Author Topic: Frustrated  (Read 13368 times)

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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2015, 11:24:59 PM »

Offline MBunge

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I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

When did it work for the Celtics?

The Spurs did not tank to get Duncan.  The Warriors tanked to get Steph Curry? Nonsense.

In order:

-When the Celtics 'shut Pierce down' for the year, that was tanking. If they don't shut down Pierce, they don't get the fifth pick. No fifth pick, no Ray Allen, no Ray Allen no KG, no KG no team made competitive in the long term by actively discouraging wins in the present.

Hold it.  Boston tanked their way to the second worst record in the league but got the fifth pick in the draft, which was the lowest pick they could have possibly gotten.  That Ainge was able to make chicken salad out of chicken bleep doesn't change the fact that effort at tanking was an absolute failure.

And if Boston was really tanking like Philly, they wouldn't have just shut Pierce down.  They would have traded him for a future pick. 

Mike
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 11:30:41 PM by MBunge »

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2015, 11:30:11 PM »

Offline MBunge

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"Franchise Players" that won  a ring for the Franchise which drafted them since 2000:

Kobe Bryant (13th Pick) (not drafted by lakers)
Tim Duncan (1st Pick)
Dwayne Wade (5th Pick)
Dirk Nowitzki (9th Pick)
Paul Pierce (10th) (only with help of KG(FA))

Thats 1 player every 3+ years! While this are all lottery picks, Duncan is the only real top pick in over a decade. No reason to dump everyone who is talented and suck like hell just to have a 0,x% higher chance of a franchiseplayer
Yes. Because if you don't win the championship, there is really no difference whether you made it to the NBA finals or were last in your division.  ::)

Championship or bust is the primary justification given for tanking.

Mike

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2015, 02:48:29 AM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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If Rondo, Green and Nelson were doing this much overachieving while trying their [dang]edest for an eighth seed, I would probably be upset. But this is CBS getting these young guys to buy in, squeezing every bit of talent they have out of them, and establishing a culture for the way he wants his team to do business.

When you can get IT for basically nothing, you have to do it. Despite what you may believe, Thomas is on one of the best non-rookie contracts in the NBA considering his talent, age and production. And you take chances on guys like Turner for cheap money because they're guys who are low risk high reward. When your rebuilding, you take chances on still young ex-lottery picks just to see if a change of scenery can bring that talent out. These are moves any smart GM will make because it's all about value. There's more than one way to get better. The best idea is maintaining the flexibility to have a hand in all the games.

Danny has draft picks up the wazoo, including being in the amazing position of having another franchise losing on our behalf. One or two of those Brooklyn picks will likely be in the lottery. We have possible lottery picks, mid round picks, late round picks, early 2nd round picks, all in the next few years. Danny can draft a high-caliber player in the top 10 , which is probably where we end up this year in all honesty. He can combine picks and move up. He can trade a pick this year to a team targeting someone specific for a better pick or multiple picks later. Package them in a deal for a superstar, or whatever it may be Danny is better prepared than anyone in that department.

We have future financial flexibility. We will certainly have money to spend in the next few years should the right opportunity to sign a free agent arise. I'd like to see them make a run an DeAndre Jordan this year, improbable as it may be.

 And we have good, young players who we can either keep developing or look to package in a deal. Thomas and Bradley are on very tradable deals. KO and Sullinger are talented, intriguing pieces a lot of teams wouldn't mind having. Smart is very highly regarded around the league for a rookie. Young is clearly an NBA level talent.

Boston is in as good of a position as any franchise that's in a rebuild. Appreciate it, many fans would kill to have Danny Ainge as their GM

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2015, 01:59:11 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

When did it work for the Celtics?

The Spurs did not tank to get Duncan.  The Warriors tanked to get Steph Curry? Nonsense.

In order:

-When the Celtics 'shut Pierce down' for the year, that was tanking. If they don't shut down Pierce, they don't get the fifth pick. No fifth pick, no Ray Allen, no Ray Allen no KG, no KG no team made competitive in the long term by actively discouraging wins in the present.

Hold it.  Boston tanked their way to the second worst record in the league but got the fifth pick in the draft, which was the lowest pick they could have possibly gotten.  That Ainge was able to make chicken salad out of chicken bleep doesn't change the fact that effort at tanking was an absolute failure.

And if Boston was really tanking like Philly, they wouldn't have just shut Pierce down.  They would have traded him for a future pick. 

Mike

Who said tanking like Philly was the only way to tank? That's shifted goalposts right there.

Also, tanking isn't tanking just because you succeed at it. Again, you're arguing against a point I'm not making.
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Re: Frustrated
« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2015, 02:37:20 PM »

Offline MBunge

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I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

When did it work for the Celtics?

The Spurs did not tank to get Duncan.  The Warriors tanked to get Steph Curry? Nonsense.

In order:

-When the Celtics 'shut Pierce down' for the year, that was tanking. If they don't shut down Pierce, they don't get the fifth pick. No fifth pick, no Ray Allen, no Ray Allen no KG, no KG no team made competitive in the long term by actively discouraging wins in the present.

Hold it.  Boston tanked their way to the second worst record in the league but got the fifth pick in the draft, which was the lowest pick they could have possibly gotten.  That Ainge was able to make chicken salad out of chicken bleep doesn't change the fact that effort at tanking was an absolute failure.

And if Boston was really tanking like Philly, they wouldn't have just shut Pierce down.  They would have traded him for a future pick. 

Mike

Who said tanking like Philly was the only way to tank? That's shifted goalposts right there.

Also, tanking isn't tanking just because you succeed at it. Again, you're arguing against a point I'm not making.

Nobody really cares about tanking as it has normally been done in the NBA.  Nobody really argues against going young or shutting down a star player when a season is lost or trading vets for draft picks.  Almost every team in the league has done that.

The argument is over what Philly is doing, which is light years beyond what any other team has done.

And the argument you were making is that tanking "worked" for Boston when the reality is that particular tanking effort was an almost total failure.  That Ainge recovered by pulling one of the biggest rabbits in history out of his hat doesn't change that.

Mike

Re: Frustrated
« Reply #65 on: March 01, 2015, 04:23:16 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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"Franchise Players" that won  a ring for the Franchise which drafted them since 2000:

Kobe Bryant (13th Pick) (not drafted by lakers)
Tim Duncan (1st Pick)
Dwayne Wade (5th Pick)
Dirk Nowitzki (9th Pick)
Paul Pierce (10th) (only with help of KG(FA))

Thats 1 player every 3+ years! While this are all lottery picks, Duncan is the only real top pick in over a decade. No reason to dump everyone who is talented and suck like hell just to have a 0,x% higher chance of a franchiseplayer
Yes. Because if you don't win the championship, there is really no difference whether you made it to the NBA finals or were last in your division.  ::)

Championship or bust is the primary justification given for tanking.
Which, sadly, can never be guaranteed even if you have an excellent team. Which means this method of evaluation is kaput.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."