit.  After Boston was swept in 2004 by the Pacers, they bounced back with 45 wins in 2005 and took the Pacers to 7 games... then missed the playoffs in 2006 and 2007.   2008 was title-town baby.  So maybe we'll get to 7 games next season, bottom out for a couple seasons and come storming back with #18 in 2019.  Here's hoping.

I'm willing to entertain the idea that all of that experience mattered ... for Paul Pierce, the legit star that the Celtics had back then.

I think I'd feel a lot better about where the team is at if I thought they had anybody like that.

I doubt we have anyone on our roster who will end up as good as Paul Pierce.  I'd put Paul Pierce among the top ten of the generation that began around the turn of the millennium.  He's been that good.

That said, I believe Smart and Olynyk are the best of the bunch.  To me they have the highest remaining upside.  I also like Bradley, Crowder, and Zeller as guys who are still improving into their respective NBA niches.

I guess I've never bought into this notion that if you don't have a sure fire, bona fide, hall of fame, once-in-a-generation type talent that you may as well just pack it in and forget about trying to compete.

Playing in games that matter is important for the development of young players.

I agree that Smart and Olynyk are the best reasons to have hope.  If Ainge can find an Al Jefferson or a Paul George in the draft we could have something.

[jambr380]

Trade up on draft day. Probably go after a SF like Stanley Johnson.

Go after Greg Monroe in free agency. Young, still improving. Good player. Skilled size.

I'm interested in Monroe, but I think he's a center long term.  The Celts would really need to revamp the roster to make it work with Monroe at the 5, I think.

Yeah, like trading Sully and KO and acquiring Ibaka. Monroe is a nice player, but a team needs an athletic outside shooting PF for them to really be successful. It's the same reason I don't want anything to do with Brook Lopez (although I would MUCH rather have Monroe).

I think our PF rotation is actually pretty nice - what we need is an athletic center to go with our outside shooting PFs.

[Chris22]

Talent and size and a player who is allowed to travel and foul and commit goaltending whenever he wants.

[Celtics4ever]

We really do not have a solid all around quality big.  Some guys today played well in spurts though but they did not sustain it.  Zeller started hot then wilted, KO played hot in the first half.   Crowder made some plays here and there.   Sully was a foul waiting to be whistled but I think he moved around better than before.  Jerebko played with grit.   Trouble is, that most of these guys are bench guys on a good team. 

We will need to be hitting on all cylinders to win.   We can't have another egg laid by AB.

[gpap]

Hate to oversimplify but we just got beat by a better team.

The Cavs have so much talent on that team it's not even fair.

They have shooting, size and the best player in the league.

Ainge needs to address this in the offseason and FINALLY get a REAL center.

Also, we need more from our guards. I know Isaiah scored 22 points but too many turnovers by our back court including Turner.

Finally, whoever was defending Kyrie needs to do a MUCH MUCH better job.

[PhoSita]

We really do not have a solid all around quality big.  Some guys today played well in spurts though but they did not sustain it.  Zeller started hot then wilted, KO played hot in the first half.   Crowder made some plays here and there.   Sully was a foul waiting to be whistled but I think he moved around better than before.  Jerebko played with grit.   Trouble is, that most of these guys are bench guys on a good team. 

We will need to be hitting on all cylinders to win.   We can't have another egg laid by AB.

Going to have to get lucky in the draft to get a nice all around quality big.  The guys who will be available in free agency will have major flaws on one end or the other (e.g. Monroe, Hibbert, Lopez).

Maybe a guy like Looney, Wood, Upshaw, or Harrell will become a nice find for the Celtics in this year's draft.

[Celtics4ever]

Looney scares me PhoSita, after the NCAA though all the tools are there.

[obnoxiousmime]

Titles generally go to the teams that have multiple stars who are among the best at their position. Great teamwork can only get you so far. The regular season is different than the postseason. Starters play more minutes and due to 7-game series any weakness your team has will definitely be exposed.

Anyway, we knew this going in. The system is imperfect and rewards losing. If you don't want to "intentionally" lose then you have to ensure your roster is non-competitive and will lose regardless of effort/scheme. Going the treadmill route can work but it's risky if you don't have assets like another team's future draft picks or young players with star potential you develop or trade.

I am worried that too many Celtics fans are assuming the Brooklyn picks will be gold and that we can treadmill our way until a star becomes available. There's no guarantee those picks will be in the lottery and no guarantee any star is going to want to sign or be dealt to Boston, especially considering we don't have any young stars to team up with them.

[crimson_stallion]

Every year some fanbase gets all excited about their starless group of overachievers and then gets throttled by a talent buzzsaw once the playoffs starts.  You'd think a team that has built 17 champions on the shoulders of 30 Hall of Fame players would understand how important talent is in this league.  It's the professional sports league with the least amount of parity.  The teams with the best talent always win.

Not true.

Miami had more talent than San Antonio last year, and they also had more talent than Dallas in Lebron's first season there.  They lost both years by teams who had more depth and played more like a team.

the Spurs in particular - at this point none of their players (not TD, Parker or Ginobilli) are stars anymore.  There is really nobody on that team that is any more a star than Isaiah Thomas is for us.  Still, they beat Miami's big three despite being far and away the underdogs of that series.