Author Topic: Great C's article by Zach Lowe  (Read 23862 times)

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Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2015, 05:18:31 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

That sums it up perfectly there. Philly has four assets right now (Embiid, Noel, Saric and their 2015 1st), no single one of which we could acquire even with our best two assets (a pick and Smart).

Our only edges might be on the sidelines and in the front office. What Hinkie has done so far is the easy part - he hasn't proven (like our GM) that he can take the final steps in assembling a championship team.

Embiid aint so hot of an asset right now.

Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2015, 05:53:40 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

That sums it up perfectly there. Philly has four assets right now (Embiid, Noel, Saric and their 2015 1st), no single one of which we could acquire even with our best two assets (a pick and Smart).

Our only edges might be on the sidelines and in the front office. What Hinkie has done so far is the easy part - he hasn't proven (like our GM) that he can take the final steps in assembling a championship team.

Why do these conversations have to be so ridiculous. Less than a year ago Smart was drafted 6 spots higher than Saric. Saric hasn't played an NBA minute and now we couldn't trade Saric for Smart AND a first round pick? How does that make an ounce of sense?

Well, it's not like Saric has been shooting baskets in his mom's driveway.

http://www.nba.com/sixers/news/141201-transatlantic-tracker

Quote
At 20 years and 7 months old, Saric becomes the youngest Euroleague MVP of the Month ever.

And Smart has been...OK. There are many people here convinced by those very "NBA minutes" you mention that we should have taken another guy, Payton, who was picked pretty close to Saric. So, it's not like opinions don't vary.

You're free to disagree of course (though not about the other three assets - that would make you insane, haha). But I think I've made at least one ounce of sense, and possibly more.

To think a guy has jumped up 8 spots in the lottery AND another first round draft pick on top of that while not playing an NBA minute does not make an ounce of sense without one of the players suffering a severe injury. Trading Smart and a first rounder for Saric right now would set the Celtics back for a year and possibly two. Even the Payton people aren't suggesting Smart and a first rounder for Payton for that matter.

We're probably not going to settle this, but...

1. Saric's draft position reflected the fact that the team drafting him would have to wait two years. We're one year closer to Saric's stated arrival in the NBA.

2. And, the value of a stash is that if he signs in 2016, Saric's rookie contract will run from ages 22-26 instead of 20-24. You are more likely to get good production out of him on the rookie deal, during a time when salaries will be exploding, than you would with an equal (or even slightly better) player who's younger.

3. The 2014 draft pool had a clear top 4, and then flattened out over the next several picks. It's not like the talent available at 6 was viewed as worlds better than it would be at 12.

Anyway I'll go on record that *I* would not trade Smart and a 1st for Saric. But I would bet that's what Hinkie would demand, which is what matters in terms of whether we could acquire him.

The contract length and years is a point to consider, but with cap space being less valuable than ever, not as big a one as it may have been a few years ago. A fair trade would possibly be Saric for Smart straight up. This is really as high as you can go on in trading a guy that has demonstrated an elite NBA skill (defense) versus someone that has not set foot on the court and was a mid first round prospect.

It is extremely hard to judge foreign prospects . He is currently starting alongside former Umass center 32 year old Stephan Lasme who washed out of the NBA 7 years ago after a cup of coffee with the Heat. They have identical averages for points and rebounds. His starting point point guard is former Northeastern Husky Matt Janning who also averages about 10 points in the league.  Stats are definitely not everything, obviously he has way better physical skills and higher upside than these guys, but the performance so far is not mind blowingly awesome.  He is only averaging 9 points and 6 rebounds in this league and starting alongside these guys. 

It also appears that this is not as competitive a league as the one Mirotic just came over from a few years (although if someone can get better research on this stuff and I am wrong I will happily admit it).

We can have a reasonable debate about whether people want to trade smart and a first rounder for Philly's top pick this year (if it is 9 and Smart for number 4 that could be a very fair trade). However, pumping up Saric just cause they drafted him  6 months letter to having an extra first round pick of value is silly.

Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2015, 06:03:33 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lines up pretty well with the (intelligent) consensus on here, this part in particular reads like it could've come right off CB:

Quote
The Celtics are fond of saying they didn’t tank, and while that’s technically true this time around, the big-picture process isn’t so different from the more blatant teardown happening in Philly. Both teams are concerned mostly with acquiring draft picks and tradable assets. Thomas filled a need in Boston, but the Celtics wouldn’t have dealt for him unless they believed his cheapo long-term contract represented a more liquid trade asset than the first-rounder they sent out.

There's a big difference between Boston and Philly's rebuild.  "Be as bad as we possibly can and then get lucky in the draft" is really not at all like "accumulate as many assets as possible for a future move."  I mean, Ainge has brought in Zeller, IT, Jerebko and Crowder while and kept Sully, Bradley and Bass while rebuilding.  Philly has brought in Luc Mbah a Moute and gotten rid of the reigning Rookie of the Year.

Mike
You have to at least be fair to Philly if you are going to talk about their moves.

Mbah a Moute also came with Shved and a 1st for Thad Young

Signed Jakarr Sampson

Acquired Isiah Canaan and a 2nd for McDaniels

Acquired the Lakers pick for MCW

Acquired a 1st (and McGee) for the rights to a foreign player that likely won't play in the NBA

Acquired Ish Smith off of waivers

Acquired Thomas Robinson off of waivers (remember this guy went 5th and Sully went 21st in the same draft for a reason)

Acquired Glenn Robinson III off of waivers

Philly kept Wroten, Thompson, and Sims (all look like decent bench players on contending teams)


Now granted GR3 hasn't played much but Sampson, Smith, T. Robinson, and Canaan are all upgrades from what they had and gave up to acquire.  Wroten looks like a quality bench player on a contending team.  Even Covington, Thompson, and Sims would be quality bench players on a contender.  Mbah a Moute isn't much different than Bass.  And that brings us to Noel who is by far the best prospect (currently playing) and the only guy (currently playing) that could be a top 3 player on a title contender on either team.  And that doesn't account for Embiid, Saric, their pick, and the Lakers pick. 

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

Ish Smith, Jakarr Sampson, Cannaan, Glen Robinson, Shved, Thompson and Sims? How many of those guys are even going to be in the NBA next year or in two years. That is a steaming pile of garbage right there.. Minus TP for listing them like they were assets
One of these guys is Tyler Zeller, the other is Henry Sims

7.9 p, 5.1 r, 1.0 a, 0.7 b, 0.3 s - 50.1% in 21 minutes a game
7.8 p, 5.0 r, 1.1 a, 0.4 b, 0.6 s - 48.0% in 18.8 minutes a game

You call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And age weighs against Zeller as he is a year older than Sims. 


How about we look at Crowder vs. Thompson

7.0 p, 3.1 r, 1.1 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 47.1 (2pt), 39.2 (3pt) in 23.6 minutes a game
5.7 p, 2.8 r, 1.0 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 49.3 (2pt), 32.3 (3pt) in 17.7 minutes a game

Again you call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And again Crowder is a year older than Thompson.


You see that is the thing about fans.  We overrate our own pile of dung and underrate the pile of dung on other teams. 


Of course all that said, Boston has no one like Noel on its roster.  It has no one like Embiid on its roster.  I'm not even sure Boston has a Saric on its roster.
Thompson and Sims are putting up those numbers for one of the worst teams in the league. Someone needs to put up numbers for the sixers.

The numbers you listed doesn't take into account how the team is performing with those players. Zeller and Crowder are much much better than those two because their teams perform better their sixers counterparts when they are in.

