Author Topic: One final point on Tanking  (Read 4641 times)

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Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2015, 05:28:26 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Also, talking trash about someone's defense... when that player plays better defense than he does.  ::)
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2015, 05:33:05 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I guess I don't really know what to think of Turner as a person. I personally put some stock in the fact that some members of the media, CBS and his current teammates do seem to like him.

I realize he has said and done some really jerky things in the past and I have had read the Titus article that DOS referenced. I think this has gotten a little off topic specifically focusing on Turner.

The larger point I was trying to make is that there are 9 games left, we are probably going to win a few more games regardless of whether we as fans want them to or not, because the team plays real hard and several of our opponents will have questionable starting lineups or motivation to win.

I also wanted to point out that other teams are in the exact same position as us, with their GMs and Coaches weighing the benefits of an 8th seed in the playoffs versus a lottery pick. This debate is more pronounced in a place like Miami where the debate is number 9 pick versus no pick at all (and missing an all star player for postseason).

If anyone wants to comment on that stuff, it seems pretty interesting. If not, I guess that's that.

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2015, 05:36:19 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Also, talking trash about someone's defense... when that player plays better defense than he does.  ::)

Thank you for your contributions to this thread.

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2015, 05:41:28 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Evan Turner has surprised me in a positive way.  For the most part his body language has been positive-teammate body language -- engaging, patting teammatess on the back, fives on the FT line, helping up like KG.  He's also seemed engaged defensively in every game I've watched (which is almost all).   I get that he's frutrating to watch as a player at times, but overall he's been a pleasant surprise for me. 

Regarding tanking -- I really hate the word.  I want the C's to miss the playoffs and get the 9th/10th seed and a 5% chance at lottery gold.     But I do not want the C's to throw games or for CBS to play lesser plays (with the exception of JY who I'd like to see get NBA pt) just to try to lose games.   I want the C's to give it everything they have and then end up on the losing end of competitive games.  This isn't tanking -- it's just hoping we get a better better draft pick because I think it will be slightly better for the team's future.

I hate wanting the team to lose, but I also can't deny that this is where my heart takes me every game.  However, I'd feel much worse if I thought it was purposeful intent to lose (i.e., tanking).

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2015, 05:45:55 PM »

Offline GetLucky

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Dos, I want you to know that I always enjoy reading your posts, but your jokes in this thread remind me of this news anchor's:
http://youtu.be/aJhKVICLi9s
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 05:55:19 PM by GetLucky »

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2015, 05:47:36 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Evan Turner has surprised me in a positive way.  For the most part his body language has been positive-teammate body language -- engaging, patting teammatess on the back, fives on the FT line, helping up like KG.  He's also seemed engaged defensively in every game I've watched (which is almost all).   I get that he's frutrating to watch as a player at times, but overall he's been a pleasant surprise for me. 

Regarding tanking -- I really hate the word.  I want the C's to miss the playoffs and get the 9th/10th seed and a 5% chance at lottery gold.     But I do not want the C's to throw games or for CBS to play lesser plays (with the exception of JY who I'd like to see get NBA pt) just to try to lose games.   I want the C's to give it everything they have and then end up on the losing end of competitive games.  This isn't tanking -- it's just hoping we get a better better draft pick because I think it will be slightly better for the team's future.

I hate wanting the team to lose, but I also can't deny that this is where my heart takes me every game.  However, I'd feel much worse if I thought it was purposeful intent to lose (i.e., tanking).

That is what I have seen re: ET this year and I have tried to just view him as a Celtic. To elaborate on your hopes for the team lets say tonight they get the ball with 15 seconds left down 1. Marcus Smart gets the ball and puts up a floater. Do you want it to miss or go in?

Though that is obviously a random example, there probably are going to be some situations like that in the next week or so based on how close the standings are and the fact that we have some winnable games.

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2015, 05:48:42 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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I think the C's have gotten the best out of Turner....turns out his best isn't all that great though. I personally think this guy has stamina issues but that's just me....and his jumpshot sucks.

as for "tanking"? at this point we may as well try and make the playoffs.

we as fans can spin this debate any way we want. but the fact is if they were in a real conference like the west this team would not be thinking playoffs, they'd be in prime position for a high lottery pick and no one would be in love with ET, Datome, Jerebko or Olynyk.   

