Poll

What's better for a team's future?

Make the playoffs Below .500.  Get swept in Round 1.  Pick #15
30 (34.5%)
Miss the Playoffs.  Have 9th best Draft odds.
57 (65.5%)

Total Members Voted: 87

Author Topic: Better to be swept in Round 1 and pick #15... or have 9th best draft odds?  (Read 27341 times)

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Offline Celtics18

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We're half a game out of the playoffs with nine games to go.  We've got a reasonable shot at making it.  If we miss the playoffs, it won't be because we made a last ditch tank effort, but it will simply be because we get beaten out by the teams competing for that spot with us.

Personally, this is the most fun I've had watching the Celtics in a while.  They are in the midst of a heated, meaningful competition. 

To me, that's what being a fan is all about.  It's exciting to watch my team play meaningful games.  They may not make it, but right now I'm enjoying the ride. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Offline ScoobyDoo

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When the season started my hope was a top 3 pick
Then I hoped we have a top five pick
Then a pick in the 5-10 range
Then I was holding out for something between 10-14
I'm now resigned to the 17th pick

To answer your question more directly - I think it is absolutely, 100% asinine for our season to have played out the way it has.

After the Rondo & Green trades & Sullinger injury, Prince, Thornton and Bass wouldn't have seen the court.

I would have started:
Olynyk, Jerebko, Crowder, Bradley and Smart   
Bench: Pressey, Shavlik, Young
Only when necessary: Turner, Bass & Zeller

I already know what the vets can do.

I take a top three pick and go full steam from there - including with Bass, Turner and Zeller.

Having a top three pick guarantees nothing - but I'd take my chances with a Towns, Okafor, Russell or Winslow chip moving forward  - and build from there. One season, one blue ship pick.

We likely missed out on a Parker or Wiggins draft pick last year for the exact same reason. We'd bring in all out vets, many times, down the stretch to pull out a victory against some other lottery bound team, screwing ourselves out of Wiggins or Parker in the process.

I'd have focused on the war rather than the battle.

And no it's not tanking - it's developing the young who will be here long term. The bonus is a Wiggins / Parker or Towns/Russell draft as an additional benefit.

Everyone bags on Philly for their tankapalooza.

If Embiid comes back healthy, let's see what everyone is saying when they trotting out a lineup of Embiid, Noel and Towns and/or Russell/Winslow combination....


Offline Beat LA

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When the season started my hope was a top 3 pick
Then I hoped we have a top five pick
Then a pick in the 5-10 range
Then I was holding out for something between 10-14
I'm now resigned to the 17th pick

To answer your question more directly - I think it is absolutely, 100% asinine for our season to have played out the way it has.

After the Rondo & Green trades & Sullinger injury, Prince, Thornton and Bass wouldn't have seen the court.

I would have started:
Olynyk, Jerebko, Crowder, Bradley and Smart   
Bench: Pressey, Shavlik, Young
Only when necessary: Turner, Bass & Zeller

I already know what the vets can do.

I take a top three pick and go full steam from there - including with Bass, Turner and Zeller.

Having a top three pick guarantees nothing - but I'd take my chances with a Towns, Okafor, Russell or Winslow chip moving forward  - and build from there. One season, one blue ship pick.

We likely missed out on a Parker or Wiggins draft pick last year for the exact same reason. We'd bring in all out vets, many times, down the stretch to pull out a victory against some other lottery bound team, screwing ourselves out of Wiggins or Parker in the process.

I'd have focused on the war rather than the battle.

And no it's not tanking - it's developing the young who will be here long term. The bonus is a Wiggins / Parker or Towns/Russell draft as an additional benefit.

Everyone bags on Philly for their tankapalooza.

If Embiid comes back healthy, let's see what everyone is saying when they trotting out a lineup of Embiid, Noel and Towns and/or Russell/Winslow combination....

Jinkies, lol ;) ;D, I completely agree - TP.  At this point, I honestly wouldn't be shocked at all if we were tied for the 8th seed oing into the final day of the year, only to miss the playoffs and simultaneously fail to get a good draft pick.  Ugh.  Young should have gotten major minutes, imo.  Oh, what's the use - even if we did get a top 3 pick, Danny would trade it for some dude who sucks or he'd completely blow the pick, as usual.  Seriously, what the hell are we doing? 

Offline JBcat

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When the season started my hope was a top 3 pick
Then I hoped we have a top five pick
Then a pick in the 5-10 range
Then I was holding out for something between 10-14
I'm now resigned to the 17th pick

To answer your question more directly - I think it is absolutely, 100% asinine for our season to have played out the way it has.