The Sixers model will work if Embiid, Saric and the future picks develop but right now the only nba player seeing court time that another team would want is Noel. Hinkie has been willing to trade anyone on his roster. Beside Noel the guys left over are not worth anything in the asset pool that is the NBA.
Zeller was on one of the worst teams in the league for his first few years and he isn't really that much better this year.  And for the record, Boston isn't terrible, but isn't exactly a good team either.  Crowder has virtually the same stats this year as he did for Dallas the last few seasons and he was a rotation player in Dallas i.e. a quality bench player.  Thompson and Sims are pretty much the same. 
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Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2015, 06:56:07 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Lines up pretty well with the (intelligent) consensus on here, this part in particular reads like it could've come right off CB:

Quote
The Celtics are fond of saying they didn’t tank, and while that’s technically true this time around, the big-picture process isn’t so different from the more blatant teardown happening in Philly. Both teams are concerned mostly with acquiring draft picks and tradable assets. Thomas filled a need in Boston, but the Celtics wouldn’t have dealt for him unless they believed his cheapo long-term contract represented a more liquid trade asset than the first-rounder they sent out.

There's a big difference between Boston and Philly's rebuild.  "Be as bad as we possibly can and then get lucky in the draft" is really not at all like "accumulate as many assets as possible for a future move."  I mean, Ainge has brought in Zeller, IT, Jerebko and Crowder while and kept Sully, Bradley and Bass while rebuilding.  Philly has brought in Luc Mbah a Moute and gotten rid of the reigning Rookie of the Year.

Mike
You have to at least be fair to Philly if you are going to talk about their moves.

Mbah a Moute also came with Shved and a 1st for Thad Young

Signed Jakarr Sampson

Acquired Isiah Canaan and a 2nd for McDaniels

Acquired the Lakers pick for MCW

Acquired a 1st (and McGee) for the rights to a foreign player that likely won't play in the NBA

Acquired Ish Smith off of waivers

Acquired Thomas Robinson off of waivers (remember this guy went 5th and Sully went 21st in the same draft for a reason)

Acquired Glenn Robinson III off of waivers

Philly kept Wroten, Thompson, and Sims (all look like decent bench players on contending teams)


Now granted GR3 hasn't played much but Sampson, Smith, T. Robinson, and Canaan are all upgrades from what they had and gave up to acquire.  Wroten looks like a quality bench player on a contending team.  Even Covington, Thompson, and Sims would be quality bench players on a contender.  Mbah a Moute isn't much different than Bass.  And that brings us to Noel who is by far the best prospect (currently playing) and the only guy (currently playing) that could be a top 3 player on a title contender on either team.  And that doesn't account for Embiid, Saric, their pick, and the Lakers pick. 

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

Ish Smith, Jakarr Sampson, Cannaan, Glen Robinson, Shved, Thompson and Sims? How many of those guys are even going to be in the NBA next year or in two years. That is a steaming pile of garbage right there.. Minus TP for listing them like they were assets
One of these guys is Tyler Zeller, the other is Henry Sims

7.9 p, 5.1 r, 1.0 a, 0.7 b, 0.3 s - 50.1% in 21 minutes a game
7.8 p, 5.0 r, 1.1 a, 0.4 b, 0.6 s - 48.0% in 18.8 minutes a game

You call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And age weighs against Zeller as he is a year older than Sims. 


How about we look at Crowder vs. Thompson

7.0 p, 3.1 r, 1.1 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 47.1 (2pt), 39.2 (3pt) in 23.6 minutes a game
5.7 p, 2.8 r, 1.0 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 49.3 (2pt), 32.3 (3pt) in 17.7 minutes a game

Again you call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And again Crowder is a year older than Thompson.


You see that is the thing about fans.  We overrate our own pile of dung and underrate the pile of dung on other teams. 


Of course all that said, Boston has no one like Noel on its roster.  It has no one like Embiid on its roster.  I'm not even sure Boston has a Saric on its roster.
Thompson and Sims are putting up those numbers for one of the worst teams in the league. Someone needs to put up numbers for the sixers.

The numbers you listed doesn't take into account how the team is performing with those players. Zeller and Crowder are much much better than those two because their teams perform better their sixers counterparts when they are in.

