Author Topic: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad  (Read 17198 times)

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Re: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2015, 01:28:23 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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It's all about context.

Winning 45 games might be really exciting, or it might be humdrum. 


It matters what has come before and what the team appears to be heading toward.  Are you coming down from a great run?  Are you building toward something?  Or are you just hanging around in the middle with no clear way up?
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2015, 02:05:21 AM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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It's all about context.

Winning 45 games might be really exciting, or it might be humdrum. 


It matters what has come before and what the team appears to be heading toward.  Are you coming down from a great run?  Are you building toward something?  Or are you just hanging around in the middle with no clear way up?

How many teams with a "clear way up" actually make it there? The great majority get to the limbo talked about here and have to tear it down all over again. So, I just don't see what difference it makes how we get there, as long as we get there. Thanks to DA, organization, and assets (hopefully) we won't have to see a lot of trash basketball just to get there.

People cheered for tanking last season and we did, are you telling me we have to keep tanking? That's pretty shocking, I thought tanking was suppose to make us good. Oh, we have to keep tanking because we didn't get a top pick? Surely the 6ers aren't tanking again, are they? What about the other players from the top 5, what are their teams doing? The top 5 the year before that? The top 5 the year... you get the picture.
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2015, 04:57:36 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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However, that isn't to say that our current path of improving isn't going to work, it just simply isn't as easily apparent.


This is the essence of it, in my opinion.

I can understand the frustration that some fans have with second-guessing and naysaying of the current squad, the incessant need to look down the road and ask when the team will be more, more, more.  Can't we just appreciate the surprisingly fun and scrappy team we have in front of us?

On the other hand, this team will seem a lot less cute if they stay in the 35-45 win range for the next few years while they try to figure out a way to take the next step.

Ainge's strategy appears to be to constantly look for ways to add to the Celtics' treasure trove by incrementally upgrading assets and finding good deals, in the hopes that he will be ready to pounce when an opportunity to nab a star presents itself.

Question is, when will that opportunity come?  This summer?  Five summers from now?  And will some crappy team that stinks its way into a top pick step in and usurp that opportunity, as the Cavaliers did last summer with Kevin Love?


But, as Evantime points out, the difference between picking around 16 and picking around 10 or 11 often isn't that large (or non-existent).  We have a pretty good GM, and there's a solid chance he'll find us a player that multiple lottery teams fail to draft, to their detriment. 

I don't think the team will ultimately be hurt all that much as a result of dropping 5 or 6 spots in this draft by making the playoffs.

Agreed, well said and thank you.  I feel that by "living in the moment" it is possible to more fully enjoy the ride, both as a Celtics fan and an existential being.  :)

Win, lose or get blown out, I will really enjoy viewing the Celts in the playoffs again, and against a LeBron-led team, no less. 

I too fret from time to time about the sudden emergence as a mid-table team, but there is huge value in the culture that Stevens has fostered, and Danny still has a million picks to make or deal.  With four picks in this draft and eight in the next, it's a matter of simple arithmetic that he's going to package some of them, to someone, sometime.

Re: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2015, 03:43:36 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Can we not give the OP such a hard time? There is some validity to his argument. Getting stuck in the 40-52 win limbo is awful. That said, it was clear very early that we were going to be too good to get a top five pick. Once it was clear it was getting a pick between 8-12 or playoffs I think going for the playoffs was the right choice.

The big question is how we do attracting free agents. This is the first time we will ever have max money to spend. No one knows whether free agents will come to Boston. We have never had the money to pay them. Any of this talk that free agents will not come is purely conjecture unless someone has heard from a top line FA that even if Boston had the money they would never come here. I have never heard that so I think we just have to wait.

As a final note I honestly think Danny trades up if there is someone he likes. I suspect Mario Hezonja is his guy.

Because he makes it sound like it's the end of the world despite the fact that the Celtics have young players, draft picks and flexibility moving forward.

  You act like JUST MAKING THE PLAYOFFS is an accomplishment. This is the  Boston Celtics! We have the most championships in the NBA, we pride ourselves on titles, not on phony playoff appearances as a sub- 500 team with a much bleaker future in sight. Our exciting young players... okay, what transcendent star will we get for Olynyck or Bradley?  And with pick 10 we maybe couldn't get a top stud, but it'd be much easier and more realistic for us to trade up to get one.   . Don't compare our goals to that of the Knicks or Nets-- the worst franchises in the league!

