Frustrated

[JBone4eva]

Don't get me wrong, I love Danny. I love that he was a former player on perhaps the greatest nba team assembled. I love the job he has done getting us banner 17 and making us relevant again, but I'm frustrated with his decisions in the past season.

I'm not pro tanking in purposely trying to lose or giving away assets like the Sixers had done, but his strategy this season have stopped us from becoming a 'true' contender again.

If we were the Charlotte Hornets, being competitive is a great thing but the Boston Celtics are a franchise that unless your a true contender or in full rebuild mode, its a bust season.

By bringing in guys like Thornton, Thomas and Turner, Ainge has turned us into a middle of the pack team. Thomas is a fantastic player but he's the type of guy who's a 'phase two' player. Similar to the Cavs getting Mozgov, Shump and J.R Smith, Thomas should be brought in when your foundation player/players have been established not before. If you look at the history of teams with franchise guys they were all picked up from top draft pick positions. When the Cavs got Lebron they had the tied worst record, when the Magic got Howard they had the worst, Clippers and Griffin 2nd worst and New Orleans and Davis 3rd worst, ect. We need a bad season to regroup.

I also understand Danny has cleared a lot of cap room but for me this is not the place we can get a cornerstone guy from. Only two teams in recent history have picked up franchise guys through free agency and thats LA with Shaq and Miami with Lebron and Bosh but in both instances they already drafted their franchise guy in Kobe and D Wade.

The path he's putting us on is only slowing us down not speeding this process up and it has me frustrated. I apologise for this rant but I needed to blog off some steam lol

This is where I stopped reading.

[Boris Badenov]

I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

We do in fact have a current draft position. This is not a difficult thing to comprehend. Note the word "current." Note the word "position."

And your second statement is a total non sequitur. It has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Nor was I taking a position on whether what's changed is good or bad. I'm describing reality, which is that (like colin said above) the probabilities associated with different paths to success have changed.

No we actually don't have a draft position currently.  What was Cleveland's "draft position" last year at this time?  Where did they wind up picking? 

Well, the thing about using the word "current" is that it refers to today. Current draft position is what your position would be in the lottery/draft if the season ended today.

Our current draft position is 11th. The Knicks are 1st. Golden State is 30th.

Actual pick order in the 2015 draft will, as anyone with a passing familiarity with the game understands, be different due to performance over the rest of the season and the draft lottery.

Nonetheless, in what seemingly comes as a complete shock to you, current draft position contains information. If you think about it hard enough, you might be able to perceive that even as of today, the Knicks and Golden State have different probabilities of getting the #1 pick in the 2015 draft.

Ours is somewhere in between, but has been falling as our draft position has fallen over the past few weeks.

[j804]

It's amazing how much flack Danny is still getting. We win and there's complainers. Smh

[jyyzzoel]

They haven't pigeonholed themselves into the the peg of a true treadmill team, though.

Their cap situation is extremely fluid going forward, they're young, and they have plenty of assets at their disposal.

This isn't the case of a team hitting a glass ceiling of 6, 7, 8 seed because they're filled with veteran, established talent or in cap hell for the next 2 to 3 seasons.

They have plenty of promise to continue to rebuild by trades & free agency.   This organization is not hitting the wall of mediocrity with little manueverability (sp?) in the near future.

It's been a multi-year rebuild all along.  They're actually probably a bit ahead of schedule, in fact.

I understand its a long process and Ainge as accrued lots of young assets but its the Thomas and Turner moves that have me frustrated as these guys are slightly expensive, taking minutes from rookie who need them and are pushing us out of a true 'franchise guy' possibility.

if you think isaiah thomas is on an expensive contract you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. isaiah thomas is on one of the best contracts in the entire league for someone not on a rookie deal. evan turner is on a fair contract. i cannot believe you think isaiah thomas is on an expensive contract. blows my mind... oh and larry bird wasn't that good of a player 

[GreenWarrior]

I wish we could all be a little realistic. yeah that game was fun as hell yesterday and overall this team has been entertaining to watch this yr.

but the reality is, the only reason this team is talking playoffs is because of the state of the east more than anything.

and if and when we don't make the playoffs those wins we did get are going to feel equally as empty as not making the playoffs. just missing the playoffs is the worst position to be in on a rebuilding team in this league.

everyone can point to Atlanta and hope to be them...but they haven't done anything yet.

[PAOBoston]

I wish we could all be a little realistic. yeah that game was fun as hell yesterday and overall this team has been entertaining to watch this yr.

but the reality is, the only reason this team is talking playoffs is because of the state of the east more than anything.

and if and when we don't make the playoffs those wins we did get are going to feel equally as empty as not making the playoffs. just missing the playoffs is the worst position to be in on a rebuilding team in this league.

everyone can point to Atlanta and hope to be them...but they haven't done anything yet.

