Great C's article by Zach Lowe

[D.o.s.]

Lines up pretty well with the (intelligent) consensus on here, this part in particular reads like it could've come right off CB:

The Celtics are fond of saying they didn’t tank, and while that’s technically true this time around, the big-picture process isn’t so different from the more blatant teardown happening in Philly. Both teams are concerned mostly with acquiring draft picks and tradable assets. Thomas filled a need in Boston, but the Celtics wouldn’t have dealt for him unless they believed his cheapo long-term contract represented a more liquid trade asset than the first-rounder they sent out.

There's a big difference between Boston and Philly's rebuild.  "Be as bad as we possibly can and then get lucky in the draft" is really not at all like "accumulate as many assets as possible for a future move."  I mean, Ainge has brought in Zeller, IT, Jerebko and Crowder while and kept Sully, Bradley and Bass while rebuilding.  Philly has brought in Luc Mbah a Moute and gotten rid of the reigning Rookie of the Year.

Mike

Lowe says as much in the part you didn't quote, and I think we're all in agreement here. The bolded bit was mostly to illustrate a rationale behind the Thomas trade that doesn't get a whole lot of play around these parts, and perhaps it should.

[Moranis]

Lines up pretty well with the (intelligent) consensus on here, this part in particular reads like it could've come right off CB:

The Celtics are fond of saying they didn’t tank, and while that’s technically true this time around, the big-picture process isn’t so different from the more blatant teardown happening in Philly. Both teams are concerned mostly with acquiring draft picks and tradable assets. Thomas filled a need in Boston, but the Celtics wouldn’t have dealt for him unless they believed his cheapo long-term contract represented a more liquid trade asset than the first-rounder they sent out.

There's a big difference between Boston and Philly's rebuild.  "Be as bad as we possibly can and then get lucky in the draft" is really not at all like "accumulate as many assets as possible for a future move."  I mean, Ainge has brought in Zeller, IT, Jerebko and Crowder while and kept Sully, Bradley and Bass while rebuilding.  Philly has brought in Luc Mbah a Moute and gotten rid of the reigning Rookie of the Year.

Mike

You have to at least be fair to Philly if you are going to talk about their moves.

Mbah a Moute also came with Shved and a 1st for Thad Young

Signed Jakarr Sampson

Acquired Isiah Canaan and a 2nd for McDaniels

Acquired the Lakers pick for MCW

Acquired a 1st (and McGee) for the rights to a foreign player that likely won't play in the NBA

Acquired Ish Smith off of waivers

Acquired Thomas Robinson off of waivers (remember this guy went 5th and Sully went 21st in the same draft for a reason)

Acquired Glenn Robinson III off of waivers

Philly kept Wroten, Thompson, and Sims (all look like decent bench players on contending teams)

Now granted GR3 hasn't played much but Sampson, Smith, T. Robinson, and Canaan are all upgrades from what they had and gave up to acquire.  Wroten looks like a quality bench player on a contending team.  Even Covington, Thompson, and Sims would be quality bench players on a contender.  Mbah a Moute isn't much different than Bass.  And that brings us to Noel who is by far the best prospect (currently playing) and the only guy (currently playing) that could be a top 3 player on a title contender on either team.  And that doesn't account for Embiid, Saric, their pick, and the Lakers pick. 

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential. 

[celticsclay]

Lines up pretty well with the (intelligent) consensus on here, this part in particular reads like it could've come right off CB:

The Celtics are fond of saying they didn’t tank, and while that’s technically true this time around, the big-picture process isn’t so different from the more blatant teardown happening in Philly. Both teams are concerned mostly with acquiring draft picks and tradable assets. Thomas filled a need in Boston, but the Celtics wouldn’t have dealt for him unless they believed his cheapo long-term contract represented a more liquid trade asset than the first-rounder they sent out.

There's a big difference between Boston and Philly's rebuild.  "Be as bad as we possibly can and then get lucky in the draft" is really not at all like "accumulate as many assets as possible for a future move."  I mean, Ainge has brought in Zeller, IT, Jerebko and Crowder while and kept Sully, Bradley and Bass while rebuilding.  Philly has brought in Luc Mbah a Moute and gotten rid of the reigning Rookie of the Year.