 

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2015, 05:53:58 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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Evan Turner has surprised me in a positive way.  For the most part his body language has been positive-teammate body language -- engaging, patting teammatess on the back, fives on the FT line, helping up like KG.  He's also seemed engaged defensively in every game I've watched (which is almost all).   I get that he's frutrating to watch as a player at times, but overall he's been a pleasant surprise for me. 

Regarding tanking -- I really hate the word.  I want the C's to miss the playoffs and get the 9th/10th seed and a 5% chance at lottery gold.     But I do not want the C's to throw games or for CBS to play lesser plays (with the exception of JY who I'd like to see get NBA pt) just to try to lose games.   I want the C's to give it everything they have and then end up on the losing end of competitive games.  This isn't tanking -- it's just hoping we get a better better draft pick because I think it will be slightly better for the team's future.

I hate wanting the team to lose, but I also can't deny that this is where my heart takes me every game.  However, I'd feel much worse if I thought it was purposeful intent to lose (i.e., tanking).

TP, Neurotic Guy, as you said all that I would say, only better. The only thing I disagree with regards Young, but that s a discussion for another thread and another day.

TP to the OP, especially paragraphs #3, #4 and the last one . Well said.

Regarding ET, anyone who bloodies up Sir lance for the reasons that ET did (defending Hibbert for getting ragged on by Sir Lance in a pre-playoff game practice. Sir Lance was calling out, in front of the whole team and staff, Hibbert's poor play in the last half of the season/playoffs, blaming it in Hibbert being butt-sore because Paul "Catfish" George was banging Hibberts Girlfriend), is more than OK in my book. That makes him likable in my book.

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2015, 06:00:19 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Evan Turner has surprised me in a positive way.  For the most part his body language has been positive-teammate body language -- engaging, patting teammatess on the back, fives on the FT line, helping up like KG.  He's also seemed engaged defensively in every game I've watched (which is almost all).   I get that he's frutrating to watch as a player at times, but overall he's been a pleasant surprise for me. 

Regarding tanking -- I really hate the word.  I want the C's to miss the playoffs and get the 9th/10th seed and a 5% chance at lottery gold.     But I do not want the C's to throw games or for CBS to play lesser plays (with the exception of JY who I'd like to see get NBA pt) just to try to lose games.   I want the C's to give it everything they have and then end up on the losing end of competitive games.  This isn't tanking -- it's just hoping we get a better better draft pick because I think it will be slightly better for the team's future.

I hate wanting the team to lose, but I also can't deny that this is where my heart takes me every game.  However, I'd feel much worse if I thought it was purposeful intent to lose (i.e., tanking).

That is what I have seen re: ET this year and I have tried to just view him as a Celtic. To elaborate on your hopes for the team lets say tonight they get the ball with 15 seconds left down 1. Marcus Smart gets the ball and puts up a floater. Do you want it to miss or go in?

Though that is obviously a random example, there probably are going to be some situations like that in the next week or so based on how close the standings are and the fact that we have some winnable games.

It truly pains me to say this, but I know that I would hope the ball bounces out. 

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2015, 06:15:08 PM »

Offline acieEarl

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Give the current roster a ton of credit as the starters and the bench play hard. That being said they just don't have the talent to beat either Cleveland or Atlanta. Maybe win one game? I rather see them in the lottery.

Another thing is you can't get too attached to any of these players as Danny would trade all and anyone on this team in a heartbeat if he get a good offer.

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2015, 06:15:10 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Evan Turner has surprised me in a positive way.  For the most part his body language has been positive-teammate body language -- engaging, patting teammatess on the back, fives on the FT line, helping up like KG.  He's also seemed engaged defensively in every game I've watched (which is almost all).   I get that he's frutrating to watch as a player at times, but overall he's been a pleasant surprise for me. 

Regarding tanking -- I really hate the word.  I want the C's to miss the playoffs and get the 9th/10th seed and a 5% chance at lottery gold.     But I do not want the C's to throw games or for CBS to play lesser plays (with the exception of JY who I'd like to see get NBA pt) just to try to lose games.   I want the C's to give it everything they have and then end up on the losing end of competitive games.  This isn't tanking -- it's just hoping we get a better better draft pick because I think it will be slightly better for the team's future.

I hate wanting the team to lose, but I also can't deny that this is where my heart takes me every game.  However, I'd feel much worse if I thought it was purposeful intent to lose (i.e., tanking).

