Author Topic: punish the tankers  (Read 6815 times)

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Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2015, 09:19:50 AM »

Online Vermont Green

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yes I do agree though that tankers should be punished, but just implement a system where the odds are levelled slightly say for the worst 4 teams in the league, they should all have the same odds of bagging the number 1 pick, then the next 5 teams also with the same odds. then the final 6 teams with the same odds, this way the tankers will not have much incentive but to compete..then the following year, the team that gets the number 1 pick is not eligible for the number 1 but only for the number 2.

That would be very good.
There is no perfect system.  In this case as described, teams would tank if they were on the bubble between 4 and 5 or where ever the cut off was.  You could do a rolling scheme where the #1 pick was pulled out of the top 5 and then the number #2 from the remaining 4 plus the 6th or something like that.

I think there also could be something to limit repeat tankers.  I know each year the draft has more or less value but if you are in the bottom 5 for one year, you can't be in it again.  You automatically go to the 6th slot or something like that.

Other than that, the league should just deal with the bad franchises by threatening to move them or fire the entire management.  I think they could apply more muscle that way than trying to manipulate it through the draft/lottery rules

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2015, 09:24:59 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Punishing teams that "throw games away ". Or planned destruction just to archive a higher pick is not sporting  .....punishment ..is justified

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2015, 09:54:25 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Tanking has become such an overused term that it's basically meaningless, especially since it's replaced what used to be called "rebuilding".

What Philly is doing is fairly unprecedented in its scope, but they also haven't won a single lottery and it's very dubious whether it'll pay off.  The Knicks blew up their team midseason once it was clear Carmelo would need surgery and the team was bad even when he was playing. Other than them I don't see anyone actively trying to bottom out, just a lot of fans throwing the term around at the drop of a hat.

I think it is maybe a little different right now because there is also the impending increase in salary cap and teams are more wary of taking on any future contracts until they know what the number is. I think in past seasons we have seen the Knicks, in a similar situation, make trades for guys like Marbury, Francis etc midseason and still were putting at least a somewhat entertaining product on the floor.. While the end of seasons have always featured dubious lineups and mystery ailments for star players, it seems like that stuff is happening earlier and earlier in the season.

Also with some GMs wising up (perhaps after cleveland won the lottery with the clippers unprotected pick) all picks that are traded now have certain degrees of protection. At least it seems that way to me, haven't researched whether that is true. So you have a team like the Lakers that has a crazy incentive to be bad or they completely lose their pick after an awful season. I think they probably need to get rid of pick protections as a start. Either trade first rounders or don't.

These are good points.  I think one thing that really has changed from top to bottom is that teams are increasingly treating the regular season as a formality.  Healthy rest has gone from something extraordinary to the norm.  I blame Pop for that one  ;). Since reducing the number of games isn't going to happen, I hope they go ahead and lengthen the season to add more rest days.

Pick protections are also adding some perverse incentives to the system.  I don't know if I'd eliminate them, but at least some standard rules would help.

The basketball regular season is irrelevant in this new competitive landscape. Fans want contests that are events, when the outcome is actually meaningful. In football, almost every game means something because there are only 16 games and the playoff system is lose and you're out. Even with a fraction of games played compared to the other leagues, their business is thriving. In European soccer leagues, the "regular season" is actually their championship, so the games always matter regardless of whether the opponent is the bottom of the rung or a top team. This ensures that every contest is significant.

Contrast that with the NBA where compared to the other leagues the most teams (16) make the playoffs. In fact, more teams make the playoffs than not (14)! At least in baseball you cannot slumber through the regular season because only 3 teams make the playoffs outright and 2 have that stupid wild card playoff (edit: I forgot to say in each "league," AL and NL). Going through an extended slump during the baseball season makes it very difficult to get into the playoffs.

I've said it countless times but the main problem is that there are too many teams. Basketball is the sport with the least emphasis on team play over individual talent. The elite players are only so few and every team is trying to get them. For many teams the best way to do so is by entering the lottery and hoping for some fortune. Otherwise, for many small-market teams the odds of getting a franchise talent who is also willing to re-sign long term to your team is very small.

What percentage of teams that make the playoffs actually have a shot at winning the title? This year it may be as high as 50% but in typical years the percentage is much lower. How come other leagues do just fine with less playoff teams but a higher percentage chance that each one has a shot at winning? Obviously not every team that makes the playoffs in any sport has a realistic chance at a title, but at least it usually means you are on the right track. The NBA playoffs now include teams that could be considered worse off than ones in the lottery, which is why you've got teams who don't even want to make the playoffs.