Mike

You have to at least be fair to Philly if you are going to talk about their moves.

Mbah a Moute also came with Shved and a 1st for Thad Young

Signed Jakarr Sampson

Acquired Isiah Canaan and a 2nd for McDaniels

Acquired the Lakers pick for MCW

Acquired a 1st (and McGee) for the rights to a foreign player that likely won't play in the NBA

Acquired Ish Smith off of waivers

Acquired Thomas Robinson off of waivers (remember this guy went 5th and Sully went 21st in the same draft for a reason)

Acquired Glenn Robinson III off of waivers

Philly kept Wroten, Thompson, and Sims (all look like decent bench players on contending teams)

Now granted GR3 hasn't played much but Sampson, Smith, T. Robinson, and Canaan are all upgrades from what they had and gave up to acquire.  Wroten looks like a quality bench player on a contending team.  Even Covington, Thompson, and Sims would be quality bench players on a contender.  Mbah a Moute isn't much different than Bass.  And that brings us to Noel who is by far the best prospect (currently playing) and the only guy (currently playing) that could be a top 3 player on a title contender on either team.  And that doesn't account for Embiid, Saric, their pick, and the Lakers pick. 

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

Ish Smith, Jakarr Sampson, Cannaan, Glen Robinson, Shved, Thompson and Sims? How many of those guys are even going to be in the NBA next year or in two years. That is a steaming pile of garbage right there.. Minus TP for listing them like they were assets

[Moranis]

Lines up pretty well with the (intelligent) consensus on here, this part in particular reads like it could've come right off CB:

The Celtics are fond of saying they didn’t tank, and while that’s technically true this time around, the big-picture process isn’t so different from the more blatant teardown happening in Philly. Both teams are concerned mostly with acquiring draft picks and tradable assets. Thomas filled a need in Boston, but the Celtics wouldn’t have dealt for him unless they believed his cheapo long-term contract represented a more liquid trade asset than the first-rounder they sent out.

There's a big difference between Boston and Philly's rebuild.  "Be as bad as we possibly can and then get lucky in the draft" is really not at all like "accumulate as many assets as possible for a future move."  I mean, Ainge has brought in Zeller, IT, Jerebko and Crowder while and kept Sully, Bradley and Bass while rebuilding.  Philly has brought in Luc Mbah a Moute and gotten rid of the reigning Rookie of the Year.

Mike

You have to at least be fair to Philly if you are going to talk about their moves.

Mbah a Moute also came with Shved and a 1st for Thad Young

Signed Jakarr Sampson

Acquired Isiah Canaan and a 2nd for McDaniels

Acquired the Lakers pick for MCW

Acquired a 1st (and McGee) for the rights to a foreign player that likely won't play in the NBA

Acquired Ish Smith off of waivers

Acquired Thomas Robinson off of waivers (remember this guy went 5th and Sully went 21st in the same draft for a reason)

Acquired Glenn Robinson III off of waivers

Philly kept Wroten, Thompson, and Sims (all look like decent bench players on contending teams)

Now granted GR3 hasn't played much but Sampson, Smith, T. Robinson, and Canaan are all upgrades from what they had and gave up to acquire.  Wroten looks like a quality bench player on a contending team.  Even Covington, Thompson, and Sims would be quality bench players on a contender.  Mbah a Moute isn't much different than Bass.  And that brings us to Noel who is by far the best prospect (currently playing) and the only guy (currently playing) that could be a top 3 player on a title contender on either team.  And that doesn't account for Embiid, Saric, their pick, and the Lakers pick. 