The Sixers model will work if Embiid, Saric and the future picks develop but right now the only nba player seeing court time that another team would want is Noel. Hinkie has been willing to trade anyone on his roster. Beside Noel the guys left over are not worth anything in the asset pool that is the NBA.
Zeller was on one of the worst teams in the league for his first few years and he isn't really that much better this year.  And for the record, Boston isn't terrible, but isn't exactly a good team either.  Crowder has virtually the same stats this year as he did for Dallas the last few seasons and he was a rotation player in Dallas i.e. a quality bench player.  Thompson and Sims are pretty much the same.

"After going undrafted in the 2012 NBA draft, Sims joined the Utah Jazz for the Orlando Summer League and Chicago Bulls for the Las Vegas Summer League.[1] On September 10, 2012, he signed with the New York Knicks.[2] However, he was waived on October 27.[3] In November 2012, he was acquired by the Erie BayHawks.[2]

On February 4, 2013, Sims was named to the Prospects All-Star roster for the 2013 NBA D-League All-Star Game.[4]

On March 3, 2013, Sims signed a 10-day contract with the New Orleans Hornets.[5] He appeared in two games for the Hornets recording a total of four points and two rebounds. He was released by the Hornets on March 12, 2013[6] and returned to the BayHawks. On April 1, 2013, his contract was bought out by the BayHawks,[2] and a day later, signed with the Petron Blaze Boosters of the Philippines.[7]

He joined the Charlotte Bobcats for the 2013 NBA Summer League. On September 30, 2013, he signed with the Cleveland Cavaliers.[2] On December 5, 2013, he was assigned to the Canton Charge of the NBA D-League.[8] He was recalled by the Cavaliers on December 9.[9] On December 11, he was reassigned to Canton.[10] He was recalled the next day."

Guys has been cut by half the league, played in the Philippines and spent the majority of his career in the d-league. Thompson is more of the same.

Comparing these guys to Zeller who was a mid first round draft pick that made the all rookie second team (and I don't believe has ever spent a day in the d-league) is a really insulting comparison to Zeller.  Crowder was at least an early second round pick(34) but he started his career starting on a decent team in Dallas. He has spent a few games in the D-league when Dallas had a ton of vets in the frontcourt, but has been a consistent NBA player in his first couple years. Do we really know nothing about stats on bad teams? Remember when Allen Ray was scoring 15 a game for us at the end of a season?

Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2015, 02:35:28 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Adam Morrison was the 3rd pick in the draft and Ben Wallace was undrafted (and cut by the Celtics in summer league because he was "not big enough, tall enough, or strong enough to be an NBA PF", he then went to Italy before the Wizards gave him a roster spot as 12th man). 

Draft position means absolutely nothing when analyzing the quality of the player.
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Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2015, 02:58:36 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Adam Morrison was the 3rd pick in the draft and Ben Wallace was undrafted (and cut by the Celtics in summer league because he was "not big enough, tall enough, or strong enough to be an NBA PF", he then went to Italy before the Wizards gave him a roster spot as 12th man). 

Draft position means absolutely nothing when analyzing the quality of the player.

I don't mean to be a jerk, and I admit this is kind of a jerky statement, but this is probably the most inaccurate and baseless comment I have ever read on this forum. There is overwhelming empirical evidence that where a player is drafted is associated with the quality of his career. The first pick on average has a better career than the 7th and the 7th on average has a better career than the 14th. This is kind of common sense so I am not going to bother pulling out the analysis on it, and I don't honestly believe you actually think that.

Furthermore, the percentage of undrafted NBA players that make it on NBA rosters and contribute is extremely small. You are mentioning a player from 1996 as an argument for this?

The ten highest paid NBA undrafted players as of April 2014 were

Alonso Gee
Gary Neal
Joel Anthony
Udonis Haslem
Timofey Mosgav
Jose Barea
Chuck Hayes
Jose Calderon
Wesley Matthews
Jeremy Lin

Aside from Matthews and Haslem, the only players that have reached the level of playoff contributer were foreign players like Barea, Calderon and Mosgav. Also note this is 10 players for the entire league with some of them being drafted over a decade ago.

