I have an honest question. Why does it seem everyone wants Kevin Love?

[Donoghus]

It's not the fact of not wanting to sign a top PF.  It's signing what can do us the most.  If you keep Sully who is a top 15 to 20 PF when healthy (yes he needs to drop weight), since he's not a true center.  Would you rather one piece that can help like a Kevin Love, or two pieces in positions we truly need help at?

Basically, this has been somewhat along the lines of my stance on Love last summer & of now.  I'm not sold on bringing in Love as a number one guy and tying up a substantial amount of cap room at a position that the Celtics are already decent at.  I'd much rather try & upgrade the small forward position or center position.  If that means riding with K.O. & Sully for the time being, so be it.  I can live with that if the Celtics can bring themselves in a legit wing. 

I simply think the wing position is of greater addressing & need going forward.    You bring in Love and you're still going to have to address the 3 & 5 with a lot less cap room.  I can live with what the Celtics have at the PF position for now if they can upgrade at other spots.

Crowder seems like a fine low-usage defender at the 3, and should be easily retained as a RFA if Ainge is willing to bring him back.

Kawhi Leonard is a near impossibility. I don't see how Spurs brass doesn't match any offer out there for him. Ditto for DeAndre Jordan. The Clippers have one of the wealthiest owners in the NBA; I doubt Ballmer blinks about bringing Jordan back on a max deal.

As for the rest of the roster, Ainge will still have assets to use if Love is coming as a free agent. I don't think Ainge has to empty the cupboard to get him.

Here's the thing.  I don't think Kawhi or any big name SF is coming here this year.  Realistically, I think its going to continue to be a position of need for another season.  I agree that they should resign Crowder.  I'm perfectly fine as having him as a rotation wing. 

I've always maintained that this was going to be a slow multi-year rebuild & that summer of 2016 was going to be when some of the real fireworks start going down.  Possibly starting earlier at the trade deadline next year. 

This team is not getting a "summer 2007" makeover this offseason.   Those almost never happen and it certainly appears that this team is going to go about the rebuild piecemeal over a course of time. 

[Lucky17]

^ I hear you, Dons. I know you weren't banging the drum for Kawhi, et al, was being lazy and addressing other POVs via my response to you.

I do think Ainge has all sorts of options on the table this offseason, even including the potential for fireworks. The TPEs, plus the MLE, plus Wallace's expiring contract, plus picks and players: some combination of these could be wielded to radically change the roster this summer, if Ainge felt the stars were aligning for him.

But Ainge is also a patient GM, and I can see him continuing to churn the roster to acquire assets for a big cash-in next summer, as you do.

[JHTruth]

Love would easily be the best player on the team, not even close really. A more relevant question is, why WOULDN'T we want Love on the team?

[JohnBoy65]

Why do I want Kevin Love to join the C's
1. He is an upgrade at the pf position
2. His ability to space the floor fits the way the Celtics want to play offensively
3. people are making the mistake of thinking about how would Love would fit around the current players, but none of our current players are good enough for the C's to try and build around. Love is the type of foundational player you build around and attract other free agents with.

He doesn't attract other free agents, if that was the case when he was putting up huge numbers, players would have flown to the T-Wolves.  Yes, he's an upgrade over Sully, but wouldn't you rather a true center and a true small forward instead of one upgrade.  Since Sully averages close to 15 a game, and close to 9 rebounds a game.  Love only put up crazy scoring numbers cause he had to be the do all.  Any power forward putting up 15 and 9 and great in the NBA.

You can't compare Minnesota's market to Boston. I would say Boston is a more popular place to play than Minny. How many big names did KG attract there?

[D Dub]

Thank You for understanding basketball.  Everyone is looking at Sully and K.O. as some hack of a basketball player.  Sully was a 15 and 9 guy, which is great for a power forward.  Yes he's not putting up Love careers season of 22 and 12.  But give me a true center like a DeAndre Jordan and a true small forward like Leonard.  Adding these two make more sense then Love as a team prospective.  I'm not hating on Love, I just think he's not what the Celtics need, since we need other positions more.  Adding the two I said our starting line up would be great. 

Option A

Center - Jordan
Power Forward - Sully
Small Forward - Leonard
Shooting Guard - Bradley
Point Guard - Smart

Bench would have Thomas, Turner, K.O., Zeller, Resign Crowder and Bass, Pressey, Plus two first rounder. 