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

Ish Smith, Jakarr Sampson, Cannaan, Glen Robinson, Shved, Thompson and Sims? How many of those guys are even going to be in the NBA next year or in two years. That is a steaming pile of garbage right there.. Minus TP for listing them like they were assets

One of these guys is Tyler Zeller, the other is Henry Sims

7.9 p, 5.1 r, 1.0 a, 0.7 b, 0.3 s - 50.1% in 21 minutes a game
7.8 p, 5.0 r, 1.1 a, 0.4 b, 0.6 s - 48.0% in 18.8 minutes a game

You call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And age weighs against Zeller as he is a year older than Sims. 


How about we look at Crowder vs. Thompson

7.0 p, 3.1 r, 1.1 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 47.1 (2pt), 39.2 (3pt) in 23.6 minutes a game
5.7 p, 2.8 r, 1.0 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 49.3 (2pt), 32.3 (3pt) in 17.7 minutes a game

Again you call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And again Crowder is a year older than Thompson.


You see that is the thing about fans.  We overrate our own pile of dung and underrate the pile of dung on other teams. 


Of course all that said, Boston has no one like Noel on its roster.  It has no one like Embiid on its roster.  I'm not even sure Boston has a Saric on its roster. 

[Evantime34]

Lines up pretty well with the (intelligent) consensus on here, this part in particular reads like it could've come right off CB:

The Celtics are fond of saying they didn’t tank, and while that’s technically true this time around, the big-picture process isn’t so different from the more blatant teardown happening in Philly. Both teams are concerned mostly with acquiring draft picks and tradable assets. Thomas filled a need in Boston, but the Celtics wouldn’t have dealt for him unless they believed his cheapo long-term contract represented a more liquid trade asset than the first-rounder they sent out.

There's a big difference between Boston and Philly's rebuild.  "Be as bad as we possibly can and then get lucky in the draft" is really not at all like "accumulate as many assets as possible for a future move."  I mean, Ainge has brought in Zeller, IT, Jerebko and Crowder while and kept Sully, Bradley and Bass while rebuilding.  Philly has brought in Luc Mbah a Moute and gotten rid of the reigning Rookie of the Year.

Mike

You have to at least be fair to Philly if you are going to talk about their moves.

Mbah a Moute also came with Shved and a 1st for Thad Young

Signed Jakarr Sampson

Acquired Isiah Canaan and a 2nd for McDaniels

Acquired the Lakers pick for MCW

Acquired a 1st (and McGee) for the rights to a foreign player that likely won't play in the NBA

Acquired Ish Smith off of waivers

Acquired Thomas Robinson off of waivers (remember this guy went 5th and Sully went 21st in the same draft for a reason)

Acquired Glenn Robinson III off of waivers

Philly kept Wroten, Thompson, and Sims (all look like decent bench players on contending teams)

Now granted GR3 hasn't played much but Sampson, Smith, T. Robinson, and Canaan are all upgrades from what they had and gave up to acquire.  Wroten looks like a quality bench player on a contending team.  Even Covington, Thompson, and Sims would be quality bench players on a contender.  Mbah a Moute isn't much different than Bass.  And that brings us to Noel who is by far the best prospect (currently playing) and the only guy (currently playing) that could be a top 3 player on a title contender on either team.  And that doesn't account for Embiid, Saric, their pick, and the Lakers pick. 

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

Ish Smith, Jakarr Sampson, Cannaan, Glen Robinson, Shved, Thompson and Sims? How many of those guys are even going to be in the NBA next year or in two years. That is a steaming pile of garbage right there.. Minus TP for listing them like they were assets

One of these guys is Tyler Zeller, the other is Henry Sims

7.9 p, 5.1 r, 1.0 a, 0.7 b, 0.3 s - 50.1% in 21 minutes a game
7.8 p, 5.0 r, 1.1 a, 0.4 b, 0.6 s - 48.0% in 18.8 minutes a game

You call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And age weighs against Zeller as he is a year older than Sims. 


How about we look at Crowder vs. Thompson

7.0 p, 3.1 r, 1.1 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 47.1 (2pt), 39.2 (3pt) in 23.6 minutes a game
5.7 p, 2.8 r, 1.0 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 49.3 (2pt), 32.3 (3pt) in 17.7 minutes a game

Again you call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And again Crowder is a year older than Thompson.