The idea that the 76ers are going to discover 4-5 undrafted guys in one season that not only make it in the league, but are good enough to be rotation players on a playoff team (which is what some have argued) would mean the 76ers had far superior scouting abilities than the rest of the league combined for the past decade in one season. It doesn't make any sense. 

Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2015, 04:06:40 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Adam Morrison was the 3rd pick in the draft and Ben Wallace was undrafted (and cut by the Celtics in summer league because he was "not big enough, tall enough, or strong enough to be an NBA PF", he then went to Italy before the Wizards gave him a roster spot as 12th man). 

Draft position means absolutely nothing when analyzing the quality of the player.

I don't mean to be a jerk, and I admit this is kind of a jerky statement, but this is probably the most inaccurate and baseless comment I have ever read on this forum. There is overwhelming empirical evidence that where a player is drafted is associated with the quality of his career. The first pick on average has a better career than the 7th and the 7th on average has a better career than the 14th. This is kind of common sense so I am not going to bother pulling out the analysis on it, and I don't honestly believe you actually think that.

Furthermore, the percentage of undrafted NBA players that make it on NBA rosters and contribute is extremely small. You are mentioning a player from 1996 as an argument for this?

The ten highest paid NBA undrafted players as of April 2014 were

Alonso Gee
Gary Neal
Joel Anthony
Udonis Haslem
Timofey Mosgav
Jose Barea
Chuck Hayes
Jose Calderon
Wesley Matthews
Jeremy Lin

Aside from Matthews and Haslem, the only players that have reached the level of playoff contributer were foreign players like Barea, Calderon and Mosgav. Also note this is 10 players for the entire league with some of them being drafted over a decade ago.

The idea that the 76ers are going to discover 4-5 undrafted guys in one season that not only make it in the league, but are good enough to be rotation players on a playoff team (which is what some have argued) would mean the 76ers had far superior scouting abilities than the rest of the league combined for the past decade in one season. It doesn't make any sense.
Gary Neal played the 6th most minutes for the Spurs in the NBA Finals in the year they lost to the Heat, who sported not only Haslem but Chris Anderson as undrafted players playing major roles on the a title winning team.  Joel Anthony also played in 4 of the 7 games in that series but obviously wasn't what you would call a rotation player by that point, but was definitely in the rotation, you know as a starter, for the Heat's first title run (the loss to Dallas and he had a good sized role in the regular season of the Heat's title winning season over OKC though was just a bench guy for much of the playoffs).  Both San An and Miami also had a number of 2nd round draft picks (many of them very late) playing big roles (and I'm not just talking about the foreign born Manu either).  I didn't go back further than that, but you seem to be mistaken the role of undrafted and 2nd round draft picks have or can have.  Now sure the Ben Wallace's of the world are extremely rare, but it isn't that uncommon to find a quality player that fell through the cracks.  The Hawks this year have 2 undrafted players in their rotation (Bazemore and Antic) and about 5 more that were 2nd round picks (2 of their 4 all stars were mid to late 2nd rounders i.e. Millsap and Korver).

Once players have played for multiple seasons in the league where they were drafted has absolutely no bearing on their skill, ability, or staying power.  The simple reality is that Henry Sims and Tyler Zeller have virtually identical career stats both playing for well below .500 teams.  To call Zeller an asset and Sims garbage is just silly.  Crowder and Thompson similarly have very similar stats, though Crowder at least played on a playoff team in Dallas.  If Crowder could be a bench guy on a playoff team, so could Thompson who you know is a much better outside shooter than Crowder is and who otherwise has a similar stat line. 
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Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2015, 04:51:21 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Adam Morrison was the 3rd pick in the draft and Ben Wallace was undrafted (and cut by the Celtics in summer league because he was "not big enough, tall enough, or strong enough to be an NBA PF", he then went to Italy before the Wizards gave him a roster spot as 12th man). 

