Author Topic: punish the tankers  (Read 6813 times)

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punish the tankers
« on: February 27, 2015, 07:59:58 PM »

Offline konkmv

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There are many teams in the league that are not trying to win...  i am angered with the sixers... are they paying hinkie for losing with the hope that eventua?ly after 5-6 lottery picks they maybe manage to reach the playoffs.. ???? i think there must be a limit... no team should have more than 2 concecutive lottery picks... the third year they sould be thrown to the 15-30 spot... i think to be a general manager you must be creative produce something... hire a coach with winning mentallity... do something... these guys are selling their fans just hope... and destroying talents.. noel and embiid will never reach their potential with the sixers  mentallity...

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2015, 08:05:54 PM »

Offline KeepRondo

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Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2015, 08:06:30 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I get that some of this was the result of injuries, but the Knicks roster right now is also an absolute embarrassment. Can't imagine if you bought tickets to see them play tonight for the beginning of the season. They got Air Barg, Hardaway Jr., Early, Admunson and Jason Smith running around. I would agree with a premise that limited teams from receiving consecutive top 3 picks.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2015, 08:10:07 PM »

Offline jonaslopes

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I have a dream: 30 teams, 30 balls. No matter how good or bad you are, everybody has the same chances. Then we'll never hear about tanking anymore.
It's nice seeing him get exposed as overrated after having argued with fellow fans for years that he was overrated.. but I don't hate him. I'm looking forward to seeing him [...] bounce around to a couple more teams... eventually come back to Boston[...] and helps us as a role player until he runs himself out of the league.
LarBrd33 on Rondo

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2015, 08:11:44 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I have a dream: 30 teams, 30 balls. No matter how good or bad you are, everybody has the same chances. Then we'll never hear about tanking anymore.

That would be incredible... but some teams could go out of business pretty fast

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2015, 08:14:07 PM »

Offline jonaslopes

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I have a dream: 30 teams, 30 balls. No matter how good or bad you are, everybody has the same chances. Then we'll never hear about tanking anymore.

That would be incredible... but some teams could go out of business pretty fast

Yeah, know it's impossible. Unfortunately.

At least a lottery reform to stop Hinkie would be good.
It's nice seeing him get exposed as overrated after having argued with fellow fans for years that he was overrated.. but I don't hate him. I'm looking forward to seeing him [...] bounce around to a couple more teams... eventually come back to Boston[...] and helps us as a role player until he runs himself out of the league.
LarBrd33 on Rondo

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2015, 08:41:40 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Tanking has become such an overused term that it's basically meaningless, especially since it's replaced what used to be called "rebuilding".

What Philly is doing is fairly unprecedented in its scope, but they also haven't won a single lottery and it's very dubious whether it'll pay off.  The Knicks blew up their team midseason once it was clear Carmelo would need surgery and the team was bad even when he was playing. Other than them I don't see anyone actively trying to bottom out, just a lot of fans throwing the term around at the drop of a hat.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2015, 08:48:36 PM »

Offline Green-Bananas

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I believe the main reason the lottery reform act failed was because there are so many teams invested in future drafts. Good teams that own poor teams pick most likely voted against it. What the owners need to do is plan out a strategy for three years down the road. Then maybe it will pass.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2015, 08:56:02 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Tanking has become such an overused term that it's basically meaningless, especially since it's replaced what used to be called "rebuilding".

What Philly is doing is fairly unprecedented in its scope, but they also haven't won a single lottery and it's very dubious whether it'll pay off.  The Knicks blew up their team midseason once it was clear Carmelo would need surgery and the team was bad even when he was playing. Other than them I don't see anyone actively trying to bottom out, just a lot of fans throwing the term around at the drop of a hat.

I think it is maybe a little different right now because there is also the impending increase in salary cap and teams are more wary of taking on any future contracts until they know what the number is. I think in past seasons we have seen the Knicks, in a similar situation, make trades for guys like Marbury, Francis etc midseason and still were putting at least a somewhat entertaining product on the floor.. While the end of seasons have always featured dubious lineups and mystery ailments for star players, it seems like that stuff is happening earlier and earlier in the season.