Say we sign Love.  Option B/C

Center - Sully or Zeller
Power Forward - Love
Small Forward - Leonard
Shooting Guard - Bradley
Point Guard - Smart

or

Center - Jordan
Power Forward - Love
Small Forward - Turner
Shooting Guard - Bradley
Point Guard - Smart

Bench would have Thomas, Turner, K.O., Zeller , Resign Crowder and Bass, Pressey, Plus two first rounder. 

If you look at this any basketball fan should be able to see from a true basketball prospective not just seeing the name Love, Option A is better then Option B or C

I think ten years ago your Option A is the best.  Today though, with how the league has changed over the last 18 months, I'd rather have that Option B running Steven's offense. 

It's my opinion that the whole 'rim protector' thing is overblown.  Sure, Deandre is an athletic freak who can block 3-4 a night.  But he can't shoot, not even a lick.  Therefore, on offense, he can't space the floor. 

Now contrast that with teams like SA and GS.  They are successful because everyone can shoot, space the floor for their guards to break down defenses.  Not to take anything away from a 36 yo Tim Duncan -- but their lineups don't feature many big-time shot blockers.  Look at what Golden State is doing, starting 6'7" Draymond Green at Center -- not exactly a guy striking fear into opposing guards.  But, it allows them to switch everything on the perimeter and prevent the penetration in the first place.  This is far more effective than getting forced into a mis-match and hoping your 7'er can challenge a shot at the rim once your defense gets exposed.   

[D.o.s.]

Rim Protector =/= Shot Blocker

[Celtics4ever]

I would say Boston is a more popular place to play than Minny.

 

LA is even more popular and was his home.   Get your tissues.  I will be relieved.

Everyone is looking at Sully and K.O. as some hack of a basketball player.  Sully was a 15 and 9 guy, which is great for a power forward.

  They are not great by any stretch.  Get real, you make them sound like a good players that do not require a certain type of center to cover their lack of athletic ability.   That is not the case.

Thank You for understanding basketball.

Sully was overweight, did not run the court and let his body get the best of him this year.  Even with "the ideal Center"   other teams will pull on out on the perimeter where the center does not matter and drive around him.   When you have a weak link it is targeted in iso plays.   That is basketball.    All they have to do is pull the center out to the top of the key and all the sudden DeAndre Jordan is not as big as help in the low post and they have an iso on a mediocre.      defender.  As for understanding basketball, teams have been doing this for a while now Wolf.   

[byennie]

On Minnesota's record: I would concede that the two teams are apples and oranges. This year they've had injuries, but they also got a lot more out of Wiggins, Shabazz, Young and Dieng (who is a better all-around center than Pekovic). Rubio and Martin have played, albeit sparingly. Veterans are useful, but Barea and Martin don't win you a whole lot of games. One is a 6th man and the other is one of the worst defenders in the league. However, any way you look at it the major contributors have been largely different, so trying to tease Love out of the results is near impossible.

THAT SAID

Look at Love's on/off court numbers last year, and it seems like all of those veterans would have been a 20 win team last year, too.

Per 48 (Love on court): +6.1 points
Per 48 (Love off court): -5.6 points

Roughly speaking, +6.1 per 48 is playing like a 55-60 win team.
-5.6 is more like a 20-25 win team.

Go back in time and the results are similar. Go forward in time? Cleveland is 9 points better when Love is in the game (and outscored when he's not).

Love throughout his career makes his teams 8-10 points better when he's in the game than when he's not. I'll take that any day.

[ThePoeticWolf]

Thank You for understanding basketball.  Everyone is looking at Sully and K.O. as some hack of a basketball player.  Sully was a 15 and 9 guy, which is great for a power forward.  Yes he's not putting up Love careers season of 22 and 12.  But give me a true center like a DeAndre Jordan and a true small forward like Leonard.  Adding these two make more sense then Love as a team prospective.  I'm not hating on Love, I just think he's not what the Celtics need, since we need other positions more.  Adding the two I said our starting line up would be great. 

Option A

Center - Jordan
Power Forward - Sully
Small Forward - Leonard
Shooting Guard - Bradley
Point Guard - Smart

Bench would have Thomas, Turner, K.O., Zeller, Resign Crowder and Bass, Pressey, Plus two first rounder. 