So what would you have them do? Lose on purpose? They traded away their best 2 players (on paper at least) in Rondo and Green. They got rid of extra veterans like Thornton and Prince. They lost Sullinger for the rest of the season due to injury. They've still won 7 of 10 with a bunch of young players, spare parts they traded for, and legitimately one viable center option on the roster. It is what it is. If the make the playoffs, great. If they don't, they'll probably pick somewhere in the 10-14 range. They still have oodles of picks and enough cap space to help improve the team.

[j804]

Why don't you guys go be Philly fans then?

[Ilikesports17]

1    NOH    Anthony Davis    University of Kentucky
2    CHA    Michael Kidd-Gilchrist    University of Kentucky
3    WAS    Bradley Beal    University of Florida
4    CLE    Dion Waiters    Syracuse University
5    SAC    Thomas Robinson    University of Kansas

1   CLE   Kyrie Irving   Duke
2   MIN   Derrick Williams   Arizona
3   UTA   Enes Kanter   Turkey
4   CLE   Tristan Thompson   Texas
5   TOR   Jonas Valanciunas   Lithuania

1   WAS   John Wall   Kentucky
2   PHI   Evan Turner   Ohio State
3   NJN   Derrick Favors   Georgia Tech
4   MIN   Wesley Johnson   Syracuse
5   SAC   DeMarcus Cousins   Kentucky

2009
1   LAC   Blake Griffin   Oklahoma
2   MEM   Hasheem Thabeet   Connecticut
3   OKC   James Harden   Arizona State
4   SAC   Tyreke Evans   Memphis
5   MIN   Ricky Rubio   Spain
2008
1   CHI   Derrick Rose   Memphis
2   MIA   Michael Beasley   Kansas State
3   MIN   O.J. Mayo   Southern California
4   SEA   Russell Westbrook   UCLA
5   MEM   Kevin Love   UCLA[/b]
2007
1   POR   Greg Oden   Ohio State
2   SEA   Kevin Durant   Texas
3   ATL   Al Horford   Florida
4   MEM   Mike Conley   Ohio State
5   BOS   Jeff Green   Georgetown
2006
1. Andrea Bargnani, Italy Toronto
2.LaMarcus Aldridge, Texas Chicago
3.Adam Morrison, Gonzaga Charlotte
4.Tyrus Thomas, Louisiana State Portland
5.Shelden Williams, Duke Atlanta

By my count that is 10 stars and 10 busts over 35 top picks from 2012 to 2006. I may have missed a few as you could argue favors, Conley and Horford are all stars and also MKG and Waiters could be argued as busts, but of this group only the OKC trio have led their teams to championships. I didnt include the last two drafs because I think it is premature but for what its worth 2013 looks like 3 busts and 0 stars to me and 2014 could have up to 5 stars, but wiggins and Parker seem like the best bets. And exum and Embiid could be busts.

Tanking is probably the easiest route to a star but a top 5 pick does not guarantee you a star. Top 3 is pretty good odds, but then you are relying on ping pong balls and that can kill you.

Also with so many teams tanking its tough to out tank teams. We got PP at 10 Indiana got Paul George at 10 Ainge has drafted Big Al and Rondo late in the first. All is not lost if we pick at 15 instead of 5 this year. In my oppinion Id rather add some solid players (isiah) and see the team develop then suck on purpose and marginally increase the odds of getting a star. (over those 14 4th and 5th picks I count 2 stars at 4/5)

TP for the research

I looked at the top 4 in each conference:
Atlanta:  Horford pick 4, Teague pick 19, Millsapp (FA)
Toronto: Lowry Trade, Derozan pick 9, Valunciunas pick 5
Chicago: Rose 1, Gasol FA, Butler 30, Noah 9
Cleveland:James FA, Irving 1, Love trade (took #1 pick)
Golden State: Curry 7, Thompson 11, Green 35
Memphis: Gasol Trade, Randolph Trade, Conley 4
Houston: Harden Trade, Howard FA
Portland: Aldridge 2, Lilliard 6

Honestly Im not sure what to make of this. Nearly all of these teams (except the rockets) has had to find a star in the top 10, and based on your research a there is usually 1 star to be had in the top 5.

Im against tanking but Im aware that if in 06 we had pick # 15 instead of # 5 we dont get Ray, the we dont get KG then we dont get banner 17.