After the Rondo & Green trades & Sullinger injury, Prince, Thornton and Bass wouldn't have seen the court.

I would have started:
Olynyk, Jerebko, Crowder, Bradley and Smart   
Bench: Pressey, Shavlik, Young
Only when necessary: Turner, Bass & Zeller

I already know what the vets can do.

I take a top three pick and go full steam from there - including with Bass, Turner and Zeller.

Having a top three pick guarantees nothing - but I'd take my chances with a Towns, Okafor, Russell or Winslow chip moving forward  - and build from there. One season, one blue ship pick.

We likely missed out on a Parker or Wiggins draft pick last year for the exact same reason. We'd bring in all out vets, many times, down the stretch to pull out a victory against some other lottery bound team, screwing ourselves out of Wiggins or Parker in the process.

I'd have focused on the war rather than the battle.

And no it's not tanking - it's developing the young who will be here long term. The bonus is a Wiggins / Parker or Towns/Russell draft as an additional benefit.

Everyone bags on Philly for their tankapalooza.

If Embiid comes back healthy, let's see what everyone is saying when they trotting out a lineup of Embiid, Noel and Towns and/or Russell/Winslow combination....

That's all well and good but it would have been very hard with our group to try out tanking the quartet of the 76rs, Knicks, Lakers, and Wolves.   With our luck we would have ended up with the 6th pick again, and not a franchise player. 

Plus I don't think it would have gone over well with Zeller, Turner, and Bass to only play  them necessary, and possibly turn off potential future free agents to see quality players buried on the bench.   

We have plenty of draft picks and flexibilty going forward after this year so it's not like we'll be stuck in the mud by not getting a top pick this year.  If Ainge didn't think this he definitely wouldn't have traded for Thomas at the deadline.

Offline MBunge

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When the season started my hope was a top 3 pick
Then I hoped we have a top five pick
Then a pick in the 5-10 range
Then I was holding out for something between 10-14
I'm now resigned to the 17th pick

To answer your question more directly - I think it is absolutely, 100% asinine for our season to have played out the way it has.

After the Rondo & Green trades & Sullinger injury, Prince, Thornton and Bass wouldn't have seen the court.

I would have started:
Olynyk, Jerebko, Crowder, Bradley and Smart   
Bench: Pressey, Shavlik, Young
Only when necessary: Turner, Bass & Zeller

I already know what the vets can do.

I take a top three pick and go full steam from there - including with Bass, Turner and Zeller.

Having a top three pick guarantees nothing - but I'd take my chances with a Towns, Okafor, Russell or Winslow chip moving forward  - and build from there. One season, one blue ship pick.

We likely missed out on a Parker or Wiggins draft pick last year for the exact same reason. We'd bring in all out vets, many times, down the stretch to pull out a victory against some other lottery bound team, screwing ourselves out of Wiggins or Parker in the process.

I'd have focused on the war rather than the battle.

And no it's not tanking - it's developing the young who will be here long term. The bonus is a Wiggins / Parker or Towns/Russell draft as an additional benefit.

Everyone bags on Philly for their tankapalooza.

If Embiid comes back healthy, let's see what everyone is saying when they trotting out a lineup of Embiid, Noel and Towns and/or Russell/Winslow combination....

And that's why you'll never be a coach, GM or any sort of leader in any field of life.  You don't want to work.  You don't want to compete.  You want to rig the game to make it easy for yourself.  You want to take a shortcut.

What if everybody in the NBA starts following Philly's example?

Mike

Offline Ilikesports17

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When the season started my hope was a top 3 pick
Then I hoped we have a top five pick
Then a pick in the 5-10 range
Then I was holding out for something between 10-14
I'm now resigned to the 17th pick

To answer your question more directly - I think it is absolutely, 100% asinine for our season to have played out the way it has.

After the Rondo & Green trades & Sullinger injury, Prince, Thornton and Bass wouldn't have seen the court.

I would have started:
Olynyk, Jerebko, Crowder, Bradley and Smart   
Bench: Pressey, Shavlik, Young
Only when necessary: Turner, Bass & Zeller

I already know what the vets can do.

I take a top three pick and go full steam from there - including with Bass, Turner and Zeller.

Having a top three pick guarantees nothing - but I'd take my chances with a Towns, Okafor, Russell or Winslow chip moving forward  - and build from there. One season, one blue ship pick.

We likely missed out on a Parker or Wiggins draft pick last year for the exact same reason. We'd bring in all out vets, many times, down the stretch to pull out a victory against some other lottery bound team, screwing ourselves out of Wiggins or Parker in the process.

I'd have focused on the war rather than the battle.