Not to mention the new CBA rules have made it 1) harder for struggling teams to get a good return on their departing stars and 2) made stars impossible to extend while under contract since going to free agency is more financially lucrative. So the odds are stacked against the small market teams once again.

There are some positive trends though. Rule changes have made teams like the Spurs, Hawks, and may even the future Celtics competitive without a clear cut MVP-level star in their lineup. However, we don't know for sure how fluky the Spurs title last year may prove to be. It could be that in the playoffs the quantity-not-quality depth that helps in the regular season does not translate as much. The playoffs are a different beast than the regular season. The other positive is the proposed playoff seeding reform that will ensure the 16 best teams record-wise actually make the playoffs.

Other than that, I honestly don't know what feasible changes they could make since they will never reduce the number of games in the regular season and playoffs due to the revenue and TV contracts that restrict change. The wheel system is the only truly fair system but it would not even be able to be enacted until after all the future draft picks that have been traded or awarded. They could reduce the number of playoff teams and create some kind of alternative tournament for the lottery teams to make up that revenue, perhaps. Needless to say there are a lot of forces conspiring to prevent change but at least since Silver has taken over there is some discussion happening. The increase is intelligent basketball reporting, coinciding with the analytics movement is also shifting public awareness about these issues.

With the decline in baseball from public relevancy basketball is in a prime position to secure itself as the no. 2 sport. However, it needs to make some bold changes in the system to avoid complacency. The owners need to come together and be willing to vote against their own short term self-interest to strengthen the league. If they don't do that it doesn't really matter what Silver says as it's just going to die in the legislature.


Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2015, 10:04:17 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Tanking has become such an overused term that it's basically meaningless, especially since it's replaced what used to be called "rebuilding".

What Philly is doing is fairly unprecedented in its scope, but they also haven't won a single lottery and it's very dubious whether it'll pay off.  The Knicks blew up their team midseason once it was clear Carmelo would need surgery and the team was bad even when he was playing. Other than them I don't see anyone actively trying to bottom out, just a lot of fans throwing the term around at the drop of a hat.

I think it is maybe a little different right now because there is also the impending increase in salary cap and teams are more wary of taking on any future contracts until they know what the number is. I think in past seasons we have seen the Knicks, in a similar situation, make trades for guys like Marbury, Francis etc midseason and still were putting at least a somewhat entertaining product on the floor.. While the end of seasons have always featured dubious lineups and mystery ailments for star players, it seems like that stuff is happening earlier and earlier in the season.

Also with some GMs wising up (perhaps after cleveland won the lottery with the clippers unprotected pick) all picks that are traded now have certain degrees of protection. At least it seems that way to me, haven't researched whether that is true. So you have a team like the Lakers that has a crazy incentive to be bad or they completely lose their pick after an awful season. I think they probably need to get rid of pick protections as a start. Either trade first rounders or don't.

These are good points.  I think one thing that really has changed from top to bottom is that teams are increasingly treating the regular season as a formality.  Healthy rest has gone from something extraordinary to the norm.  I blame Pop for that one  ;). Since reducing the number of games isn't going to happen, I hope they go ahead and lengthen the season to add more rest days.

Pick protections are also adding some perverse incentives to the system.  I don't know if I'd eliminate them, but at least some standard rules would help.

The basketball regular season is irrelevant in this new competitive landscape. Fans want contests that are events, when the outcome is actually meaningful. In football, almost every game means something because there are only 16 games and the playoff system is lose and you're out. Even with a fraction of games played compared to the other leagues, their business is thriving. In European soccer leagues, the "regular season" is actually their championship, so the games always matter regardless of whether the opponent is the bottom of the rung or a top team. This ensures that every contest is significant.

Contrast that with the NBA where compared to the other leagues the most teams (16) make the playoffs. In fact, more teams make the playoffs than not (14)! At least in baseball you cannot slumber through the regular season because only 3 teams make the playoffs outright and 2 have that stupid wild card playoff (edit: I forgot to say in each "league," AL and NL). Going through an extended slump during the baseball season makes it very difficult to get into the playoffs.