You see that is the thing about fans.  We overrate our own pile of dung and underrate the pile of dung on other teams. 


Of course all that said, Boston has no one like Noel on its roster.  It has no one like Embiid on its roster.  I'm not even sure Boston has a Saric on its roster.

Thompson and Sims are putting up those numbers for one of the worst teams in the league. Someone needs to put up numbers for the sixers.

The numbers you listed doesn't take into account how the team is performing with those players. Zeller and Crowder are much much better than those two because their teams perform better their sixers counterparts when they are in.

The Sixers model will work if Embiid, Saric and the future picks develop but right now the only nba player seeing court time that another team would want is Noel. Hinkie has been willing to trade anyone on his roster. Beside Noel the guys left over are not worth anything in the asset pool that is the NBA.

[celticsclay]

Lines up pretty well with the (intelligent) consensus on here, this part in particular reads like it could've come right off CB:

The Celtics are fond of saying they didn’t tank, and while that’s technically true this time around, the big-picture process isn’t so different from the more blatant teardown happening in Philly. Both teams are concerned mostly with acquiring draft picks and tradable assets. Thomas filled a need in Boston, but the Celtics wouldn’t have dealt for him unless they believed his cheapo long-term contract represented a more liquid trade asset than the first-rounder they sent out.

There's a big difference between Boston and Philly's rebuild.  "Be as bad as we possibly can and then get lucky in the draft" is really not at all like "accumulate as many assets as possible for a future move."  I mean, Ainge has brought in Zeller, IT, Jerebko and Crowder while and kept Sully, Bradley and Bass while rebuilding.  Philly has brought in Luc Mbah a Moute and gotten rid of the reigning Rookie of the Year.

Mike

You have to at least be fair to Philly if you are going to talk about their moves.

Mbah a Moute also came with Shved and a 1st for Thad Young

Signed Jakarr Sampson

Acquired Isiah Canaan and a 2nd for McDaniels

Acquired the Lakers pick for MCW

Acquired a 1st (and McGee) for the rights to a foreign player that likely won't play in the NBA

Acquired Ish Smith off of waivers

Acquired Thomas Robinson off of waivers (remember this guy went 5th and Sully went 21st in the same draft for a reason)

Acquired Glenn Robinson III off of waivers

Philly kept Wroten, Thompson, and Sims (all look like decent bench players on contending teams)

Now granted GR3 hasn't played much but Sampson, Smith, T. Robinson, and Canaan are all upgrades from what they had and gave up to acquire.  Wroten looks like a quality bench player on a contending team.  Even Covington, Thompson, and Sims would be quality bench players on a contender. Mbah a Moute isn't much different than Bass.  And that brings us to Noel who is by far the best prospect (currently playing) and the only guy (currently playing) that could be a top 3 player on a title contender on either team.  And that doesn't account for Embiid, Saric, their pick, and the Lakers pick. 

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

Ish Smith, Jakarr Sampson, Cannaan, Glen Robinson, Shved, Thompson and Sims? How many of those guys are even going to be in the NBA next year or in two years. That is a steaming pile of garbage right there.. Minus TP for listing them like they were assets

One of these guys is Tyler Zeller, the other is Henry Sims

7.9 p, 5.1 r, 1.0 a, 0.7 b, 0.3 s - 50.1% in 21 minutes a game
7.8 p, 5.0 r, 1.1 a, 0.4 b, 0.6 s - 48.0% in 18.8 minutes a game

You call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And age weighs against Zeller as he is a year older than Sims. 


How about we look at Crowder vs. Thompson

7.0 p, 3.1 r, 1.1 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 47.1 (2pt), 39.2 (3pt) in 23.6 minutes a game
5.7 p, 2.8 r, 1.0 a, 0.8 s, 0.3 b - 49.3 (2pt), 32.3 (3pt) in 17.7 minutes a game

Again you call one of these a real prospect and yet think the other one will be out of the league in a year.  And again Crowder is a year older than Thompson.


