Author Topic: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel  (Read 38024 times)

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Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 04:02:02 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I happen to think Noel will be as good a rebounder as Davis and a better defensive player. He does lack Davis' offensive abilities though. But that doesn't mean Noel couldn't be a 20/13 guy with 2.5 SPG and 3.5 BPG with an unreal DRTG. If I can't have Davis, I will take the defensively dominant Noel any day!!!

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2015, 04:05:44 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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But  I am admittedly seriously biased in his favor for personal reasons.
;D
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2015, 04:14:48 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Wiggins, simply because teams don't win ROTY awards back to back in the modern era and the 76ers backlash is going to be strong.

Do you really think this is a thing that influences voters?

Besides Penny losing to CWebb, I can't think of another time in the modern era when this would have even been a potential issue.  Hakeem losing to Jordan?  In both of those issues I'd say the right man won though.

76ers backlash I can see though.

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Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2015, 04:16:52 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Wiggins no question!!! To the people saying Noel, would you seriously rather have Noel than Wiggins?
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Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2015, 04:21:48 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Wiggins, simply because teams don't win ROTY awards back to back in the modern era and the 76ers backlash is going to be strong.

Do you really think this is a thing that influences voters?

Besides Penny losing to CWebb, I can't think of another time in the modern era when this would have even been a potential issue.  Hakeem losing to Jordan?  In both of those issues I'd say the right man won though.

76ers backlash I can see though.

I absolutely do. It's part of the reason why there hasn't been a repeat team MVP between two players since Cooz and Russell. Also, think about it: you'd have to have an incredibly outstanding season to distinguish yourself from your ROTY teammate, who would almost certainly claim some of the team success.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2015, 04:22:36 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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CLE got pawned in dealing Wiggins for Love.

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2015, 04:24:59 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Wiggins no question!!! To the people saying Noel, would you seriously rather have Noel than Wiggins?
Absolutely but I am a guy that values rebounding and defense over scoring. And. Noel was my neighbor so, yeah, my pick would be Nerlens, no question.

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2015, 04:40:24 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Wiggins no question!!! To the people saying Noel, would you seriously rather have Noel than Wiggins?
Absolutely but I am a guy that values rebounding and defense over scoring. And. Noel was my neighbor so, yeah, my pick would be Nerlens, no question.


Can you convince him to come back to boston?

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2015, 05:00:54 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Wiggins no question!!! To the people saying Noel, would you seriously rather have Noel than Wiggins?
Absolutely but I am a guy that values rebounding and defense over scoring. And. Noel was my neighbor so, yeah, my pick would be Nerlens, no question.


Can you convince him to come back to boston?
I will have my son ask him the next time they see each other. That's the best I can do.

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2015, 07:03:37 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Wiggins. You really really love Noels by the way. Putting him in the same sentence as Davis is just unfair to Noel.
I like dominant defensive bigs, but I also like well-rounded elite scorers.   I like both of those guys.  I'm bummed we couldn't land Noel for Rondo during the 2013 draft... I'm equally bummed we missed out on a top 3 pick during the 2014 draft.  BOth of those guys look like they are going to be perennial all-stars. 

And is it actually unfair to Noel to compare him to Davis?  Davis is a better scorer.  Are we sure Noel isn't going to be a better defender?

Yes Davis has transcendent athleticism and is in legitimate conversation for MVP this year at 23 years old. He is having one of the best statistical seasons in the history of the NBA. Comparing a guy that is having a really nice rookie season to him is just stupid and pointless and again even unfair to Noel. I know you are smarter and more realistic than this. Is the hyperbole really that necessary to express that you like him?
But he was pointing out that they had similar rookie seasons.  Nothing wrong with that at all, you know when the stats show they did in fact have similar rookie seasons.

Umm... this is a little different than comparing their rookie season statistics...
Were you surprised by Anthony Davis' development?  I sure as heck wasn't.  When he was averaging a Nerlens-esque 13 and 8, I pointed out on this forum that he was the second coming of Kevin Garnett and got similar responses to what I'm getting with Nerlens.   