Getting six spots higher probably wouldn't be pushing us on a faster track to title contention than making the playoffs.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 09:51:38 AM by fordescort »
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2015, 03:53:14 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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Can we not give the OP such a hard time? There is some validity to his argument. Getting stuck in the 40-52 win limbo is awful. That said, it was clear very early that we were going to be too good to get a top five pick. Once it was clear it was getting a pick between 8-12 or playoffs I think going for the playoffs was the right choice.

The big question is how we do attracting free agents. This is the first time we will ever have max money to spend. No one knows whether free agents will come to Boston. We have never had the money to pay them. Any of this talk that free agents will not come is purely conjecture unless someone has heard from a top line FA that even if Boston had the money they would never come here. I have never heard that so I think we just have to wait.

As a final note I honestly think Danny trades up if there is someone he likes. I suspect Mario Hezonja is his guy.

Because he makes it sound like it's the end of the world despite the fact that the Celtics have young players, draft picks and flexibility moving forward.

  You act like JUST MAKING THE PLAYOFFS is an accomplishment. This is the f***ng Boston Celtics! We have the most championships in the NBA, we pride ourselves on titles, not on phony playoff appearances as a sub- 500 team with a much bleaker future in sight. Our exciting young players... okay, what transcendent star will we get for Olynyck or Bradley?   And with pick 10 we maybe couldn't get a top stud, but it'd be much easier and more realistic for us to trade up to get one.   Don't compare our goals to that of the Knicks or Nets-- the worst franchises in the league!

Getting six spots higher probably wouldn't be pushing us on a faster track to title contention than making the playoffs.

I would like to add, how else would you tank @jmen788. We aren't going to out-tank Philly, LA, NYK. We have attempted to gut the roster as much as we can by trading Rondo and Green. To be honest, no one expected us to make playoffs. I guess you can say we could have traded Bass to tank even more, but I honestly don't think even with that we are bad enough for a top 5. And as Celtics18 said, getting 6 spots higher isn't really pushing us to title contention quicker.

And personally, I do not think it makes us bad fans to wish for playoffs and we are not setting the bar low.
Quote
hope the snide people like you are proud as you lower our bar to just making the playoffs.

So is tanking and being in a lottery not considered setting the bar low? I get where you are coming from, that we need to draft a superstar. What are the chances that these coming kids are going to be superstars? Wasn't last year's draft supposedly also overhyped as being one of the best? We cannot judge the season as bad just cuz we didn't tank. This is a topic we should revisit in like 5 years when said "lottery picks" do become stars and "we did not tank" debate. It's almost the same as the people bashing on us picking Kelly over Giannis. Giannis is a great prospect, but tbh, we are not the only one who missed him, 13 other teams did as well. And Kelly is doing fine in his first game in the playoffs.

I believe in Danny, and I believe he will use a combination of our draft picks, salary cap to help make our team better for the future. Don't forget, we still hold the Net's first round picks, which could mean we can compete while having a high draft pick

Relax, I believe in Danny and I give him the most credit for signing and locking Stevens to a 6 year deal, and it's really showing that Stevens is an ELITE coach in just his 2nd season, and just 2 wins away from .500
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 09:53:05 AM by fordescort »

Re: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2015, 03:59:01 PM »

Offline jmen788

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Can we not give the OP such a hard time? There is some validity to his argument. Getting stuck in the 40-52 win limbo is awful. That said, it was clear very early that we were going to be too good to get a top five pick. Once it was clear it was getting a pick between 8-12 or playoffs I think going for the playoffs was the right choice.

The big question is how we do attracting free agents. This is the first time we will ever have max money to spend. No one knows whether free agents will come to Boston. We have never had the money to pay them. Any of this talk that free agents will not come is purely conjecture unless someone has heard from a top line FA that even if Boston had the money they would never come here. I have never heard that so I think we just have to wait.

As a final note I honestly think Danny trades up if there is someone he likes. I suspect Mario Hezonja is his guy.

Because he makes it sound like it's the end of the world despite the fact that the Celtics have young players, draft picks and flexibility moving forward.

LOL! Get a grip. Delusional homer fans like you are the reason the team didn't choose the longer path to actually get to contention. You guys are a JOKE! You act like JUST MAKING THE PLAYOFFS is an accomplishment. This is the f***ng Boston Celtics! We have the most championships in the NBA, we pride ourselves on titles, not on phony playoff appearances as a sub- 500 team with a much bleaker future in sight. Our exciting young players... okay, what transcendent star will we get for Olynyck or Bradley? Puh-lease. And with pick 10 we maybe couldn't get a top stud, but it'd be much easier and more realistic for us to trade up to get one.  I hope the snide people like you are proud as you lower our bar to just making the playoffs. Don't compare our goals to that of the Knicks or Nets-- the worst franchises in the league!