And no it's not tanking - it's developing the young who will be here long term. The bonus is a Wiggins / Parker or Towns/Russell draft as an additional benefit.

Everyone bags on Philly for their tankapalooza.

If Embiid comes back healthy, let's see what everyone is saying when they trotting out a lineup of Embiid, Noel and Towns and/or Russell/Winslow combination....

And that's why you'll never be a coach, GM or any sort of leader in any field of life.  You don't want to work.  You don't want to compete.  You want to rig the game to make it easy for yourself.  You want to take a shortcut.

What if everybody in the NBA starts following Philly's example?

Mike
To be fair The Twolves, Lakers, Knicks, and less blatantly, a few other teams have followed their example. Also keep in mind the Spurs tanked for Tim Duncan, or was it Robinson, or was it both I dont remember.

Also, I get the playing the young guns idea, but I think playing guys (Young) major minutes before they are ready can be very detrimental so Im not sure how much "play the young guys" would change. Also never play to lose. ever. I get managing to lose, I get devoiding the roster of talent to the point where it is very very difficult to win games, but to take a decent roster and intentionally put out a less than optimal product on the floor is unforgivable basketball sin to me.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Offline Ilikesports17

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this might not be the right thread but someone a while back suggested a metric where you had to wait like 3 years after landing in the top 3 before you could win the lotto again. I think this plan is perfect. It allows for sucking to give the best  chane at a great player but it also discourages teams like Philly for setting up like a 5 yr plan of sucking to get multiple top 3 picks.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Offline D.o.s.

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this might not be the right thread but someone a while back suggested a metric where you had to wait like 3 years after landing in the top 3 before you could win the lotto again. I think this plan is perfect. It allows for sucking to give the best  chane at a great player but it also discourages teams like Philly for setting up like a 5 yr plan of sucking to get multiple top 3 picks.

Sure, the problem with that is that you're keeping the bad teams very bad for a very long time, which is not the kind of thing you want to sell to your fans as a team.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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I am pro tanking but again, we are developing two blue chip assets right now: Marcus Smart and Brad Stevens.  Stevens needs the reps as much as anybody and it seems like it will pay off for us in the long run.  I'm really hoping that we miss the playoffs by a game or two, but if we make it while giving Smart big minutes and because of crazy inbounds plays that Stevens draws up, then I guess so be it.  It won't be the end of the world. 

Hopefully we can get better in the offseason along with Indy and keep Brooklyn out of the playoffs by default for a couple years.  The Bulls, Cavs, Wizards, Bucks, Raptors and Hawks all seem to be locks for next season.  If Miami can overcome their injuries and keep Whiteside functioning, it will be really hard for Brooklyn to make the playoffs.  I imagine that Orlando, Philly, Detroit and/or New York could improbably improve their rosters considerably too if they wanted to.  While a top 3 pick this year would be absolutely amazing - or even drafting someone like Hezonja 9th - I don't think we're as hopeless as some do if we happen to make the playoffs this year. 

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Ok Mbunge, the following is a very arrogant, ignorant statement, completely loaded with uneducated, unfounded assumptions about someone you've never met and know absolutely nothing about:

"And that's why you'll never be a coach, GM or any sort of leader in any field of life.  You don't want to work.  You don't want to compete.  You want to rig the game to make it easy for yourself.  You want to take a shortcut".

In short, to reply to the insult - I've actually been "asked" to lead at every corporation I've ever worked at and built up a $20 Million dollar per year company from scratch - putting in the 18 hour days. I started working at nine years old, 40 hours a week planting in the fields 8 hours a day for a buck an hour - I understand "work" very well indeed.

As far as competing, I was the type of player you didn't want to tangle with on the court - I didn't care how big you were either -completely irrelevant to me. People who know me best say I'm the most ridiculously competitive person they've ever met. Everything's a competition to me.

So, now that we've gotten your ridiculously inappropriate and inaccurate insult out of the way, I'll address your reply - and monitors, please don't lock the thread - I'm just answering MBunge's insult.

In a corporation would it be a good investment for me to invest much time, training, energy and resources into a group of guys under my employ who I am pretty well convinced will absolutely not be with my company in the next 6 months - or should I invest all my resources into guys I feel absolutely "will be" with me in six months.   

Why on earth would I invest in guys who have no future with my organization.

After the Rondo & Green trades and then Sullinger getting injured, we had a great chance to play and develop primarily our young guys and probably, as a result, end up with a top five pick as a result.

Instead I've got guys like Marcus Thornton and Tayshaun Prince - guys who were never wearing Green again after this season - coming off the bench to drop 20 on teams.