You see that is the thing about fans.  We overrate our own pile of dung and underrate the pile of dung on other teams. 


Of course all that said, Boston has no one like Noel on its roster.  It has no one like Embiid on its roster.  I'm not even sure Boston has a Saric on its roster.

Thompson and Sims are putting up those numbers for one of the worst teams in the league. Someone needs to put up numbers for the sixers.

The numbers you listed doesn't take into account how the team is performing with those players. Zeller and Crowder are much much better than those two because their teams perform better their sixers counterparts when they are in.

The Sixers model will work if Embiid, Saric and the future picks develop but right now the only nba player seeing court time that another team would want is Noel. Hinkie has been willing to trade anyone on his roster. Beside Noel the guys left over are not worth anything in the asset pool that is the NBA.

There is a reason there is a phrase "good stats on a bad team."
For the record I also don't think I said anything about Zeller. These guys were all undrafted or d league players for a reason. Maybe one of them turns out to be a find, but the rest of them, like I said will be out of the league in a year or two.

You are claiming that Covington, Sims and Thompson would be quality bench players on a contender? If they have that plus all the other pieces you mentioned and Noel why have they only won 18 games? You from libertyballers?

[D.o.s.]

I think you misread that post, clay. Check the last paragraph.

[Boris Badenov]

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

That sums it up perfectly there. Philly has four assets right now (Embiid, Noel, Saric and their 2015 1st), no single one of which we could acquire even with our best two assets (a pick and Smart).

Our only edges might be on the sidelines and in the front office. What Hinkie has done so far is the easy part - he hasn't proven (like our GM) that he can take the final steps in assembling a championship team.

[celticsclay]

I think you misread that post, clay. Check the last paragraph.

The thread got super confusing I was responding to the poster that said Covington, Sims and Thompson would be bench players on contending teams. I bolded where it was said.

[D.o.s.]

Aha. Makes sense now.

[celticsclay]

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

That sums it up perfectly there. Philly has four assets right now (Embiid, Noel, Saric and their 2015 1st), no single one of which we could acquire even with our best two assets (a pick and Smart).

Our only edges might be on the sidelines and in the front office. What Hinkie has done so far is the easy part - he hasn't proven (like our GM) that he can take the final steps in assembling a championship team.

Why do these conversations have to be so ridiculous. Less than a year ago Smart was drafted 6 spots higher than Saric. Saric hasn't played an NBA minute and now we couldn't trade Saric for Smart AND a first round pick? How does that make an ounce of sense?

[Boris Badenov]

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

That sums it up perfectly there. Philly has four assets right now (Embiid, Noel, Saric and their 2015 1st), no single one of which we could acquire even with our best two assets (a pick and Smart).

Our only edges might be on the sidelines and in the front office. What Hinkie has done so far is the easy part - he hasn't proven (like our GM) that he can take the final steps in assembling a championship team.

Why do these conversations have to be so ridiculous. Less than a year ago Smart was drafted 6 spots higher than Saric. Saric hasn't played an NBA minute and now we couldn't trade Saric for Smart AND a first round pick? How does that make an ounce of sense?

Well, it's not like Saric has been shooting baskets in his mom's driveway.

http://www.nba.com/sixers/news/141201-transatlantic-tracker

At 20 years and 7 months old, Saric becomes the youngest Euroleague MVP of the Month ever.

And Smart has been...OK. There are many people here convinced by those very "NBA minutes" you mention that we should have taken another guy, Payton, who was picked pretty close to Saric. So, it's not like opinions don't vary.

You're free to disagree of course (though not about the other three assets - that would make you insane, haha). But I think I've made at least one ounce of sense, and possibly more.

[celticsclay]

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

That sums it up perfectly there. Philly has four assets right now (Embiid, Noel, Saric and their 2015 1st), no single one of which we could acquire even with our best two assets (a pick and Smart).

Our only edges might be on the sidelines and in the front office. What Hinkie has done so far is the easy part - he hasn't proven (like our GM) that he can take the final steps in assembling a championship team.