Getting six spots higher probably wouldn't be pushing us on a faster track to title contention than making the playoffs.

I would like to add, how else would you tank @jmen788. We aren't going to out-tank Philly, LA, NYK. We have attempted to gut the roster as much as we can by trading Rondo and Green. To be honest, no one expected us to make playoffs. I guess you can say we could have traded Bass to tank even more, but I honestly don't think even with that we are bad enough for a top 5. And as Celtics18 said, getting 6 spots higher isn't really pushing us to title contention quicker.

And personally, I do not think it makes us bad fans to wish for playoffs and we are not setting the bar low.
Quote
hope the snide people like you are proud as you lower our bar to just making the playoffs.

So is tanking and being in a lottery not considered setting the bar low? I get where you are coming from, that we need to draft a superstar. What are the chances that these coming kids are going to be superstars? Wasn't last year's draft supposedly also overhyped as being one of the best? We cannot judge the season as bad just cuz we didn't tank. This is a topic we should revisit in like 5 years when said "lottery picks" do become stars and "we did not tank" debate. It's almost the same as the people bashing on us picking Kelly over Giannis. Giannis is a great prospect, but tbh, we are not the only one who missed him, 13 other teams did as well. And Kelly is doing fine in his first game in the playoffs.

I believe in Danny, and I believe he will use a combination of our draft picks, salary cap to help make our team better for the future. Don't forget, we still hold the Net's first round picks, which could mean we can compete while having a high draft pick

Relax, I believe in Danny and I give him the most credit for signing and locking Stevens to a 6 year deal, and it's really showing that Stevens is an ELITE coach in just his 2nd season, and just 2 wins away from .500

As Adam Silver said, it's called "rebuilding, not tanking" lol. In all seriousness though we could've "developed" the young players more and played Crowder and Young more, and play someone like Turner less. Even though Turner played okay, he didn't enhance his trade value to the point of even a late 1st, and he will not be a player on our next championship contender. Further, we could've not traded for IT (even though I love him because it was too early to get someone like him), and we could've also "strategically rested" certain players on some nights.

I should add that I DON'T think we needed to tank on NY or Philly's level. Even pick 8 or 9 would be GREAT as this is a SPECIAL DRAFT-- at 8 you could even get a Stanley Johnson or Porzingis. Last year's draft was special too and I favored bottoming out then too, and we could a special player in Smart.

Lastly, Danny is a FABULOUS General Manager. However, he's not a magician, he can't just pull a transcendent star out of nowhere...

Re: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2015, 04:03:15 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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As Adam Silver said, it's called "rebuilding, not tanking" lol. In all seriousness though we could've "developed" the young players more and played Crowder and Young more, and play someone like Turner less. Even though Turner played okay, he didn't enhance his trade value to the point of even a late 1st, and he will not be a player on our next championship contender. Further, we could've not traded for IT (even though I love him because it was too early to get someone like him), and we could've also "strategically rested" certain players on some nights.

I should add that I DON'T think we needed to tank on NY or Philly's level. Even pick 8 or 9 would be GREAT as this is a SPECIAL DRAFT-- at 8 you could even get a Stanley Johnson or Porzingis. Last year's draft was special too and I favored bottoming out then too, and we could a special player in Smart.

Lastly, Danny is a FABULOUS General Manager. However, he's not a magician, he can't just pull a transcendent star out of nowhere...

Others have said this already, but this sounds like a far lower bar for the team than what you've accused others of having.  Deliberately losing games, passing on beneficial trades, and dropping out of the playoffs just to up the odds of drafting a game changer by a few percentage points doesn't sound like the sort of thing an elite franchise with high standards should need to do under any circumstances.

Re: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2015, 04:03:32 PM »

Offline Diggles

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This is kind of a rant, so I apologize in advance... but really? We could have had pick 9 or 10 and realistically been able to trade up a few spots to get a Stanley Johnson, AKA a real difference maker. Now, the best we can get is a fringe player. In terms of strategy for the club, this is awful-- we won[t win it all this year, and now our future years are less prosperous. Top FAs won't come here so we have to improve through trades & the draft. Pick 16 is pretty useless, I'd much rather trade it for a player at this point or offer Sully and or KO with pick 16 and other sweeteners to try and get something half decent. Overall this is just so disappointing. Turner or Johnson would have been perfect, but no, not good enough-- we had to go for the playoffs when we don't deserve to be there. Brutal.