I've said it countless times but the main problem is that there are too many teams. Basketball is the sport with the least emphasis on team play over individual talent. The elite players are only so few and every team is trying to get them. For many teams the best way to do so is by entering the lottery and hoping for some fortune. Otherwise, for many small-market teams the odds of getting a franchise talent who is also willing to re-sign long term to your team is very small.

What percentage of teams that make the playoffs actually have a shot at winning the title? This year it may be as high as 50% but in typical years the percentage is much lower. How come other leagues do just fine with less playoff teams but a higher percentage chance that each one has a shot at winning? Obviously not every team that makes the playoffs in any sport has a realistic chance at a title, but at least it usually means you are on the right track. The NBA playoffs now include teams that could be considered worse off than ones in the lottery, which is why you've got teams who don't even want to make the playoffs.

Not to mention the new CBA rules have made it 1) harder for struggling teams to get a good return on their departing stars and 2) made stars impossible to extend while under contract since going to free agency is more financially lucrative. So the odds are stacked against the small market teams once again.

There are some positive trends though. Rule changes have made teams like the Spurs, Hawks, and may even the future Celtics competitive without a clear cut MVP-level star in their lineup. However, we don't know for sure how fluky the Spurs title last year may prove to be. It could be that in the playoffs the quantity-not-quality depth that helps in the regular season does not translate as much. The playoffs are a different beast than the regular season. The other positive is the proposed playoff seeding reform that will ensure the 16 best teams record-wise actually make the playoffs.

Other than that, I honestly don't know what feasible changes they could make since they will never reduce the number of games in the regular season and playoffs due to the revenue and TV contracts that restrict change. The wheel system is the only truly fair system but it would not even be able to be enacted until after all the future draft picks that have been traded or awarded. They could reduce the number of playoff teams and create some kind of alternative tournament for the lottery teams to make up that revenue, perhaps. Needless to say there are a lot of forces conspiring to prevent change but at least since Silver has taken over there is some discussion happening. The increase is intelligent basketball reporting, coinciding with the analytics movement is also shifting public awareness about these issues.

With the decline in baseball from public relevancy basketball is in a prime position to secure itself as the no. 2 sport. However, it needs to make some bold changes in the system to avoid complacency. The owners need to come together and be willing to vote against their own short term self-interest to strengthen the league. If they don't do that it doesn't really matter what Silver says as it's just going to die in the legislature.

The winner of the regular season deserves more recognition and accolades than just the first seed in the playoffs. If the winner of the regular season is given a trophy and more praise this may reduce tanking and give more importance to the regular season. The regular season deserves more because it takes a different skill set to be successful in the regular season than the skillset necessary to be successful in the playoffs.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 10:36:14 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Tanking is way overrated as a topic.  The Bucks last year had the worst record, not because they were tanking, but because they just stunk.  They have a similar team this year, and are playing quite well.  This year's race to the bottom has four teams:  knicks, 76ers, Lakers, and Wolves.  Of those four, really only one is tanking.  The Knicks just stink.  The Lakers aren't much better.  Both of those teams have injured stars who are the two highest paid players in the game.  The Wolves have struggled because they're young, but they've also been without their best player (this year, not the long run) in Rubio for most of the season.  But if they'd been tanking as a strategy, there's no way they'd have traded a decent 1st round pick (from Miami) for Thad Young.

The lottery in itself punishes the tankers.  If this were football, the team with the worst record would get the first pick, and not merely a 25% chance at the first pick.  If they want to remove the protection of how far you can fall in the draft, and thus make it a lottery for every spot, that could be interesting, but it might encourage tanking more (because the more lottery balls you have the less far you are likely to fall.  It actually hurts the 6-10 range more than anyone else potentially).  Sam Hinkie is abusing the system, but until he puts together a winning team, I can't say he broke the system.  5 years out, if the 6ers still stink, I can't imagine many owners saying "yes, let's do this."

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2015, 10:41:10 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I think a team that tanks all the time and trades away its assets like the Sixers ought to be seized and ran by the league.   It is not good for the league.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2015, 10:52:35 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think a team that tanks all the time and trades away its assets like the Sixers ought to be seized and ran by the league.   It is not good for the league.

Ahem.