I could see Smart becoming that star but I certainly wouldnt bet on it. We need to knock our #1 out of the park this year and same with brooklyn '16 as I suspect that to be around pick #10 as well. If we do that we will be fine.

[mctyson]

It's amazing how much flack Danny is still getting. We win and there's complainers. Smh

EXACTLY.  TP for you.

[mctyson]

Atlanta was .500 team the past two seasons, bounced in the first round both times.  Seemingly going nowhere.

Shrewd management, good coaching, a good value draft pick, and a couple established veteran signings and what do we have??  A championship contender.

No tanking required. 

[Ilikesports17]

I wish we could all be a little realistic. yeah that game was fun as hell yesterday and overall this team has been entertaining to watch this yr.

but the reality is, the only reason this team is talking playoffs is because of the state of the east more than anything.

and if and when we don't make the playoffs those wins we did get are going to feel equally as empty as not making the playoffs. just missing the playoffs is the worst position to be in on a rebuilding team in this league.

everyone can point to Atlanta and hope to be them...but they haven't done anything yet.

I disagree, missing it by a game in the East projects as the #12 pick right now. Armed with a bunch of late 1s and early 2s over the next 3 years Danny could easily move up to as high as 7 or 8. this 7-12 range is very underrated from 2009-2012 (i figured we cant really judge 2013 or 14 yet) this range has produced Paul George Greg Monroe Gordon Hayward Demar Derozan Brandon Jennings Kemba Walker Andre Drummond and Klay Thompson. I would say thats 4 stars and 4 very good players. If you look at Mahcus Smahts post I would say that the top 5 over those same 4 drafts has produced 10 stars/very good players and if you take out # 1 picks that number gets a lot smaller. I dont think you can ever expect to win the #1 pick so the odds of grabbing a good player are shockingly similar from 7-12 and 2-5 (.4 good players per pick from 7-12 to .5 good players per pick from 2-5)

In missing the playoffs by a bit, you still get to roll the lottery dice, and you still get a top 12 pick, but you also dont gut your roster. If we are tanking we dont get to bring in Isiah and his awesome contract. We dont get to see our players grow in meaningful games that a playoff stretch provides. games like last nights are incredibly valuable for everyone from Smart to Stevens to Ainge as he got to see who will step up in big games, who he wants to keep around when we make the leap to real contention.

[kozlodoev]

I understand its a long process and Ainge as accrued lots of young assets but its the Thomas and Turner moves that have me frustrated as these guys are slightly expensive, taking minutes from rookie who need them and are pushing us out of a true 'franchise guy' possibility.

Turner is "slightly expensive"?! He's signed for $3 million, which is the NBA equivalent of chump change.

[jonaslopes]

It's amazing how much flack Danny is still getting. We win and there's complainers. Smh

Just a matter of age. An issue around here.

[Ilikesports17]

I understand its a long process and Ainge as accrued lots of young assets but its the Thomas and Turner moves that have me frustrated as these guys are slightly expensive, taking minutes from rookie who need them and are pushing us out of a true 'franchise guy' possibility.

Turner is "slightly expensive"?! He's signed for $3 million, which is the NBA equivalent of chump change.

I can see getting upset about Turner starting and taking minutes, but not his contract and if you look at it the only other SF we have is really Jae Crowder and James Young whom are both getting enough minutes as it is (i think 15 a game for James is perfect rn)

And getting mad about adding a 25 year old guy who can get 30 on any given night for less than 7 mil fo the next 3 years makes no sense whatsoever.

Who do you want to get more minutes? Marcus gets 29 mpg since Isaiahs arrival, Young has gotten 14 mpg what more do you want? honest question, i am genuinely curious who you think should be developing with Isaiah and ETs minutes.

[D.o.s.]

I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

When did it work for the Celtics?

The Spurs did not tank to get Duncan.  The Warriors tanked to get Steph Curry? Nonsense.

In order:

-When the Celtics 'shut Pierce down' for the year, that was tanking. If they don't shut down Pierce, they don't get the fifth pick. No fifth pick, no Ray Allen, no Ray Allen no KG, no KG no team made competitive in the long term by actively discouraging wins in the present.

-If you don't think the Spurs didn't tank for Duncan you clearly were not paying attention.

-Who said anything about Steph Curry? When the Warriors traded Monta Ellis for an already out for the season Andrew Bogut, sat David Lee with a "groin pull" for the whole season and played Mikki Moore 35 minutes a game to protect their 2012 draft pick, which was only top 7 protected, and otherwise going to New Jersey(?) that was tanking.

The idea that tanking can only be defined as such when a franchise only sacrifices the most competitive product on the floor possible when it nets them a franchise superstar is nonsense.