Say we sign Love.  Option B/C

Center - Sully or Zeller
Power Forward - Love
Small Forward - Leonard
Shooting Guard - Bradley
Point Guard - Smart

or

Center - Jordan
Power Forward - Love
Small Forward - Turner
Shooting Guard - Bradley
Point Guard - Smart

Bench would have Thomas, Turner, K.O., Zeller , Resign Crowder and Bass, Pressey, Plus two first rounder. 

If you look at this any basketball fan should be able to see from a true basketball prospective not just seeing the name Love, Option A is better then Option B or C

I think ten years ago your Option A is the best.  Today though, with how the league has changed over the last 18 months, I'd rather have that Option B running Steven's offense. 

It's my opinion that the whole 'rim protector' thing is overblown.  Sure, Deandre is an athletic freak who can block 3-4 a night.  But he can't shoot, not even a lick.  Therefore, on offense, he can't space the floor. 

Now contrast that with teams like SA and GS.  They are successful because everyone can shoot, space the floor for their guards to break down defenses.  Not to take anything away from a 36 yo Tim Duncan -- but their lineups don't feature many big-time shot blockers.  Look at what Golden State is doing, starting 6'7" Draymond Green at Center -- not exactly a guy striking fear into opposing guards.  But, it allows them to switch everything on the perimeter and prevent the penetration in the first place.  This is far more effective than getting forced into a mis-match and hoping your 7'er can challenge a shot at the rim once your defense gets exposed.

I understand you saying about the NBA is changing, but Stevens also wants to play an upbeat style.  If this is the case who is more an upbeat player, someone who gets up and down the floor, and gets turnovers and gets transition points. 

As for you saying Jordan can't shot for a [dang], I don't know what you're thinking this counts as.  Let me just throw a stat at you.  This season Jordan FG% .706 that's amazing scores 11.3 a game.  He's not meant to be a scorer, he's a center, rebound, block, put back dunks, 5-10 foot jumpers.  Love FG% .433, 16.5 points a game, yes not number one option, but he shouldn't be your number one scorer.  I'm not hating on Love, but I'm stating he wouldn't be the best fit for Boston right now with our team going forward.  What wins titles, Defense, Love plays NONE. 

To your statement about Green he hardly ever starts at Center.  Bogut is normally the starter.  Bogut averages 1.6 blocks a game.  Can be higher to being a 7 foot center.  Old man Tim Duncan still averaging 1.9 blocks a game.  We'll even put in Green 1.3 blocks a game.  Love is barely at a .5.  What do blocks and defense lead to, points and winning games.  Jordan is only averaging 2.2 blocks a game, but a big centers presence a long changes the game of a team, ask any couch and person who knows basketball. 

Yes, the NBA is leading to more of a guard league, but you can't teach size.  What's the best FG% shot, within 5 feet of the basket and dunking the ball.  Shooters can have off nights a lot more then a center missing dunks.  I will admit Jordan on FT% is horrible, it's half of what Love is.  But the second part to my post, was Leonard because he takes over the scorer and one of the best defenders in the game.  Now with the Celtics with my lineup of Jordan, and Leonard being added to the team instead of Love. 

Jordan is our rim protector, Sully good defender on bigs even though not a shot blocker but great at drawing charges and being a big body, Leonard best defender can guard 1-4 if needed, Bradley and Smart will be the best defending backcourt in the NBA.   

[D.o.s.]

As for you saying Jordan can't shot for a [dang], I don't know what you're thinking this counts as.  Let me just throw a stat at you.  This season Jordan FG% .706 that's amazing scores 11.3 a game.  He's not meant to be a scorer, he's a center, rebound, block, put back dunks, 5-10 foot jumpers.

Teachable Moment: this is a prime way that stats can be used to mislead. Not only are you projecting your own opinions onto the game with "He's not meant to be a scorer, he's a center" (last time I checked, the NBA's all time leading scorer was a center, but we're going to ignore that because "rebound, block, putback dunk"), but his Field Goal percentage comes exclusively at the rim. I don't know what 5-10 foot jumpers you're talking about, because his shot chart* shows that he's taken exactly five of them this year. And he's missed two of those.



http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1102/deandre-jordan/shotchart/ *

[Roy H.]

As for you saying Jordan can't shot for a [dang], I don't know what you're thinking this counts as.  Let me just throw a stat at you.  This season Jordan FG% .706 that's amazing scores 11.3 a game.  He's not meant to be a scorer, he's a center, rebound, block, put back dunks, 5-10 foot jumpers.

