Author Topic: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty  (Read 12695 times)

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Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2015, 12:41:52 PM »

Offline coffee425

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I also think that grading a rookie is unfair unless it's against other rookies at his position. So that being said,

3 Rookie PG comparison per 36 minutes http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/0dF0E

I'll take number 36.

Those numbers surprised me. I'd take him over the others, too.

His fg% is God-awful, but that is explained in his shot selection, which HAS to at least be in part due to Stevens telling him to let it fly from distance.

In comparison to the Elfrid Payton, Marcus looks like Ray Allen. I'd rather not watch another non-Big3 Rondo pg again..
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Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2015, 12:45:21 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I also think that grading a rookie is unfair unless it's against other rookies at his position. So that being said,

3 Rookie PG comparison per 36 minutes http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/0dF0E

I'll take number 36.
He grades out pretty well against a large sample size, too (there's some noise in there because BKR doesn't allow for a pure 'PG' distinction):
http://bkref.com/tiny/YyEEo
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Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2015, 12:50:57 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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Smart's absolute floor is someone like Tony Allen. I say absolute floor, because I would contend that right now at this moment Marcus is as good a perimeter defender as TA is, as a rookie. His shot is better than TA's ever was, and it's improving. His court vision, rebounding ability, ball handling skills and strength is better than Allen. Smart is a defensive savant. In 5 years he might be the best back-court defender in the NBA. That means more than you guys think.

His true position might be as a secondary ball handler at SG next to a scoring PG, ala Isaiah Thomas, whom I think he needs to play next to more. But we haven't even taken into account his infectious hustle, determination and leadership. Personally, I think he's one of the main reasons this Celtics team has overachieved so much this season. You just can't teach those kinds of intangibles.

I see why some people might be disappointed with his statistical output on the offensive end. But he simply doesn't have much opportunity to score. Even now where he's getting almost 30mpg, he's not really our primary ball handler because IT and Turner initiate the offense as much as he does. Stevens is primarily having Smart focus on two things: Playing amazing defense and improving his jump shot/shot selection. Bottom line, he could stand to be more aggressive, but he's just not getting his number called that often on offense.

Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2015, 01:18:12 PM »

Offline jonaslopes

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I also think that grading a rookie is unfair unless it's against other rookies at his position. So that being said,

3 Rookie PG comparison per 36 minutes http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/0dF0E

I'll take number 36.

Well, everybody knew before the draft that he would contribute immediately. In a few years I think Payton and particularly Exum will be better than Marcus.
It's nice seeing him get exposed as overrated after having argued with fellow fans for years that he was overrated.. but I don't hate him. I'm looking forward to seeing him [...] bounce around to a couple more teams... eventually come back to Boston[...] and helps us as a role player until he runs himself out of the league.
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Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2015, 01:21:21 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Smart's absolute floor is someone like Tony Allen. I say absolute floor, because I would contend that right now at this moment Marcus is as good a perimeter defender as TA is, as a rookie.
I'm a little confused. Do you mean Marcus is as good a defender as Allen was as a rookie, or as good of a defender as he is right now?
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2015, 01:22:01 PM »

Offline coffee425

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I also think that grading a rookie is unfair unless it's against other rookies at his position. So that being said,

3 Rookie PG comparison per 36 minutes http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/0dF0E

I'll take number 36.



Well, everybody knew before the draft that he would contribute immediately. In a few years I think Payton and particularly Exum will be better than Marcus.


I disagree. Athletically, Marcus tested just as well as the other two at the combine so I think all 3 have similar potentials. I'm only gonna give him credit for being more nba ready now. Not to mention, his intangibles are coming through nicely on this team.
Quote
Even at the end of the game, we lined up in different formation that he hadn't seen and he called out our play before I got the ball. I heard him calling it out. -John Wall on Brad Stevens

Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2015, 01:27:39 PM »

Offline byennie

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I don't know how much some of you guys expect to see from a rookie.  I'm not sure where these studs are all throughout drafts that come in and are playing very well in their first year.  I'm not seeing them.

Also, you don't need to be an All Star to be good.
Its not that hard really.  You evaluate skill sets. And you expect to see flashes.  I see precious little of either in Smart.  At this point, he is a below average ball handler, below average court vision, below average quickness, below average athlete, below average shooter, below average getting to the rim, and below average finisher. And some of these won't change and most probably won't.

I'm not sure how you can call him a below-average athlete. How is he such an elite defender if he's not even average athletically?

He's shown the ability to be at least an above-average 3PT shooter, around 35% with modest improvements.

He's show the ability to get to the free throw line in college, and all of last month (5x 3PT, 4x FTS, 4x 2PT attempts per game).