That is what I have seen re: ET this year and I have tried to just view him as a Celtic. To elaborate on your hopes for the team lets say tonight they get the ball with 15 seconds left down 1. Marcus Smart gets the ball and puts up a floater. Do you want it to miss or go in?

Though that is obviously a random example, there probably are going to be some situations like that in the next week or so based on how close the standings are and the fact that we have some winnable games.

It truly pains me to say this, but I know that I would hope the ball bounces out.

I can't knock you for how you feel or being honest. I actually did feel like that during the season before Duncan. I was a teenager then but I remember being at a game against the pistons where the Celtics lost on a tip in with like .2 left. I was like ahhh that sucks, but it probably is for the best.

There are a few differences between this year and that year for me. For 1, we already have way too many wins to get Okafor or Towns. So it is a lot harder for me to talk myself into getting excited about a guy at 9-12 versus 15. Every week this season guys have been falling between spots 10 and 20 on these mock drafts. A few weeks ago when I looked one had Turner 7th and one had him 17th. There just isn't a big enough clear value there for me to root against them. In 1996 it was rooting for Duncan over Van Horn and all a lot more clear cut.

Another big difference for me is how hard they have played and tried and are primarily made up of young players could have solid NBA futures. On that 96-97 team Minor (his career was cut really short by a hip injury), Walker, Eric Willams and Radja seemed to have future NBA starter upside. There were way more wayward veterans like Barros, Brown, Pervis Ellison, Todd Day, the unforgettable Alton Lister and Marty Conlon than this year's team.

Here we have players like Smart, KO, Bradley, Thomas and perhaps Crowder that are pretty young and talented.  Our only veterans left that play are really Turner and Bass.

Plus we won't even get started on the the coaches comparison.

Those kinds of factors make the difference for me between now and 97, but I guess I can at least understand the sentiment.

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2015, 06:40:47 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I never thought I would still be seeing the debate going with 9 games left in the season, but this is where we are, we have played 73 games of basketball and people are still debating whether we should root for losses or wins in the final games.

I wanted to point out a few things.

1) We know that CBS is going to have the guys play very hard in every single game. As a result of this we will most likely win 2 or 3 more games against the weaker teams on their schedule (Pistons, maybe Charlotte or the reeling Bucks). We also have a few games other teams will not necessarily being trying to win. For, example, Blatt claimed yesterday he would not rest players. However, Love and Shumpert both left their game against Philly with what appeared to be minor injuries. Is this guy gonna really risk a title shot with a seed locked up against us twice in the final week? Especially considering Love has battled chronic back pain this year and Lebron needed two weeks off to reboot? These are all things that are out of our control and it really is pretty unlikely we will lose every game.

2) Do we live in a vacuum that the other teams in the East are not well aware of how the draft process works? Do you think their gm's and coaches and fans are not having a conversation about this? Do we think that Charlotte and Miami (not to mention teams like Utah and Denver in the West) don't want to get the best pick possible? Think about Miami for a second and imagine if we were them. Instead of debating pick 9 versus 15, it is debating 9 versus nothing! How can that team want to make the playoffs, especially considering they are without their best player (Bosh) and half their rotation is banged up? So even if we could somehow get inside the brain of CBS at best we could get him to have the same mindset that some of these other teams will have.

3) I think there is only one thing I can think of off hand that everyone on the blog agrees with. That is that 95% of the time this group of players is giving it their best and putting out 100% effort. In a league where you have many players just collecting their pay check, not playing defense or being in horrible shape (sullinger is not currently playing), isn't it kind of hard to root for a team playing the game the right way to fail each night? That has to be kind of depressing.

4) This is related to number 3, but this seems to be a likeable group of players. We don't have any jerks on the team, players appear really unselfish and all seem to like the coach and each other. The vets like Bass, who in other situations have demanded a buy out or have sulked, have been consummate professionals. Even a guy like Gigi just appears absolutely elated for his teammates when they play well. Some, if not a lot of these guy, will not be with the team next year. Can't we just enjoy their last games as Celtics and appreciate them as hard working good teammates that tried their best for us?