Also with some GMs wising up (perhaps after cleveland won the lottery with the clippers unprotected pick) all picks that are traded now have certain degrees of protection. At least it seems that way to me, haven't researched whether that is true. So you have a team like the Lakers that has a crazy incentive to be bad or they completely lose their pick after an awful season. I think they probably need to get rid of pick protections as a start. Either trade first rounders or don't.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 09:31:49 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Tanking has become such an overused term that it's basically meaningless, especially since it's replaced what used to be called "rebuilding".

What Philly is doing is fairly unprecedented in its scope, but they also haven't won a single lottery and it's very dubious whether it'll pay off.  The Knicks blew up their team midseason once it was clear Carmelo would need surgery and the team was bad even when he was playing. Other than them I don't see anyone actively trying to bottom out, just a lot of fans throwing the term around at the drop of a hat.

I think it is maybe a little different right now because there is also the impending increase in salary cap and teams are more wary of taking on any future contracts until they know what the number is. I think in past seasons we have seen the Knicks, in a similar situation, make trades for guys like Marbury, Francis etc midseason and still were putting at least a somewhat entertaining product on the floor.. While the end of seasons have always featured dubious lineups and mystery ailments for star players, it seems like that stuff is happening earlier and earlier in the season.

Also with some GMs wising up (perhaps after cleveland won the lottery with the clippers unprotected pick) all picks that are traded now have certain degrees of protection. At least it seems that way to me, haven't researched whether that is true. So you have a team like the Lakers that has a crazy incentive to be bad or they completely lose their pick after an awful season. I think they probably need to get rid of pick protections as a start. Either trade first rounders or don't.

These are good points.  I think one thing that really has changed from top to bottom is that teams are increasingly treating the regular season as a formality.  Healthy rest has gone from something extraordinary to the norm.  I blame Pop for that one  ;). Since reducing the number of games isn't going to happen, I hope they go ahead and lengthen the season to add more rest days.

Pick protections are also adding some perverse incentives to the system.  I don't know if I'd eliminate them, but at least some standard rules would help.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2015, 11:45:29 PM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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There are many teams in the league that are not trying to win...  i am angered with the sixers... are they paying hinkie for losing with the hope that eventua?ly after 5-6 lottery picks they maybe manage to reach the playoffs.. ???? i think there must be a limit... no team should have more than 2 concecutive lottery picks... the third year they sould be thrown to the 15-30 spot... i think to be a general manager you must be creative produce something... hire a coach with winning mentallity... do something... these guys are selling their fans just hope... and destroying talents.. noel and embiid will never reach their potential with the sixers  mentallity...

Tanking isn't the problem, the league's broken competitive balance system is.

Tanking is a system of that, if it was realistic for team to win without superstars on a consistent basis they wouldn't tank.

A hard cap and no max is a much better solution than lottery reform, which just shifts the edge of the tanking incentive.

The most egregious tanking examples happen when teams try to keep picks at the edge of their protections.

And to be honest I think anybody suggesting tanking creates some sort of irreversible losing culture should take a look at the GSW, and more specifically how they drafted Harrison Barnes.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2015, 03:47:20 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Tanking has become such an overused term that it's basically meaningless, especially since it's replaced what used to be called "rebuilding".

What Philly is doing is fairly unprecedented in its scope, but they also haven't won a single lottery and it's very dubious whether it'll pay off.  The Knicks blew up their team midseason once it was clear Carmelo would need surgery and the team was bad even when he was playing. Other than them I don't see anyone actively trying to bottom out, just a lot of fans throwing the term around at the drop of a hat.

I think it is maybe a little different right now because there is also the impending increase in salary cap and teams are more wary of taking on any future contracts until they know what the number is. I think in past seasons we have seen the Knicks, in a similar situation, make trades for guys like Marbury, Francis etc midseason and still were putting at least a somewhat entertaining product on the floor.. While the end of seasons have always featured dubious lineups and mystery ailments for star players, it seems like that stuff is happening earlier and earlier in the season.