Draft position means absolutely nothing when analyzing the quality of the player.

I don't mean to be a jerk, and I admit this is kind of a jerky statement, but this is probably the most inaccurate and baseless comment I have ever read on this forum. There is overwhelming empirical evidence that where a player is drafted is associated with the quality of his career. The first pick on average has a better career than the 7th and the 7th on average has a better career than the 14th. This is kind of common sense so I am not going to bother pulling out the analysis on it, and I don't honestly believe you actually think that.

Furthermore, the percentage of undrafted NBA players that make it on NBA rosters and contribute is extremely small. You are mentioning a player from 1996 as an argument for this?

The ten highest paid NBA undrafted players as of April 2014 were

Alonso Gee
Gary Neal
Joel Anthony
Udonis Haslem
Timofey Mosgav
Jose Barea
Chuck Hayes
Jose Calderon
Wesley Matthews
Jeremy Lin

Aside from Matthews and Haslem, the only players that have reached the level of playoff contributer were foreign players like Barea, Calderon and Mosgav. Also note this is 10 players for the entire league with some of them being drafted over a decade ago.

The idea that the 76ers are going to discover 4-5 undrafted guys in one season that not only make it in the league, but are good enough to be rotation players on a playoff team (which is what some have argued) would mean the 76ers had far superior scouting abilities than the rest of the league combined for the past decade in one season. It doesn't make any sense.
Gary Neal played the 6th most minutes for the Spurs in the NBA Finals in the year they lost to the Heat, who sported not only Haslem but Chris Anderson as undrafted players playing major roles on the a title winning team.  Joel Anthony also played in 4 of the 7 games in that series but obviously wasn't what you would call a rotation player by that point, but was definitely in the rotation, you know as a starter, for the Heat's first title run (the loss to Dallas and he had a good sized role in the regular season of the Heat's title winning season over OKC though was just a bench guy for much of the playoffs).  Both San An and Miami also had a number of 2nd round draft picks (many of them very late) playing big roles (and I'm not just talking about the foreign born Manu either).  I didn't go back further than that, but you seem to be mistaken the role of undrafted and 2nd round draft picks have or can have.  Now sure the Ben Wallace's of the world are extremely rare, but it isn't that uncommon to find a quality player that fell through the cracks.  The Hawks this year have 2 undrafted players in their rotation (Bazemore and Antic) and about 5 more that were 2nd round picks (2 of their 4 all stars were mid to late 2nd rounders i.e. Millsap and Korver).

Once players have played for multiple seasons in the league where they were drafted has absolutely no bearing on their skill, ability, or staying power.  The simple reality is that Henry Sims and Tyler Zeller have virtually identical career stats both playing for well below .500 teams.  To call Zeller an asset and Sims garbage is just silly.  Crowder and Thompson similarly have very similar stats, though Crowder at least played on a playoff team in Dallas.  If Crowder could be a bench guy on a playoff team, so could Thompson who you know is a much better outside shooter than Crowder is and who otherwise has a similar stat line.

I guess you are actually serious. First off I was discussing undrafted players cause there really just aren't that many ones that make it the league and play a serious role. Mentioning a 34 year old (Haslem) and a 36 year old (Anderson) as two of the more prominent examples of undrafted players playing on playoff teams should show you how rare it actually is. Obviously I am not saying 2nd rounders don't make it in the league. Half the players drafted are in the second round, obviously there are going to be a good amount of second rounders that are good and occasionally even all stars.

So that nonsense aside, Yes, the Hawks have two undrafted players that are in their rotation. The warriors have zero, the grizzlies have zero, the clippers have zero. The Cavs have 1 (an international player Mosgov). This is on their entire roster with players coming out over the last 12 years.

Aside from a few players that occasionally come over as free agents from foreign leagues, undrafted players have a very small mark on the league. Again, the idea that Philadelphia has somehow found 4-5 of these guys (Covington, Sims, Thompson and Sampson have all been mentioned in this thread) in one year would be completely unprecedented in the recent NBA history.

