Frustrated

[kraidstar]

I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

don't forget the heat (wade), the cavs (lebron), hawks (horford), clips (blake), blazers (aldridge, lillard), wiz (wall, beal), bulls (rose), thunder (westbrook, durant, ibaka, harden), pelicans (davis). even memphis was bad, which got them pau, which got them marc gasol... 
soon we'll be adding milwaukee, minny, and the current boston squad to the list.

but CLEARLY it never works.

and BTW, "tanking" is merely a choice by a GM and ownership that they want to build through the draft and youth, and not older vets who won't be with the team long-term. it's not really that scandalous at all, the players are certainly still trying.

[e4sym0de]

"Franchise Players" that won  a ring for the Franchise which drafted them since 2000:

Kobe Bryant (13th Pick) (not drafted by lakers)
Tim Duncan (1st Pick)
Dwayne Wade (5th Pick)
Dirk Nowitzki (9th Pick)
Paul Pierce (10th) (only with help of KG(FA))

Thats 1 player every 3+ years! While this are all lottery picks, Duncan is the only real top pick in over a decade. No reason to dump everyone who is talented and suck like hell just to have a 0,x% higher chance of a franchiseplayer

[Chris22]

"Franchise Players" that won  a ring for the Franchise which drafted them since 2000:

Kobe Bryant (13th Pick) (not drafted by lakers)
Tim Duncan (1st Pick)
Dwayne Wade (5th Pick)
Dirk Nowitzki (9th Pick)
Paul Pierce (10th) (only with help of KG(FA))

Thats 1 player every 3+ years! While this are all lottery picks, Duncan is the only real top pick in over a decade. No reason to dump everyone who is talented and suck like hell just to have a 0,x% higher chance of a franchiseplayer

Duncan and Kobe won multiple times, although Shaq should get some credit for some of the Kobe wins.

[MBunge]

I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

Yeah, tanking for Tim Duncan worked out great for Boston.

Mike

[kraidstar]

to the OP:

IMO every move except the thomas trade theoretically should have made the c's worse. danny dumped KG, PP, rondo, green, crawford, prince, hump, wright, bynum, the list goes on and on.

the truth is that the young players have developed ahead of schedule, and guys like crowder and jerebko have turned out to be a lot better than we thought.

hard to envision so many guys stepping up at once, it's remarkable how quickly danny has assembled a solid young team. if we can resign our free agents for cheap that helps offset the sting of losing draft position. we also have the brooklyn picks to fall back on, those should be VERY valuable, and we simply have a ton of assets for future flexibility.

we'll be alright.

[Greyman]

The C's glut of young players like Bradley, Smart, and Zeller have shown improvement this season. The players they have gotten in trades for Rondo/Green/Thornton/Prince have shown they can play and fit in well in CBS' system. They have tons of draft picks. They have trade exceptions. They could have a lot of cap space this year and next. They have a good up and coming coach. They have a top GM. There is nothing to be frustrated about. They are on the right path.

This makes more sense to me than being frustrated about not doing things the way this team or that team rebuilt in the past. I think we are set so that 2/3 moves will make us relevant.

[MBunge]

I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

don't forget the heat (wade), the cavs (lebron), hawks (horford), clips (blake), blazers (aldridge, lillard), wiz (wall, beal), bulls (rose), thunder (westbrook, durant, ibaka, harden), pelicans (davis). even memphis was bad, which got them pau, which got them marc gasol... 
soon we'll be adding milwaukee, minny, and the current boston squad to the list.

but CLEARLY it never works.

and BTW, "tanking" is merely a choice by a GM and ownership that they want to build through the draft and youth, and not older vets who won't be with the team long-term. it's not really that scandalous at all, the players are certainly still trying.

And here's another problem with pro-tankers.  They bolster their case by lumping every team that got a good player in the draft in the tanking column.  But that's not the case.

For example, OKC was tanking when they got Westbrook and Harden, though nowhere near as bad as Philly.  However, OKC did not tank to get Durant and did not tank to get Ibaka.  I'm pretty sure a few of those other examples also don't qualify as tanking.