He's shown leadership and ability to play within a system (see: low usage and most of his offense coming from the free throw and 3PT lines).

Is he a work in progress? Absolutely. But saying that he "probably won't" improve is a pretty wild conjecture. It would be atypical if a highly touted, hard-working, 20 year-old point guard *didn't* improve noticeably past his first 50 or so NBA games. Of course we could always trade him, Chauncey Billups style.

I have to imagine if Smart was scoring 20 points per night and playing lousy defense, we'd be raving about how all he has to do is learn to defend.

Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2015, 01:41:33 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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Smart's absolute floor is someone like Tony Allen. I say absolute floor, because I would contend that right now at this moment Marcus is as good a perimeter defender as TA is, as a rookie.
I'm a little confused. Do you mean Marcus is as good a defender as Allen was as a rookie, or as good of a defender as he is right now?

Sorry it was supposed to be "was as a rookie". You could see Tony Allen was going to be a very good defender early in his career. But from the first few weeks it became pretty clear Marcus' defense is elite.

Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2015, 01:45:33 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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He deserves court time for his defense. Most of the time he is in the game Evan Turner is running the offense, so it's not like he has the same responsibility as a point guard.
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Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2015, 01:48:21 PM »

Offline jonaslopes

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I also think that grading a rookie is unfair unless it's against other rookies at his position. So that being said,

3 Rookie PG comparison per 36 minutes http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/0dF0E

I'll take number 36.



Well, everybody knew before the draft that he would contribute immediately. In a few years I think Payton and particularly Exum will be better than Marcus.


I disagree. Athletically, Marcus tested just as well as the other two at the combine so I think all 3 have similar potentials. I'm only gonna give him credit for being more nba ready now. Not to mention, his intangibles are coming through nicely on this team.

Well, it's a pointless discussion. We have to wait to discuss it again. I still think - just think, can't know for sure - that Exum will be the best of the three.
It's nice seeing him get exposed as overrated after having argued with fellow fans for years that he was overrated.. but I don't hate him. I'm looking forward to seeing him [...] bounce around to a couple more teams... eventually come back to Boston[...] and helps us as a role player until he runs himself out of the league.
LarBrd33 on Rondo

Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2015, 02:21:07 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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I don't know how much some of you guys expect to see from a rookie.  I'm not sure where these studs are all throughout drafts that come in and are playing very well in their first year.  I'm not seeing them.

Also, you don't need to be an All Star to be good.
Its not that hard really.  You evaluate skill sets. And you expect to see flashes.  I see precious little of either in Smart.  At this point, he is a below average ball handler, below average court vision, below average quickness, below average athlete, below average shooter, below average getting to the rim, and below average finisher. And some of these won't change and most probably won't.

I'm not sure how you can call him a below-average athlete. How is he such an elite defender if he's not even average athletically?

He's shown the ability to be at least an above-average 3PT shooter, around 35% with modest improvements.

He's show the ability to get to the free throw line in college, and all of last month (5x 3PT, 4x FTS, 4x 2PT attempts per game).

He's shown leadership and ability to play within a system (see: low usage and most of his offense coming from the free throw and 3PT lines).

Is he a work in progress? Absolutely. But saying that he "probably won't" improve is a pretty wild conjecture. It would be atypical if a highly touted, hard-working, 20 year-old point guard *didn't* improve noticeably past his first 50 or so NBA games. Of course we could always trade him, Chauncey Billups style.

I have to imagine if Smart was scoring 20 points per night and playing lousy defense, we'd be raving about how all he has to do is learn to defend.

TP to you.  I tire of arguing with people about the importance of defense.  No one cares unless it's a big who blocks shots I guess.

I don't expect Marcus to ever become a big time scorer or anything anyways.  I expect a smart and versatile offensive player and a big time game changer on defense.
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Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2015, 04:24:06 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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I don't know how much some of you guys expect to see from a rookie.  I'm not sure where these studs are all throughout drafts that come in and are playing very well in their first year.  I'm not seeing them.

Also, you don't need to be an All Star to be good.
Its not that hard really.  You evaluate skill sets. And you expect to see flashes.  I see precious little of either in Smart.  At this point, he is a below average ball handler, below average court vision, below average quickness, below average athlete, below average shooter, below average getting to the rim, and below average finisher. And some of these won't change and most probably won't.

I agree with you. We are not allowed to criticize Smart around here. He is an amazing defender, but bad ball handler, not quick enough and maybe even not a PG. In my opinion he's a great guy to come off the bench and defend, not a starter and not a sixth pick. I didn't want to draft him, but now he's here. But we need another PG for the future in my opinion. I'd trade him for a good option.

I accept all the other opinions about him. Respectfully disagree, though.