Tanking is way overrated as a topic.  The Bucks last year had the worst record, not because they were tanking, but because they just stunk.  They have a similar team this year, and are playing quite well.  This year's race to the bottom has four teams:  knicks, 76ers, Lakers, and Wolves.  Of those four, really only one is tanking.  The Knicks just stink.  The Lakers aren't much better.  Both of those teams have injured stars who are the two highest paid players in the game.  The Wolves have struggled because they're young, but they've also been without their best player (this year, not the long run) in Rubio for most of the season.  But if they'd been tanking as a strategy, there's no way they'd have traded a decent 1st round pick (from Miami) for Thad Young.

The lottery in itself punishes the tankers.  If this were football, the team with the worst record would get the first pick, and not merely a 25% chance at the first pick.  If they want to remove the protection of how far you can fall in the draft, and thus make it a lottery for every spot, that could be interesting, but it might encourage tanking more (because the more lottery balls you have the less far you are likely to fall.  It actually hurts the 6-10 range more than anyone else potentially).  Sam Hinkie is abusing the system, but until he puts together a winning team, I can't say he broke the system.  5 years out, if the 6ers still stink, I can't imagine many owners saying "yes, let's do this."

Nailed it, as per usual.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2015, 03:32:45 PM »

Offline goCeltics

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they should bar repeat lotto winners and even out the odds,
stern screwed it up after the magic won two years in a row,
the previous system had it so that the each higher seed got one extra ball, so the worst team got 12 balls then the second worst them got 11 down to the team with the best non playoff record just got one ball (there were only 12 non playoff teams back then)
that system was fine but because the magic won the lotto once as the 12th worst team after they won the previous lotto , they shifted the odds for the lowers seeds winning
what they should of done was not allow team to win a lotto two years in a row, i think this is what annoyed people more about the magic's 2nd lotto win
I would have it so the team that wins the one slot, can't get a lotto seed for 3 years, the team that wins the 2nd slot can't win a lotto seed for 2 years and the team that wins the 3rd slot can't win the lotto seed for 1 year
then i would have it so if a team it barred for the lotto the remaining teams are moved up a seed, this would allow some lower seeded playoff teams to enter the lotto as lower seeds. So for example if philly has won the previous lotto, they be ineligible for the following years lotto as the worst non playoff team would enter the draft as the 14th seed, with the rest moving up a slot 
There would still be tanking but it would decrease the incentive
Also getting rid of the conferences would help

The problem always with this premise is not all years are the same and its not fair for say a bad team to have gotten the no. 1 pick in a bad yr( A. Bennett) compared to a yr when A. Davis comes out.

yes I do agree though that tankers should be punished, but just implement a system where the odds are levelled slightly say for the worst 4 teams in the league, they should all have the same odds of bagging the number 1 pick, then the next 5 teams also with the same odds. then the final 6 teams with the same odds, this way the tankers will not have much incentive but to compete..then the following year, the team that gets the number 1 pick is not eligible for the number 1 but only for the number 2.

Silver has hinted again that this summer, they will try again to submit a proposal to alter lottery proceedings, which may significantly impact the Celtics as we do have loads of asssets from the Brooklyn Nets.

you shouldn't be protected from your crap decisons, nobody thought bennet should of been the top pick except cleveland, and in that case your still eligible for your own non top 3 lottery seeded pick that year anyways so it not like your not getting any help
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 03:38:15 PM by goCeltics »

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2015, 04:21:30 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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the intentional creation of horrible teams is an embarrassment to the sport.

I've offered this suggestion to reforming the draft several times:
first year of implementation: weighted system like we have now for non-playoff teams.
second year: winner from previous lottery is prohibited from being in the selection of the top 3 slots for 3
       years.
       teams that received the second and third slots are prohibited from being the selection of the top 3
       slots for one year.  remaining eligible teams are drawn based on a weighted scale based on record.
       the teams that were in the top 3 slots the prior year are then added back to the draft process based
       on their record.
Third year: repeat second year and continue on.

incidents like Cleveland winning consecutive lotteries would end.  Philly would have had their shot at Embiid last year but not be able to do any better than fourth this year.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2015, 09:47:38 PM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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I think a team that tanks all the time and trades away its assets like the Sixers ought to be seized and ran by the league.   It is not good for the league.

So the Celtics should have been seized in 2007?

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2015, 09:55:17 PM »

Offline inverselock

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the intentional creation of horrible teams is an embarrassment to the sport.