I've got Brandon Bass, who I am completely and fully aware of his talents, taking minutes from Olynyk, Sullinger, Jerebko and Zeller. I know what Bass can do and I probably want to resign him as a vet presence this off season. But right now I need long hard looks at my young guys to know exactly if they "do or don't" fit long term.

The combination of those three players (Bass, Thornton & Prince) probably won us an extra 5-10 games this season - that number is probably the difference between me getting a Karl Towns level talent or a Bobby Portis / Kaminsky level talent moving forward. I'd like to take my chances with the Karl Towns level talent.

This same principle applied last year where we had vets who weren't going to be here long term, grinding out meaningless wins that moved us "just" out of range of acquiring a Wiggins level talent versus a Marcus Smart level talent.

I would have played:

Olynyk, Zeller, Sulllinger, Crowder, Turner, Young, Smart, Bradley, Pressey, Jerebko, Datome, etc., the Lion's share of minutes - period.     

It's not "rigging the game" it's understanding the war. It's not take a shortcut, it's making the "smart cut".

I don't need to see Bass, Prince and Thornton play - I need a transcendent talent.

And don't kid yourself, some of the very best GM's ever have made roster moves to put themselves in lottery position to get that transcendent player. You don't think Jerry West was tanking when he basically gave away half his Lakers team on lopsided trades to put himself "in position" to get Shaq? It's the same thing.

Except in our case I wouldn't even call it tanking -that's what Philly is clearly doing. For us it wold simply be playing solely our young, talented group of players. If they got us into the playoff I'd be happy as a pig in mud.

But I am not happy, by any stretch of the imagination that guys like Bass, Prince and Thornton may well be the reason we are ultimately looking at the 17th versus a top five pick in this year's draft - completely asinine.     

Offline ScoobyDoo

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I'll take my Towns level talent AND all my cap, picks and assets moving forward - thank you very much.

Offline Rondo9

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I hope you realize that a lot of the Celtics recent wins were because of IT, Bradley, Sullinger, Zeller , Smart and Turner rather than Bass, Prince and Thorton. Danny did his best to clean the deck, but when the Celtics kept winning he decided to adapt to the situation. The Celtics have draft picks and flexibility moving forward and I much rather watch them than Philly.

Offline LarBrd33

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I feel like Forsberg wrote this in response to this thread:  http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4718660/embrace-the-celtics-playoff-push

Quote
And yet there are some who are convinced that Boston would be better off to pull up and let the pack race by it. They scoff at the idea that anything substantial is being gained in this playoff push and believe the Celtics are hurting their chance for a brighter future by playing for the postseason instead of pingpong balls.

This group of curmudgeons, who would prefer you get off their lawns, are not without logic (as misguided as it might be). A trip to the postseason almost certainly will be a short stay for Boston and assures the Celtics of drafting no better than 15th overall in June. But missing the playoffs means only a slight chance at vaulting in the lottery, which some believe is Boston's best chance to add its next impact player.

And on the flip side you have Zach Lowe who points out how silly this playoff push is:  http://grantland.com/the-triangle/a-playoff-problem-if-the-celtics-are-trying-to-rebuild-then-why-the-postseason-push/

Quote
It was just one game, but the Clippers? annihilation of Boston on Sunday was a reminder that the playoff-chasing Celtics of 2015 are a cute feel-good story ? and little more. The rebuild is moving faster than expected, with a surprise run at the no. 8 seed in a dreadful conference, but there is a giant chasm separating this plucky, starless group from what it aspires to be.

...

But they have no stars and no clear path to getting one outside a major break in free agency or the trade market. The Celtics have made the leap to mediocrity so fast that they may have no easy way out. They?re still not good, but they?re not bad enough to get an early first-round pick ? to get a clear shot at a star, in other words. Even if they lose this season?s slap fight for the final Eastern Conference playoff spot, they will likely pick in the late lottery ? a range that looks like their draft ceiling for the next few seasons.

Offline inverselock

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You're obsessed LarBrd33.  Been stuck on repeat for a while.  Hey, maybe Ainge will listen to you.




Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Ok Mbunge, the following is a very arrogant, ignorant statement, completely loaded with uneducated, unfounded assumptions about someone you've never met and know absolutely nothing about:

So are you a coach?   Curiousity got me.

I can see both sides of the arguments.  I like watching the team play and I honestly can't root against them once they start playing.  I think the playoff experience things is over rated as I don't think all these guys will be part of the future core.  But I know a number nine is a better pick than a fifteen most of the time.  Even if Ainge traded 15 and the LA he is not moving up to 9, I'd wager.  But once the games start I find it I can't root against us.   I will take whatever the team delivers.