I get that I am unlikely to change the tone of the board or any posters opinion's with these points, but just felt like sharing them. These next few weeks will be the last Celtics basketball for 5 months and the last time to see some Celtics in green. I personally am going to enjoy them and will root for them. The chips will fall where they may and I hope we get a nice talented young player in a few months whether it be at pick 9, 10 or 15. Hope some others enjoy it with me.
I'm hoping they play hard and end up missing the playoffs anyway.  I definitely don't want to back into the playoffs because some of the better teams rest their stars against us.  Regarding our other competition for the last couple playoff spots, Brooklyn is obviously not tanking and I don't see Miami, Indy or Charlotte doing so either. 

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2015, 07:13:39 PM »

Offline dreamgreen

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TP to OP for being the rare poster that remains grammatically correct dang-near every post. Also TP to Dos for being the entertaining agitator who always brings in the other persepctive (usually sarcasm-laden, might I add). And hey, don't go getting insulted after you brag about the "perfect post."  ;)

Love this comment hehehe, grammatically correct! I hated English class but will admit it is an important class. It reminds me of my brother, I'm far from grammatically correct so anytime I'm not he loves to point it out. It's a strong point for him, my brother is a great guy, didn't graduate high school though and since he's not on this forum it pains me to say one of the dumbest people I know, but hell he knows grammar lol.

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2015, 07:15:28 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I never thought I would still be seeing the debate going with 9 games left in the season, but this is where we are, we have played 73 games of basketball and people are still debating whether we should root for losses or wins in the final games.

I wanted to point out a few things.

1) We know that CBS is going to have the guys play very hard in every single game. As a result of this we will most likely win 2 or 3 more games against the weaker teams on their schedule (Pistons, maybe Charlotte or the reeling Bucks). We also have a few games other teams will not necessarily being trying to win. For, example, Blatt claimed yesterday he would not rest players. However, Love and Shumpert both left their game against Philly with what appeared to be minor injuries. Is this guy gonna really risk a title shot with a seed locked up against us twice in the final week? Especially considering Love has battled chronic back pain this year and Lebron needed two weeks off to reboot? These are all things that are out of our control and it really is pretty unlikely we will lose every game.

2) Do we live in a vacuum that the other teams in the East are not well aware of how the draft process works? Do you think their gm's and coaches and fans are not having a conversation about this? Do we think that Charlotte and Miami (not to mention teams like Utah and Denver in the West) don't want to get the best pick possible? Think about Miami for a second and imagine if we were them. Instead of debating pick 9 versus 15, it is debating 9 versus nothing! How can that team want to make the playoffs, especially considering they are without their best player (Bosh) and half their rotation is banged up? So even if we could somehow get inside the brain of CBS at best we could get him to have the same mindset that some of these other teams will have.

3) I think there is only one thing I can think of off hand that everyone on the blog agrees with. That is that 95% of the time this group of players is giving it their best and putting out 100% effort. In a league where you have many players just collecting their pay check, not playing defense or being in horrible shape (sullinger is not currently playing), isn't it kind of hard to root for a team playing the game the right way to fail each night? That has to be kind of depressing.

4) This is related to number 3, but this seems to be a likeable group of players. We don't have any jerks on the team, players appear really unselfish and all seem to like the coach and each other. The vets like Bass, who in other situations have demanded a buy out or have sulked, have been consummate professionals. Even a guy like Gigi just appears absolutely elated for his teammates when they play well. Some, if not a lot of these guy, will not be with the team next year. Can't we just enjoy their last games as Celtics and appreciate them as hard working good teammates that tried their best for us?

I get that I am unlikely to change the tone of the board or any posters opinion's with these points, but just felt like sharing them. These next few weeks will be the last Celtics basketball for 5 months and the last time to see some Celtics in green. I personally am going to enjoy them and will root for them. The chips will fall where they may and I hope we get a nice talented young player in a few months whether it be at pick 9, 10 or 15. Hope some others enjoy it with me.
I'm hoping they play hard and end up missing the playoffs anyway.  I definitely don't want to back into the playoffs because some of the better teams rest their stars against us.  Regarding our other competition for the last couple playoff spots, Brooklyn is obviously not tanking and I don't see Miami, Indy or Charlotte doing so either.

I may make a separate thread about this, cause it is something that fascinates me, but why in the world does Miami want to make the playoffs right now? They will lose a top 10 pick if they do, which is a pretty valuable asset (especially on this forum). They also are playing without Bosh while Wade, Whiteside, Deng and Anderson have all battled injuries. It is not like their fan base or front office is starving for a first round playoff experience or they have many young players that would benefit from it.