Why do these conversations have to be so ridiculous. Less than a year ago Smart was drafted 6 spots higher than Saric. Saric hasn't played an NBA minute and now we couldn't trade Saric for Smart AND a first round pick? How does that make an ounce of sense?

Well, it's not like Saric has been shooting baskets in his mom's driveway.

http://www.nba.com/sixers/news/141201-transatlantic-tracker

At 20 years and 7 months old, Saric becomes the youngest Euroleague MVP of the Month ever.

And Smart has been...OK. There are many people here convinced by those very "NBA minutes" you mention that we should have taken another guy, Payton, who was picked pretty close to Saric. So, it's not like opinions don't vary.

You're free to disagree of course (though not about the other three assets - that would make you insane, haha). But I think I've made at least one ounce of sense, and possibly more.

To think a guy has jumped up 8 spots in the lottery AND another first round draft pick on top of that while not playing an NBA minute does not make an ounce of sense without one of the players suffering a severe injury. Trading Smart and a first rounder for Saric right now would set the Celtics back for a year and possibly two. Even the Payton people aren't suggesting Smart and a first rounder for Payton for that matter.

[Boris Badenov]

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

That sums it up perfectly there. Philly has four assets right now (Embiid, Noel, Saric and their 2015 1st), no single one of which we could acquire even with our best two assets (a pick and Smart).

Our only edges might be on the sidelines and in the front office. What Hinkie has done so far is the easy part - he hasn't proven (like our GM) that he can take the final steps in assembling a championship team.

Why do these conversations have to be so ridiculous. Less than a year ago Smart was drafted 6 spots higher than Saric. Saric hasn't played an NBA minute and now we couldn't trade Saric for Smart AND a first round pick? How does that make an ounce of sense?

Well, it's not like Saric has been shooting baskets in his mom's driveway.

http://www.nba.com/sixers/news/141201-transatlantic-tracker

At 20 years and 7 months old, Saric becomes the youngest Euroleague MVP of the Month ever.

And Smart has been...OK. There are many people here convinced by those very "NBA minutes" you mention that we should have taken another guy, Payton, who was picked pretty close to Saric. So, it's not like opinions don't vary.

You're free to disagree of course (though not about the other three assets - that would make you insane, haha). But I think I've made at least one ounce of sense, and possibly more.

To think a guy has jumped up 8 spots in the lottery AND another first round draft pick on top of that while not playing an NBA minute does not make an ounce of sense without one of the players suffering a severe injury. Trading Smart and a first rounder for Saric right now would set the Celtics back for a year and possibly two. Even the Payton people aren't suggesting Smart and a first rounder for Payton for that matter.

We're probably not going to settle this, but...

1. Saric's draft position reflected the fact that the team drafting him would have to wait two years. We're one year closer to Saric's stated arrival in the NBA.

2. And, the value of a stash is that if he signs in 2016, Saric's rookie contract will run from ages 22-26 instead of 20-24. You are more likely to get good production out of him on the rookie deal, during a time when salaries will be exploding, than you would with an equal (or even slightly better) player who's younger.

3. The 2014 draft pool had a clear top 4, and then flattened out over the next several picks. It's not like the talent available at 6 was viewed as worlds better than it would be at 12.

Anyway I'll go on record that *I* would not trade Smart and a 1st for Saric. But I would bet that's what Hinkie would demand, which is what matters in terms of whether we could acquire him.

[MBunge]

Philadelphia has significantly better assets than Boston and perhaps even more critical has players or assets with SIGNIFICANTLY more high end potential.

Saric is not better than Smart or Sully as far as assets go.  He was drafted after Nik Stauksas and Noah Vonleh and is currently averaging 10 pts and 5 boards in Europe.  Heck, I'm not sure he's a better asset than KO.

Embiid has a higher ceiling than anyone on Boston's roster.  He could also be a bust.

Noel's potential is greatly limited by how much he sucks on offense.

And Boston has, essentially, three unprotected 1st rounders coming from Brooklyn.  That's certainly better than one pick from the Lakers that can't be better than #6 this year.

Mike