They were compared to each other in College.  They are having somewhat similar rookie seasons.  It's not outrageous to compare the two right now.   Will Nerlens be as good as Davis in a couple years?  Dunno.  But he might be a better defender.

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2015, 07:06:36 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Wiggins. You really really love Noels by the way. Putting him in the same sentence as Davis is just unfair to Noel.
I like dominant defensive bigs, but I also like well-rounded elite scorers.   I like both of those guys.  I'm bummed we couldn't land Noel for Rondo during the 2013 draft... I'm equally bummed we missed out on a top 3 pick during the 2014 draft.  BOth of those guys look like they are going to be perennial all-stars. 

And is it actually unfair to Noel to compare him to Davis?  Davis is a better scorer.  Are we sure Noel isn't going to be a better defender?

Yes Davis has transcendent athleticism and is in legitimate conversation for MVP this year at 23 years old. He is having one of the best statistical seasons in the history of the NBA. Comparing a guy that is having a really nice rookie season to him is just stupid and pointless and again even unfair to Noel. I know you are smarter and more realistic than this. Is the hyperbole really that necessary to express that you like him?
But he was pointing out that they had similar rookie seasons.  Nothing wrong with that at all, you know when the stats show they did in fact have similar rookie seasons.
Rookie Davis per 100 possessions: 25.5 points, 15.3 rebounds, 2.2 steals, 3.3 blocks, 56 TS%, .159 WS/48.
Rookie Noel per 100 possessions: 16.1 points, 13.2 rebounds, 2.9 steals, 3.1 blocks, 50 TS%, .084 WS/48.

Only David Robinson has done what Davis did as rookie. I started watching more of Noel since New Year and he can definitely be as good a defender as Davis, but they weren't that close statistically as rookies. Davis was much better.
So Davis obviously was more polished offensively coming into the league. Btw, you should do the same thing, but use Nerlens Post All-star split.  He entered this season coming off major surgery and has been significantly better in the second half of the season as his athleticism has returned.   

Pre all-star he avearged 8 points, 7 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 1.7 block, 1.6 steals on 44% shooting.  Post All-star he's averaged 14 points, 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.5 block, 2.3 steals on 49% shooting.    That's a major improvement. 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 07:25:01 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2015, 07:08:15 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Wiggins. You really really love Noels by the way. Putting him in the same sentence as Davis is just unfair to Noel.
I like dominant defensive bigs, but I also like well-rounded elite scorers.   I like both of those guys.  I'm bummed we couldn't land Noel for Rondo during the 2013 draft... I'm equally bummed we missed out on a top 3 pick during the 2014 draft.  BOth of those guys look like they are going to be perennial all-stars. 

And is it actually unfair to Noel to compare him to Davis?  Davis is a better scorer.  Are we sure Noel isn't going to be a better defender?

Yes Davis has transcendent athleticism and is in legitimate conversation for MVP this year at 23 years old. He is having one of the best statistical seasons in the history of the NBA. Comparing a guy that is having a really nice rookie season to him is just stupid and pointless and again even unfair to Noel. I know you are smarter and more realistic than this. Is the hyperbole really that necessary to express that you like him?
But he was pointing out that they had similar rookie seasons.  Nothing wrong with that at all, you know when the stats show they did in fact have similar rookie seasons.

Umm... this is a little different than comparing their rookie season statistics...
Were you surprised by Anthony Davis' development?  I sure as heck wasn't.  When he was averaging a Nerlens-esque 13 and 8, I pointed out on this forum that he was the second coming of Kevin Garnett and got similar responses to what I'm getting with Nerlens.   

They were compared to each other in College.  They are having somewhat similar rookie seasons.  It's not outrageous to compare the two right now.   Will Nerlens be as good as Davis in a couple years?  Dunno.  But he might be a better defender.