The odds are overwhelming that these guys will be out of the league in a few years, if not next year. Perhaps Covington is actually a find. Stat's on a team like Philly are pretty worthless so comparing Zeller and Sims stats is a bit unfair. I don't really understand why you are even making these arguments.

Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2015, 05:04:12 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think the core of his argument is here:
Quote
Once players have played for multiple seasons in the league where they were drafted has absolutely no bearing on their skill, ability, or staying power.

Which seems to be a fairly uncontroversial statement to me.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2015, 05:16:25 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I think the core of his argument is here:
Quote
Once players have played for multiple seasons in the league where they were drafted has absolutely no bearing on their skill, ability, or staying power.

Which seems to be a fairly uncontroversial statement to me.

That's not the case with the 76ers players though.

Covington took 14 shots in the NBA before this year and has one year of real experience playing for the 76ers

Thompson has played two seasons on a team that wins less than 25 games a year has been called a d-league team
 
Sims has played two seasons on a team that wins less than 25 games a year and has been called a d-league team

This is Sampsons first year in the league

I would agree if these guys were around for 4-6 years and had played minutes on actual competitive teams the fact they were undrafted would be irrelevant. However, they haven't. So you try to look at objectively and say what are the chances the 76ers discovered 4 legit undrafted players in a two year period when a lot of teams don't have a single one. Those chances are extremely remote.



Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2015, 05:22:47 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I think the core of his argument is here:
Quote
Once players have played for multiple seasons in the league where they were drafted has absolutely no bearing on their skill, ability, or staying power.

Which seems to be a fairly uncontroversial statement to me.
Yes.  That is my point.  He also keeps saying Philly found all these players in one year, which also isn't true as Sampson is the only rookie.  Sims and Covington played for other NBA teams before ending up in Philly and Thompson is now in his second year for the team (so is Sims).  These aren't 10 day contract players that won't be back.  These are guys that have firmly established themselves as NBA level players over the course of time and extending into multiple seasons. 

And I'm not sure I'd actually call Zeller's teams better than Sims to the point it would make a difference (i.e. they were all bad teams).  I mean the Cavs weren't exactly world beaters and sure Boston is better than Philly, but I don't think anyone would call Boston a good team.   

I mean here is a description of a player.  You tell me if you think he can stick as a quality bench player on a good team.

6'8" SG/SF, 23 years old
141 games with 63 starts about 24 minutes a game
39.2% from three on just under 3 shots a game
47.1% from two on about 4 and a half shots a game
7 points over 3 boards and an assist
Doesn't turn ball over or commit fouls at a significant rate

To me that says classic rotation player.  A guy that is going to come in, hit some open shots and generally play ok all around basketball.

Obviously that is Hollis Thompson, but it also pretty much fits the description of Kyle Korver his first two years in the league (also on Philly no less).  I have no idea if Thompson will turn into a Korver level player, I'm just pointing out the similarity.
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Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2015, 05:42:37 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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Dear God, this is horrifying. When Sixers fans come on here and say our four best assets are all better than anything you have, they have a legit argument. I think Philly and Boston will be interesting to compare for the next decades as they took such different roots in the rebuild.

But when you start acting like Jakarr something or other and Henry Sims and Ish Smith...Ish Smith, and Isiah Canaan are worth anything in the whole world you lose all, and I mean all credibility. Go back and look at any big time tank operation and you will see a bunch of guys putting up reasonable stats, because someone has got to put the ball in the basket. Lets look at last year. Evan Turner and MCW put up great stats for philly, better stats than anyone that you guys are touting as hidden gems. Since then it has been discovered that these players are not good.

STOP BONING PHILLLY!!!!*

When discussing Embiid, Noel, a top5 pick, and Saric boning is permitted, but not when you are talking about ish Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ing smith

Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2015, 05:43:38 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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I think the core of his argument is here:
Quote
Once players have played for multiple seasons in the league where they were drafted has absolutely no bearing on their skill, ability, or staying power.