Who did you want to draft? Don't tell me you wanted YET ANOTHER PF with Randle...
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2015, 04:50:21 PM »

Offline jonaslopes

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I don't know how much some of you guys expect to see from a rookie.  I'm not sure where these studs are all throughout drafts that come in and are playing very well in their first year.  I'm not seeing them.

Also, you don't need to be an All Star to be good.
Its not that hard really.  You evaluate skill sets. And you expect to see flashes.  I see precious little of either in Smart.  At this point, he is a below average ball handler, below average court vision, below average quickness, below average athlete, below average shooter, below average getting to the rim, and below average finisher. And some of these won't change and most probably won't.

I agree with you. We are not allowed to criticize Smart around here. He is an amazing defender, but bad ball handler, not quick enough and maybe even not a PG. In my opinion he's a great guy to come off the bench and defend, not a starter and not a sixth pick. I didn't want to draft him, but now he's here. But we need another PG for the future in my opinion. I'd trade him for a good option.

I accept all the other opinions about him. Respectfully disagree, though.

Who did you want to draft? Don't tell me you wanted YET ANOTHER PF with Randle...

No, I think Randle is overrated.

I wanted to trade up to pick Dante Exum - as I said, I think he is going to develop better than Marcus, even if right now it doesn't seem so. Trade up only one spot: it was possible.

Stauskas also seemed better then.

And I thought we could trade down to get Nurkic and another asset.
It's nice seeing him get exposed as overrated after having argued with fellow fans for years that he was overrated.. but I don't hate him. I'm looking forward to seeing him [...] bounce around to a couple more teams... eventually come back to Boston[...] and helps us as a role player until he runs himself out of the league.
LarBrd33 on Rondo

Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2015, 04:54:50 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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I don't know how much some of you guys expect to see from a rookie.  I'm not sure where these studs are all throughout drafts that come in and are playing very well in their first year.  I'm not seeing them.

Also, you don't need to be an All Star to be good.
Its not that hard really.  You evaluate skill sets. And you expect to see flashes.  I see precious little of either in Smart.  At this point, he is a below average ball handler, below average court vision, below average quickness, below average athlete, below average shooter, below average getting to the rim, and below average finisher. And some of these won't change and most probably won't.

I agree with you. We are not allowed to criticize Smart around here. He is an amazing defender, but bad ball handler, not quick enough and maybe even not a PG. In my opinion he's a great guy to come off the bench and defend, not a starter and not a sixth pick. I didn't want to draft him, but now he's here. But we need another PG for the future in my opinion. I'd trade him for a good option.

I accept all the other opinions about him. Respectfully disagree, though.

Who did you want to draft? Don't tell me you wanted YET ANOTHER PF with Randle...

No, I think Randle is overrated.

I wanted to trade up to pick Dante Exum - as I said, I think he is going to develop better than Marcus, even if right now it doesn't seem so. Trade up only one spot: it was possible.

Stauskas also seemed better then.

And I thought we could trade down to get Nurkic and another asset.

Fair enough.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: marcus smart needs to earn starting pg duty
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2015, 05:16:36 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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I don't know how much some of you guys expect to see from a rookie.  I'm not sure where these studs are all throughout drafts that come in and are playing very well in their first year.  I'm not seeing them.

Also, you don't need to be an All Star to be good.
Its not that hard really.  You evaluate skill sets. And you expect to see flashes.  I see precious little of either in Smart.  At this point, he is a below average ball handler, below average court vision, below average quickness, below average athlete, below average shooter, below average getting to the rim, and below average finisher. And some of these won't change and most probably won't.

I'm not sure how you can call him a below-average athlete. How is he such an elite defender if he's not even average athletically?

He's shown the ability to be at least an above-average 3PT shooter, around 35% with modest improvements.

He's show the ability to get to the free throw line in college, and all of last month (5x 3PT, 4x FTS, 4x 2PT attempts per game).

He's shown leadership and ability to play within a system (see: low usage and most of his offense coming from the free throw and 3PT lines).

Is he a work in progress? Absolutely. But saying that he "probably won't" improve is a pretty wild conjecture. It would be atypical if a highly touted, hard-working, 20 year-old point guard *didn't* improve noticeably past his first 50 or so NBA games. Of course we could always trade him, Chauncey Billups style.

I have to imagine if Smart was scoring 20 points per night and playing lousy defense, we'd be raving about how all he has to do is learn to defend.
He's a lumbering, unexplosive, non-quick athlete (who happens to be very strong and quick laterally).  So yes, give him credit for his defensive skill set.  But there have been plenty of players that were very good defenders but yet not particularly athletic.  Too many to name really.