It is outrageous, and a few people have outlined why, but I think you are just trolling or being hyperbolic at this point so I don't care to discuss the two any more.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 07:16:46 PM by celticsclay »

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2015, 07:19:14 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Wiggins. You really really love Noels by the way. Putting him in the same sentence as Davis is just unfair to Noel.
I like dominant defensive bigs, but I also like well-rounded elite scorers.   I like both of those guys.  I'm bummed we couldn't land Noel for Rondo during the 2013 draft... I'm equally bummed we missed out on a top 3 pick during the 2014 draft.  BOth of those guys look like they are going to be perennial all-stars. 

And is it actually unfair to Noel to compare him to Davis?  Davis is a better scorer.  Are we sure Noel isn't going to be a better defender?

Yes Davis has transcendent athleticism and is in legitimate conversation for MVP this year at 23 years old. He is having one of the best statistical seasons in the history of the NBA. Comparing a guy that is having a really nice rookie season to him is just stupid and pointless and again even unfair to Noel. I know you are smarter and more realistic than this. Is the hyperbole really that necessary to express that you like him?
But he was pointing out that they had similar rookie seasons.  Nothing wrong with that at all, you know when the stats show they did in fact have similar rookie seasons.

Umm... this is a little different than comparing their rookie season statistics...
Were you surprised by Anthony Davis' development?  I sure as heck wasn't.  When he was averaging a Nerlens-esque 13 and 8, I pointed out on this forum that he was the second coming of Kevin Garnett and got similar responses to what I'm getting with Nerlens.   

They were compared to each other in College.  They are having somewhat similar rookie seasons.  It's not outrageous to compare the two right now.   Will Nerlens be as good as Davis in a couple years?  Dunno.  But he might be a better defender.

It is outrageous, and a few people have outlined why, but I think you are just trolling or being hyperbolic at this point so I don't care to compare the two any more.
Offensively, Davis was more polished coming into the league.  Beyond that, what is so outrageous about it?  Nerlens is putting up historic defensive stats for a player his age.   I'm not the only person pointing out that he might be ROY.   

FWIW, I looked up what Davis Per-36 stats were as a rookie:  17 points, 10.2 Rebounds, 1.2 assists, 2.2 blocks, 1.5 steals

FWIW,  here's Nerlens Per-36 stats if you only include his post-allstar performances:  15.1 points, 11.4 rebounds, 2 assits, 2.7 blocks, 2.5 steals

Isn't that just confirming what we knew about him coming out of College?  Extremely raw offensively, but a potential dominant defender.  Nerlens was considered to be by far the best prospect of the 2013 Draft.  He went to the same school as Davis a year after him. 

Davis Per-40 stats in College:  17.7 points, 13 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 1.7 steals, 5.8 blocks, 62%/71%   
Noel's Per-40 stats in College:   13.1 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.6 steals, 5.5 blocks, 59%/53%

His NBA stats seem to be following the same trajectory.


Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2015, 07:23:37 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I agree. I don't see anything outrageous in the comparison, especially when one is admitting Noel clearly isn't as good as Davis offensively. But in every other respect, they are extremely similar.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 07:42:35 PM by nickagneta »

Re: ROY: Andrew Wiggins or Nerlens Noel
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2015, 07:34:49 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Look.. you are honestly the only person I have ever heard put these guys in the same conversation and obviously I read a lot about basketball.

There are transcendent superstars in the NBA that their presence alone can make a team a playoff contender, and perhaps a championship contender in the apex of their prime. Anthony Davis is one of those players. He has single handedly kept his team in the playoff race in a ridiculously tough western conference despite his key players missing extended time with injuries (Holiday, Gordon) or battling injuries and having their games fall off a cliff (Anderson).

Noel is obviously not that player right now, and I have not heard many people besides you say they view him in that category. That is why comparing him and Davis is like comparing Lebron and Luol Deng at this point.