Are Miami fans up in arms about this? It seems like a pretty clear decision to me that they should take one step back, missing a first round playoff series short handed, to come back next season with a healthy Bosh and either a top 10 pick, or another veteran they receive for top 10 pick. Dragic, Wade, Deng, Bosh, Whitesite and contributing rookie or other vets could conceivably give Cleveland or Atlanta a run for their money.

The one thing it makes me wonder is how big a role Riley's ego is playing in all of this. He was obviously upset with the the way things with Lebron went down saying something along the lines of  wouldn't have gotten mcroberts or possibly napier if he knew lebron was leaving. Now maybe it is a little too much to miss the playoffs after trading for Dragic and watching Lebron as a top seed. 

Re: One final point on Tanking
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2015, 07:36:29 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Evan Turner has surprised me in a positive way.  For the most part his body language has been positive-teammate body language -- engaging, patting teammatess on the back, fives on the FT line, helping up like KG.  He's also seemed engaged defensively in every game I've watched (which is almost all).   I get that he's frutrating to watch as a player at times, but overall he's been a pleasant surprise for me. 

Regarding tanking -- I really hate the word.  I want the C's to miss the playoffs and get the 9th/10th seed and a 5% chance at lottery gold.     But I do not want the C's to throw games or for CBS to play lesser plays (with the exception of JY who I'd like to see get NBA pt) just to try to lose games.   I want the C's to give it everything they have and then end up on the losing end of competitive games.  This isn't tanking -- it's just hoping we get a better better draft pick because I think it will be slightly better for the team's future.

I hate wanting the team to lose, but I also can't deny that this is where my heart takes me every game.  However, I'd feel much worse if I thought it was purposeful intent to lose (i.e., tanking).

That is what I have seen re: ET this year and I have tried to just view him as a Celtic. To elaborate on your hopes for the team lets say tonight they get the ball with 15 seconds left down 1. Marcus Smart gets the ball and puts up a floater. Do you want it to miss or go in?

Though that is obviously a random example, there probably are going to be some situations like that in the next week or so based on how close the standings are and the fact that we have some winnable games.

It truly pains me to say this, but I know that I would hope the ball bounces out.

I can't knock you for how you feel or being honest. I actually did feel like that during the season before Duncan. I was a teenager then but I remember being at a game against the pistons where the Celtics lost on a tip in with like .2 left. I was like ahhh that sucks, but it probably is for the best.

There are a few differences between this year and that year for me. For 1, we already have way too many wins to get Okafor or Towns. So it is a lot harder for me to talk myself into getting excited about a guy at 9-12 versus 15. Every week this season guys have been falling between spots 10 and 20 on these mock drafts. A few weeks ago when I looked one had Turner 7th and one had him 17th. There just isn't a big enough clear value there for me to root against them. In 1996 it was rooting for Duncan over Van Horn and all a lot more clear cut.

Another big difference for me is how hard they have played and tried and are primarily made up of young players could have solid NBA futures. On that 96-97 team Minor (his career was cut really short by a hip injury), Walker, Eric Willams and Radja seemed to have future NBA starter upside. There were way more wayward veterans like Barros, Brown, Pervis Ellison, Todd Day, the unforgettable Alton Lister and Marty Conlon than this year's team.

Here we have players like Smart, KO, Bradley, Thomas and perhaps Crowder that are pretty young and talented.  Our only veterans left that play are really Turner and Bass.

Plus we won't even get started on the the coaches comparison.

Those kinds of factors make the difference for me between now and 97, but I guess I can at least understand the sentiment.

I rooted hard for Duncan too. I can see the difference between the Tank for Duncan team and this one, but losing in round 1 just isn't enough of a payoff for me. 

You never know how these things will play out (heck, we didn't even get a crack at Keith Van Horn in '97), but I am feeling strongly that if we have the 9th, 25th, and 33rd picks this year, along with trade bait like IT, JS, ET, KO, JY, AB... we can move up and get a player in this draft with star potential (a Paul Pierce level player v. another JS/KO level player).   That excites me along with our future picks and cap-space.

Next year, assuming we get a nice player in the draft and can lure a 2nd tier FA here,  it's all about us winning and Brooklyn losing.