Also with some GMs wising up (perhaps after cleveland won the lottery with the clippers unprotected pick) all picks that are traded now have certain degrees of protection. At least it seems that way to me, haven't researched whether that is true. So you have a team like the Lakers that has a crazy incentive to be bad or they completely lose their pick after an awful season. I think they probably need to get rid of pick protections as a start. Either trade first rounders or don't.

These are good points.  I think one thing that really has changed from top to bottom is that teams are increasingly treating the regular season as a formality.  Healthy rest has gone from something extraordinary to the norm.  I blame Pop for that one  ;). Since reducing the number of games isn't going to happen, I hope they go ahead and lengthen the season to add more rest days.

Pick protections are also adding some perverse incentives to the system.  I don't know if I'd eliminate them, but at least some standard rules would help.

The basketball regular season is irrelevant in this new competitive landscape. Fans want contests that are events, when the outcome is actually meaningful. In football, almost every game means something because there are only 16 games and the playoff system is lose and you're out. Even with a fraction of games played compared to the other leagues, their business is thriving. In European soccer leagues, the "regular season" is actually their championship, so the games always matter regardless of whether the opponent is the bottom of the rung or a top team. This ensures that every contest is significant.

Contrast that with the NBA where compared to the other leagues the most teams (16) make the playoffs. In fact, more teams make the playoffs than not (14)! At least in baseball you cannot slumber through the regular season because only 3 teams make the playoffs outright and 2 have that stupid wild card playoff (edit: I forgot to say in each "league," AL and NL). Going through an extended slump during the baseball season makes it very difficult to get into the playoffs.

I've said it countless times but the main problem is that there are too many teams. Basketball is the sport with the least emphasis on team play over individual talent. The elite players are only so few and every team is trying to get them. For many teams the best way to do so is by entering the lottery and hoping for some fortune. Otherwise, for many small-market teams the odds of getting a franchise talent who is also willing to re-sign long term to your team is very small.

What percentage of teams that make the playoffs actually have a shot at winning the title? This year it may be as high as 50% but in typical years the percentage is much lower. How come other leagues do just fine with less playoff teams but a higher percentage chance that each one has a shot at winning? Obviously not every team that makes the playoffs in any sport has a realistic chance at a title, but at least it usually means you are on the right track. The NBA playoffs now include teams that could be considered worse off than ones in the lottery, which is why you've got teams who don't even want to make the playoffs.

Not to mention the new CBA rules have made it 1) harder for struggling teams to get a good return on their departing stars and 2) made stars impossible to extend while under contract since going to free agency is more financially lucrative. So the odds are stacked against the small market teams once again.

There are some positive trends though. Rule changes have made teams like the Spurs, Hawks, and may even the future Celtics competitive without a clear cut MVP-level star in their lineup. However, we don't know for sure how fluky the Spurs title last year may prove to be. It could be that in the playoffs the quantity-not-quality depth that helps in the regular season does not translate as much. The playoffs are a different beast than the regular season. The other positive is the proposed playoff seeding reform that will ensure the 16 best teams record-wise actually make the playoffs.

Other than that, I honestly don't know what feasible changes they could make since they will never reduce the number of games in the regular season and playoffs due to the revenue and TV contracts that restrict change. The wheel system is the only truly fair system but it would not even be able to be enacted until after all the future draft picks that have been traded or awarded. They could reduce the number of playoff teams and create some kind of alternative tournament for the lottery teams to make up that revenue, perhaps. Needless to say there are a lot of forces conspiring to prevent change but at least since Silver has taken over there is some discussion happening. The increase is intelligent basketball reporting, coinciding with the analytics movement is also shifting public awareness about these issues.