Which seems to be a fairly uncontroversial statement to me.
Yes.  That is my point.  He also keeps saying Philly found all these players in one year, which also isn't true as Sampson is the only rookie.  Sims and Covington played for other NBA teams before ending up in Philly and Thompson is now in his second year for the team (so is Sims).  These aren't 10 day contract players that won't be back.  These are guys that have firmly established themselves as NBA level players over the course of time and extending into multiple seasons. 

And I'm not sure I'd actually call Zeller's teams better than Sims to the point it would make a difference (i.e. they were all bad teams).  I mean the Cavs weren't exactly world beaters and sure Boston is better than Philly, but I don't think anyone would call Boston a good team.   

I mean here is a description of a player.  You tell me if you think he can stick as a quality bench player on a good team.

6'8" SG/SF, 23 years old
141 games with 63 starts about 24 minutes a game
39.2% from three on just under 3 shots a game
47.1% from two on about 4 and a half shots a game
7 points over 3 boards and an assist
Doesn't turn ball over or commit fouls at a significant rate

To me that says classic rotation player.  A guy that is going to come in, hit some open shots and generally play ok all around basketball.

Obviously that is Hollis Thompson, but it also pretty much fits the description of Kyle Korver his first two years in the league (also on Philly no less).  I have no idea if Thompson will turn into a Korver level player, I'm just pointing out the similarity.
When Philly plays the Hawks the Hawks sit the whole [dang] starting lineup. Thats the difference between Tyler Zeller and Henry Sims

Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2015, 05:43:39 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I think the core of his argument is here:
Quote
Once players have played for multiple seasons in the league where they were drafted has absolutely no bearing on their skill, ability, or staying power.

Which seems to be a fairly uncontroversial statement to me.
Yes.  That is my point.  He also keeps saying Philly found all these players in one year, which also isn't true as Sampson is the only rookie.  Sims and Covington played for other NBA teams before ending up in Philly and Thompson is now in his second year for the team (so is Sims).  These aren't 10 day contract players that won't be back.  These are guys that have firmly established themselves as NBA level players over the course of time and extending into multiple seasons. 

And I'm not sure I'd actually call Zeller's teams better than Sims to the point it would make a difference (i.e. they were all bad teams).  I mean the Cavs weren't exactly world beaters and sure Boston is better than Philly, but I don't think anyone would call Boston a good team.   

I mean here is a description of a player.  You tell me if you think he can stick as a quality bench player on a good team.

6'8" SG/SF, 23 years old
141 games with 63 starts about 24 minutes a game
39.2% from three on just under 3 shots a game
47.1% from two on about 4 and a half shots a game
7 points over 3 boards and an assist
Doesn't turn ball over or commit fouls at a significant rate

To me that says classic rotation player.  A guy that is going to come in, hit some open shots and generally play ok all around basketball.

Obviously that is Hollis Thompson, but it also pretty much fits the description of Kyle Korver his first two years in the league (also on Philly no less).  I have no idea if Thompson will turn into a Korver level player, I'm just pointing out the similarity.

Pretty blatant stretching of facts here. Like I said Covington took 14 shots in the NBA before this year, all with the Rockets last year. Sims played a grant total of 160 minutes for teams besides Philly in 2012-2014. The reality is the only team these guys have ever played any sort of half meaningful role for is Philly. Also there is a difference between playing on a bad team like the Celtics and a horrible team like the 76ers.

The Celtics have guys are proven NBA players (Bass, Humphries, Bradley, Thomas, Sullinger, Rondo, Green etc logging significant minutes the last two years) and are playing close in almost every game (point differential of -.8). The 76ers have only one player we could guarantee will be in the NBA right now barring an injury and that Noel. They also routinely get blown out and have a point differential of almost 9. The stats for 76ers players are pretty meaningless and it is pretty week to not acknowledge that.

Re: Great C's article by Zach Lowe
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2015, 05:45:17 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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How is Philly so [dang] terrible is all these guys are so Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ing good?