This is considering your correct in getting him at 9.  And that he is worth it.  Compared to 15 people and a coach gaining playoff experience.   I'll take 15 guys with experience over 1 player that we "might get" at nine.   
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Re: Pick #15 or 16 -- This is Bad
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2015, 04:17:47 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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Can we not give the OP such a hard time? There is some validity to his argument. Getting stuck in the 40-52 win limbo is awful. That said, it was clear very early that we were going to be too good to get a top five pick. Once it was clear it was getting a pick between 8-12 or playoffs I think going for the playoffs was the right choice.

The big question is how we do attracting free agents. This is the first time we will ever have max money to spend. No one knows whether free agents will come to Boston. We have never had the money to pay them. Any of this talk that free agents will not come is purely conjecture unless someone has heard from a top line FA that even if Boston had the money they would never come here. I have never heard that so I think we just have to wait.

As a final note I honestly think Danny trades up if there is someone he likes. I suspect Mario Hezonja is his guy.

Because he makes it sound like it's the end of the world despite the fact that the Celtics have young players, draft picks and flexibility moving forward.

LOL! Get a grip. Delusional homer fans like you are the reason the team didn't choose the longer path to actually get to contention. You guys are a JOKE! You act like JUST MAKING THE PLAYOFFS is an accomplishment. This is the f***ng Boston Celtics! We have the most championships in the NBA, we pride ourselves on titles, not on phony playoff appearances as a sub- 500 team with a much bleaker future in sight. Our exciting young players... okay, what transcendent star will we get for Olynyck or Bradley? Puh-lease. And with pick 10 we maybe couldn't get a top stud, but it'd be much easier and more realistic for us to trade up to get one.  I hope the snide people like you are proud as you lower our bar to just making the playoffs. Don't compare our goals to that of the Knicks or Nets-- the worst franchises in the league!

Getting six spots higher probably wouldn't be pushing us on a faster track to title contention than making the playoffs.

I would like to add, how else would you tank @jmen788. We aren't going to out-tank Philly, LA, NYK. We have attempted to gut the roster as much as we can by trading Rondo and Green. To be honest, no one expected us to make playoffs. I guess you can say we could have traded Bass to tank even more, but I honestly don't think even with that we are bad enough for a top 5. And as Celtics18 said, getting 6 spots higher isn't really pushing us to title contention quicker.

And personally, I do not think it makes us bad fans to wish for playoffs and we are not setting the bar low.
Quote
hope the snide people like you are proud as you lower our bar to just making the playoffs.

So is tanking and being in a lottery not considered setting the bar low? I get where you are coming from, that we need to draft a superstar. What are the chances that these coming kids are going to be superstars? Wasn't last year's draft supposedly also overhyped as being one of the best? We cannot judge the season as bad just cuz we didn't tank. This is a topic we should revisit in like 5 years when said "lottery picks" do become stars and "we did not tank" debate. It's almost the same as the people bashing on us picking Kelly over Giannis. Giannis is a great prospect, but tbh, we are not the only one who missed him, 13 other teams did as well. And Kelly is doing fine in his first game in the playoffs.

I believe in Danny, and I believe he will use a combination of our draft picks, salary cap to help make our team better for the future. Don't forget, we still hold the Net's first round picks, which could mean we can compete while having a high draft pick

Relax, I believe in Danny and I give him the most credit for signing and locking Stevens to a 6 year deal, and it's really showing that Stevens is an ELITE coach in just his 2nd season, and just 2 wins away from .500

As Adam Silver said, it's called "rebuilding, not tanking" lol. In all seriousness though we could've "developed" the young players more and played Crowder and Young more, and play someone like Turner less. Even though Turner played okay, he didn't enhance his trade value to the point of even a late 1st, and he will not be a player on our next championship contender. Further, we could've not traded for IT (even though I love him because it was too early to get someone like him), and we could've also "strategically rested" certain players on some nights.

I should add that I DON'T think we needed to tank on NY or Philly's level. Even pick 8 or 9 would be GREAT as this is a SPECIAL DRAFT-- at 8 you could even get a Stanley Johnson or Porzingis. Last year's draft was special too and I favored bottoming out then too, and we could a special player in Smart.

Lastly, Danny is a FABULOUS General Manager. However, he's not a magician, he can't just pull a transcendent star out of nowhere...

I respectfully disagree on the Thomas trade. Thomas is a legit go-to-guy for us as of now and is instance offense and we got him locked into a 3 year deal (which I think is a steal). It wasn't that we got him to boost his trade value in a year (or maybe we are?). I think that was a good trade. I'm not a big salary cap expert, but isn't there suppose to be a massive salary cap jump next year?