And no, tanking is NOT just building through the draft and youth.  That's not what Boston was doing when they were tanking to try and get Duncan.

Mike

[danglertx]

A lot of teams aren't or didn't tank, they just are bad compared to the rest of the league or young.  Look at the Spurs, they didn't tank for Duncan, we did.  But they put some good late first round draft choices together and coached up some players and BAM, great team. 

Eventually if you are bad year after year after year, you will eventually luck into a franchise player, but that isn't guaranteeing you a ring.  Take the Clips.  They got lucky on getting Paul in a trade, drafted Blake after stinking for so many years they were the joke of sports, drafted well getting Jordon late and they STILL probably won't win a championship.

The way to do it, it seems to me, is to do what Danny is doing.  Get tons of assets, give them time to grow, and hope a couple of those assets can net you a franchise guy in a trade and pick up another one in free agency. 

[Celtics18]

I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

don't forget the heat (wade), the cavs (lebron), hawks (horford), clips (blake), blazers (aldridge, lillard), wiz (wall, beal), bulls (rose), thunder (westbrook, durant, ibaka, harden), pelicans (davis). even memphis was bad, which got them pau, which got them marc gasol... 
soon we'll be adding milwaukee, minny, and the current boston squad to the list.

but CLEARLY it never works.

and BTW, "tanking" is merely a choice by a GM and ownership that they want to build through the draft and youth, and not older vets who won't be with the team long-term. it's not really that scandalous at all, the players are certainly still trying.

I don't think anyone really has a problem building "through the draft and youth." 

However, when the team starts winning a few games, inevitably there are some fans who complain that we are blowing the tank and our draft position.  Those fans seem to be clamoring for a more cynical version of tanking than just rebuilding with youth and the draft.

[PAOBoston]

The C's glut of young players like Bradley, Smart, and Zeller have shown improvement this season. The players they have gotten in trades for Rondo/Green/Thornton/Prince have shown they can play and fit in well in CBS' system. They have tons of draft picks. They have trade exceptions. They could have a lot of cap space this year and next. They have a good up and coming coach. They have a top GM. There is nothing to be frustrated about. They are on the right path.

This makes more sense to me than being frustrated about not doing things the way this team or that team rebuilt in the past. I think we are set so that 2/3 moves will make us relevant.

I agree. What they really need is a SF and a C. I think they are set at PF and guard positions. They have the assets to fill those needs through FA/trades. I would love to see them land Deandre Jordan in the offseason. He would solve a lot of problems for them.

[mctyson]

I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

When did it work for the Celtics?

The Spurs did not tank to get Duncan.  The Warriors tanked to get Steph Curry? Nonsense.

[kozlodoev]

"Franchise Players" that won  a ring for the Franchise which drafted them since 2000:

Kobe Bryant (13th Pick) (not drafted by lakers)
Tim Duncan (1st Pick)
Dwayne Wade (5th Pick)
Dirk Nowitzki (9th Pick)
Paul Pierce (10th) (only with help of KG(FA))

Thats 1 player every 3+ years! While this are all lottery picks, Duncan is the only real top pick in over a decade. No reason to dump everyone who is talented and suck like hell just to have a 0,x% higher chance of a franchiseplayer

Yes. Because if you don't win the championship, there is really no difference whether you made it to the NBA finals or were last in your division. 

[mctyson]

I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

We do in fact have a current draft position. This is not a difficult thing to comprehend. Note the word "current." Note the word "position."

And your second statement is a total non sequitur. It has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Nor was I taking a position on whether what's changed is good or bad. I'm describing reality, which is that (like colin said above) the probabilities associated with different paths to success have changed.

No we actually don't have a draft position currently.  What was Cleveland's "draft position" last year at this time?  Where did they wind up picking? 

Further, your statement was suggesting that our GM has limited this team's ability to rebuild through the draft or trades because he has positioned the team to perform better (essentially what the OP wrote about).  You are implying that we are worse off, because we have lower odds of getting a higher draft pick, which of course is the best way to win an NBA championship....

Go look at the 1998 draft.  Drafting right is what wins championships.