Teachable Moment: this is a prime way that stats can be used to mislead. Not only are you projecting your own opinions onto the game with "He's not meant to be a scorer, he's a center" (last time I checked, the NBA's all time leading scorer was a center, but we're going to ignore that because "rebound, block, putback dunk"), but his Field Goal percentage comes exclusively at the rim. I don't know what 5-10 foot jumpers you're talking about, because his shot chart* shows that he's taken exactly five of them this year. And he's missed two of those.



http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1102/deandre-jordan/shotchart/ *

60% on 2PT jumpers?  Unstoppable!

[JohnBoy65]

So for the people that are anti-Love I pose this. Obviously almost everyone here would love to see the Celtics get some combination of Leonard/Gasol/Butler/Jordan/Aldridge. Unfortunately that's probably not realistic at all.

So, if all of our options are off the table and Kevin Love says I will sign here in Boston you say no thank you?

[ThePoeticWolf]

I would say Boston is a more popular place to play than Minny.

 

LA is even more popular and was his home.   Get your tissues.  I will be relieved.

Everyone is looking at Sully and K.O. as some hack of a basketball player.  Sully was a 15 and 9 guy, which is great for a power forward.

  They are not great by any stretch.  Get real, you make them sound like a good players that do not require a certain type of center to cover their lack of athletic ability.   That is not the case.

Thank You for understanding basketball.

Sully was overweight, did not run the court and let his body get the best of him this year.  Even with "the ideal Center"   other teams will pull on out on the perimeter where the center does not matter and drive around him.   When you have a weak link it is targeted in iso plays.   That is basketball.    All they have to do is pull the center out to the top of the key and all the sudden DeAndre Jordan is not as big as help in the low post and they have an iso on a mediocre.      defender.  As for understanding basketball, teams have been doing this for a while now Wolf.

Did you even read what I wrote?  I'm asking seriously because this was a post as a whole.

I didn't say Sully and O.K. were great, I said great as a Power Forward.  This statement is meaning as whole in the NBA, Sully's stats rank up with some of the best at his position. 

Yes, I agree Sully came in over weight this year.  I'm not disagreeing with you.  But he was still effective as a Power Forward, or as the Celtics were trying to use him as an undersized Center.  So by giving him an actually Center who's job is to defend, it would only increase Sully's game, if he comes back wanting to be the best he can.  As for the defense, as I've talked about this team I said putting together would be better then adding just Love.  It gives all you need and takes away what you stated about taking away the Center.  The center becomes the second line of defense with being a rim guard and rebounder.  By having Sully be a PF again gives him the ability to float defend the paint, taking charges as he's good for and being a big body.  Then by having Leonard, Bradley and Smart defending the outside, you're defense would be one of the tops in the league if not the number 1. 

[D.o.s.]

So for the people that are anti-Love I pose this. Obviously almost everyone here would love to see the Celtics get some combination of Leonard/Gasol/Butler/Jordan/Aldridge. Unfortunately that's probably not realistic at all.

So, if all of our options are off the table and Kevin Love says I will sign here in Boston you say no thank you?

For how much and how long?

I'm not excited about signing him to a new-max deal (post cap hike) because I don't think he's worth 30% of our salary space.

[ThePoeticWolf]

As for you saying Jordan can't shot for a [dang], I don't know what you're thinking this counts as.  Let me just throw a stat at you.  This season Jordan FG% .706 that's amazing scores 11.3 a game.  He's not meant to be a scorer, he's a center, rebound, block, put back dunks, 5-10 foot jumpers.

Teachable Moment: this is a prime way that stats can be used to mislead. Not only are you projecting your own opinions onto the game with "He's not meant to be a scorer, he's a center" (last time I checked, the NBA's all time leading scorer was a center, but we're going to ignore that because "rebound, block, putback dunk"), but his Field Goal percentage comes exclusively at the rim. I don't know what 5-10 foot jumpers you're talking about, because his shot chart* shows that he's taken exactly five of them this year. And he's missed two of those.



http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1102/deandre-jordan/shotchart/ *

I use the wrong words in describing.  Yes, the number one scorer in the league is a center.  I should have said he would be our center and not need to be our scorer, as Kevin Love would have to be if we signed him.  As for the 5-10 foot shots I was using it as for any center "normally" there highest percent shots would be within 10 feet of the basket, including dunks and put backs.