With the decline in baseball from public relevancy basketball is in a prime position to secure itself as the no. 2 sport. However, it needs to make some bold changes in the system to avoid complacency. The owners need to come together and be willing to vote against their own short term self-interest to strengthen the league. If they don't do that it doesn't really matter what Silver says as it's just going to die in the legislature.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2015, 06:18:02 AM »

Offline goCeltics

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they should bar repeat lotto winners and even out the odds,
stern screwed it up after the magic won two years in a row,
the previous system had it so that the each higher seed got one extra ball, so the worst team got 12 balls then the second worst them got 11 down to the team with the best non playoff record just got one ball (there were only 12 non playoff teams back then)
that system was fine but because the magic won the lotto once as the 12th worst team after they won the previous lotto , they shifted the odds for the lowers seeds winning
what they should of done was not allow team to win a lotto two years in a row, i think this is what annoyed people more about the magic's 2nd lotto win
I would have it so the team that wins the one slot, can't get a lotto seed for 3 years, the team that wins the 2nd slot can't win a lotto seed for 2 years and the team that wins the 3rd slot can't win the lotto seed for 1 year
then i would have it so if a team it barred for the lotto the remaining teams are moved up a seed, this would allow some lower seeded playoff teams to enter the lotto as lower seeds. So for example if philly has won the previous lotto, they be ineligible for the following years lotto as the worst non playoff team would enter the draft as the 14th seed, with the rest moving up a slot 
There would still be tanking but it would decrease the incentive
Also getting rid of the conferences would help

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2015, 06:54:20 AM »

Offline bopna

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they should bar repeat lotto winners and even out the odds,
stern screwed it up after the magic won two years in a row,
the previous system had it so that the each higher seed got one extra ball, so the worst team got 12 balls then the second worst them got 11 down to the team with the best non playoff record just got one ball (there were only 12 non playoff teams back then)
that system was fine but because the magic won the lotto once as the 12th worst team after they won the previous lotto , they shifted the odds for the lowers seeds winning
what they should of done was not allow team to win a lotto two years in a row, i think this is what annoyed people more about the magic's 2nd lotto win
I would have it so the team that wins the one slot, can't get a lotto seed for 3 years, the team that wins the 2nd slot can't win a lotto seed for 2 years and the team that wins the 3rd slot can't win the lotto seed for 1 year
then i would have it so if a team it barred for the lotto the remaining teams are moved up a seed, this would allow some lower seeded playoff teams to enter the lotto as lower seeds. So for example if philly has won the previous lotto, they be ineligible for the following years lotto as the worst non playoff team would enter the draft as the 14th seed, with the rest moving up a slot 
There would still be tanking but it would decrease the incentive
Also getting rid of the conferences would help

The problem always with this premise is not all years are the same and its not fair for say a bad team to have gotten the no. 1 pick in a bad yr( A. Bennett) compared to a yr when A. Davis comes out.

yes I do agree though that tankers should be punished, but just implement a system where the odds are levelled slightly say for the worst 4 teams in the league, they should all have the same odds of bagging the number 1 pick, then the next 5 teams also with the same odds. then the final 6 teams with the same odds, this way the tankers will not have much incentive but to compete..then the following year, the team that gets the number 1 pick is not eligible for the number 1 but only for the number 2.

Silver has hinted again that this summer, they will try again to submit a proposal to alter lottery proceedings, which may significantly impact the Celtics as we do have loads of asssets from the Brooklyn Nets.

Re: punish the tankers
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2015, 07:10:10 AM »

Offline jonaslopes

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yes I do agree though that tankers should be punished, but just implement a system where the odds are levelled slightly say for the worst 4 teams in the league, they should all have the same odds of bagging the number 1 pick, then the next 5 teams also with the same odds. then the final 6 teams with the same odds, this way the tankers will not have much incentive but to compete..then the following year, the team that gets the number 1 pick is not eligible for the number 1 but only for the number 2.

That would be very good.
It's nice seeing him get exposed as overrated after having argued with fellow fans for years that he was overrated.. but I don't hate him. I'm looking forward to seeing him [...] bounce around to a couple more teams... eventually come back to Boston[...] and helps us as a role player until he runs himself out of the league.
LarBrd33 on Rondo