[mctyson]

I do think Danny's actions have pushed us away from a completely flexible "rebuild through draft or trades" approach and more toward a less flexible "rebuild through trades" approach. It's exceedingly unlikely that we'll get a franchise guy in the draft, given our current draft position.

We don't have a draft position.  Draft positions don't happen until the draft. 

The tanking logic of Celtics fans is really troublesome. Tanking has NEVER worked for any team.

Worked pretty well for the Rockets. And the Spurs. And the Celtics. And the Warriors.

don't forget the heat (wade), the cavs (lebron), hawks (horford), clips (blake), blazers (aldridge, lillard), wiz (wall, beal), bulls (rose), thunder (westbrook, durant, ibaka, harden), pelicans (davis). even memphis was bad, which got them pau, which got them marc gasol... 
soon we'll be adding milwaukee, minny, and the current boston squad to the list.

but CLEARLY it never works.

and BTW, "tanking" is merely a choice by a GM and ownership that they want to build through the draft and youth, and not older vets who won't be with the team long-term. it's not really that scandalous at all, the players are certainly still trying.

For every team you can cite that drafted a guy #1-10 that became a franchise player, I can give you at least two that massively failed, every year.

"Never" is the wrong word to describe losing more to draft higher as a strategy for building a team.  So instead I will say that it is a terrible idea.

[mahcus smaht]

1    NOH    Anthony Davis    University of Kentucky
2    CHA    Michael Kidd-Gilchrist    University of Kentucky
3    WAS    Bradley Beal    University of Florida
4    CLE    Dion Waiters    Syracuse University
5    SAC    Thomas Robinson    University of Kansas

1   CLE   Kyrie Irving   Duke
2   MIN   Derrick Williams   Arizona
3   UTA   Enes Kanter   Turkey
4   CLE   Tristan Thompson   Texas
5   TOR   Jonas Valanciunas   Lithuania

1   WAS   John Wall   Kentucky
2   PHI   Evan Turner   Ohio State
3   NJN   Derrick Favors   Georgia Tech
4   MIN   Wesley Johnson   Syracuse
5   SAC   DeMarcus Cousins   Kentucky

2009
1   LAC   Blake Griffin   Oklahoma
2   MEM   Hasheem Thabeet   Connecticut
3   OKC   James Harden   Arizona State
4   SAC   Tyreke Evans   Memphis
5   MIN   Ricky Rubio   Spain
2008
1   CHI   Derrick Rose   Memphis
2   MIA   Michael Beasley   Kansas State
3   MIN   O.J. Mayo   Southern California
4   SEA   Russell Westbrook   UCLA
5   MEM   Kevin Love   UCLA[/b]
2007
1   POR   Greg Oden   Ohio State
2   SEA   Kevin Durant   Texas
3   ATL   Al Horford   Florida
4   MEM   Mike Conley   Ohio State
5   BOS   Jeff Green   Georgetown
2006
1. Andrea Bargnani, Italy Toronto
2.LaMarcus Aldridge, Texas Chicago
3.Adam Morrison, Gonzaga Charlotte
4.Tyrus Thomas, Louisiana State Portland
5.Shelden Williams, Duke Atlanta

By my count that is 10 stars and 10 busts over 35 top picks from 2012 to 2006. I may have missed a few as you could argue favors, Conley and Horford are all stars and also MKG and Waiters could be argued as busts, but of this group only the OKC trio have led their teams to championships. I didnt include the last two drafs because I think it is premature but for what its worth 2013 looks like 3 busts and 0 stars to me and 2014 could have up to 5 stars, but wiggins and Parker seem like the best bets. And exum and Embiid could be busts.

Tanking is probably the easiest route to a star but a top 5 pick does not guarantee you a star. Top 3 is pretty good odds, but then you are relying on ping pong balls and that can kill you.

Also with so many teams tanking its tough to out tank teams. We got PP at 10 Indiana got Paul George at 10 Ainge has drafted Big Al and Rondo late in the first. All is not lost if we pick at 15 instead of 5 this year. In my oppinion Id rather add some solid players (isiah) and see the team develop then suck on purpose and marginally increase the odds of getting a star. (over those 14 4th and 5th picks I count 2 stars at 4/5)