I've offered this suggestion to reforming the draft several times:
first year of implementation: weighted system like we have now for non-playoff teams.
second year: winner from previous lottery is prohibited from being in the selection of the top 3 slots for 3
       years.
       teams that received the second and third slots are prohibited from being the selection of the top 3
       slots for one year.  remaining eligible teams are drawn based on a weighted scale based on record.
       the teams that were in the top 3 slots the prior year are then added back to the draft process based
       on their record.
Third year: repeat second year and continue on.

incidents like Cleveland winning consecutive lotteries would end.  Philly would have had their shot at Embiid last year but not be able to do any better than fourth this year.

Good idea.  I'm mega salty about Cleveland getting gifted no1's.  I wish them the worst.  I hope they don't win Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. Cleveland.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2015, 08:29:33 AM »

Offline Green-Bananas

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Adding more rules to prevent abuse isn’t the answer.

To prevent tanking, you need to change the culture. Reward the winners not the losers.

So, the NBA has 30 teams. 16 of those teams make the playoffs 14 teams don’t.  Imagine rewarding the teams which barely miss the playoffs. For one, it would be difficult for any team to control just missing out or say becoming the 17th best record. There would be a group of teams on the edge of making and missing the playoffs.

It’s much easier for a losing team to build its way from the worst record to a playoff hopeful.

Incentives encourage success. The NBA could give bonus salary cap space (for a limited number of years) to the teams that finish worst. This would help propel them to playoff contention.  And the teams that just squeak into the playoffs say the 7th & 8th slot should also be given more cap space to make it to the next level.

The Championship caliber teams should have the lowest salary cap, the following season. I know some will baulk at this idea, but it would create parity. Unrestricted free agents from good teams would have a higher incentive to sign with the worst teams because they have more salary space.

Try not to think about a team that won a championship a year or two earlier could win the lottery. It could very well happen, but the system would be difficult to rig. Teams would not be trying to just miss out. They’d be trying to win Championships.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2015, 08:51:48 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Adding more rules to prevent abuse isn’t the answer.

To prevent tanking, you need to change the culture. Reward the winners not the losers.

So, the NBA has 30 teams. 16 of those teams make the playoffs 14 teams don’t.  Imagine rewarding the teams which barely miss the playoffs. For one, it would be difficult for any team to control just missing out or say becoming the 17th best record. There would be a group of teams on the edge of making and missing the playoffs.

It’s much easier for a losing team to build its way from the worst record to a playoff hopeful.

Incentives encourage success. The NBA could give bonus salary cap space (for a limited number of years) to the teams that finish worst. This would help propel them to playoff contention.  And the teams that just squeak into the playoffs say the 7th & 8th slot should also be given more cap space to make it to the next level.

The Championship caliber teams should have the lowest salary cap, the following season. I know some will baulk at this idea, but it would create parity. Unrestricted free agents from good teams would have a higher incentive to sign with the worst teams because they have more salary space.

Try not to think about a team that won a championship a year or two earlier could win the lottery. It could very well happen, but the system would be difficult to rig. Teams would not be trying to just miss out. They’d be trying to win Championships.

This makes no sense.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2015, 10:25:41 AM »

Offline Green-Bananas

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Adding more rules to prevent abuse isn’t the answer.

To prevent tanking, you need to change the culture. Reward the winners not the losers.

So, the NBA has 30 teams. 16 of those teams make the playoffs 14 teams don’t.  Imagine rewarding the teams which barely miss the playoffs. For one, it would be difficult for any team to control just missing out or say becoming the 17th best record. There would be a group of teams on the edge of making and missing the playoffs.

It’s much easier for a losing team to build its way from the worst record to a playoff hopeful.

Incentives encourage success. The NBA could give bonus salary cap space (for a limited number of years) to the teams that finish worst. This would help propel them to playoff contention.  And the teams that just squeak into the playoffs say the 7th & 8th slot should also be given more cap space to make it to the next level.

The Championship caliber teams should have the lowest salary cap, the following season. I know some will baulk at this idea, but it would create parity. Unrestricted free agents from good teams would have a higher incentive to sign with the worst teams because they have more salary space.

Try not to think about a team that won a championship a year or two earlier could win the lottery. It could very well happen, but the system would be difficult to rig. Teams would not be trying to just miss out. They’d be trying to win Championships.

This makes no sense.

Care to elaborate or are you just adding to your post total?

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2015, 10:53:28 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Tanking punished by

Public flogging  ;D