Author Topic: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas  (Read 29505 times)

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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2015, 01:56:48 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Thomas still puts up the most shots on the team, and finishes games. I think he is fine coming off the bench and it is best for the team.

I wonder if he will be in contention for the 6th man of the year award.
I just don't think it is best for the team.  Bradley and Smart are basically the same player.  The team would be better served starting Smart and Thomas and then use Bradley as the bulldog defender off the bench.  I think that would also greatly improve Bradley's offensive game when he isn't starting.  Bradley is the guy that should be on the 6th man, not Thomas.
IMO the first unit is more about defense and the second unit is more about offense. Without Thomas the second unit's 5 out offense wouldn't work because there wouldn't be anyone that has the ability to get to the hoop.

If you put Bradley in the second unit, the first unit won't defend at the level they need to be successful and the second unit wouldn't score enough to make it valuable.
according to 82games.com

the Smart/Bradley/Turner/Bass/Zeller lineup is a terrible lineup with a team worst win percentage of just 16.6%. 

Matches what I see when I watch the team.  I just don't like them starting together.  Just too similar.


Simple, logical, and brilliant post. It's exactly what I see when watching these five play together. TP.

Simple reason why: not enough 3-PT shooting on that unit. A more mobile/slim Sullinger would fit with Zeller better than Bass. Bass should come off the bench and play alongside Olynyk/Jerebko.

This is how I see the future rotation (3-PT shooters in bold):

Smart / Thomas
Bradley
Turner / Crowder
Sullinger / Bass / Jerebko
Zeller / Olynyk

Something like this keeps at least THREE 3-PT shooters on the floor at all times, which is a necessity especially when Thomas is on the floor.

The starting line-up works inside-out and the second-line uses drive and kick. There's a lot of flexibility with our frontline depending on your opponent. For example, Crowder and Olynyk can be your PF and C for ultimate spacing with Thomas if your opponent can't answer your small ball.
Must have Sullinger and his 28% career three-point shooting. And Turner (career 32%) is apparently not a three point shooter (but Crowder, career 33% is?!).

SMH
Smart is only 33.7% as well.  Bradley should come off the bench.  His skill set is perfectly suited as a 6th man.  Great defender, good outside shooter, and not much else.  Thomas is the perfect PG in Stevens' system.  He moves the ball well, is super fast and looking to run, etc.  Just a much better all around player and with Smart as his running mate his defensive deficiencies are minimized. 
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2015, 02:03:54 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Smart is only 33.7% as well.  Bradley should come off the bench.  His skill set is perfectly suited as a 6th man.  Great defender, good outside shooter, and not much else.  Thomas is the perfect PG in Stevens' system.  He moves the ball well, is super fast and looking to run, etc.  Just a much better all around player and with Smart as his running mate his defensive deficiencies are minimized.
Bradley will be horrible off the bench: not an efficient scorer, volume shooter who's at his best when taking the least efficient shot in the game. The most [dang]ing part must be the fact that he's completely and utterly atrocious when he tries anything other than said shot (like driving or passing). He will be best stashed in a lineup where he doesn't have to touch the ball too much, and gets a lot of help in PnR defense (I have just recently realized how badly he sticks to picks these days). For our current roster, I actually like the IT/Bradley pairing.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2015, 02:10:21 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Thomas still puts up the most shots on the team, and finishes games. I think he is fine coming off the bench and it is best for the team.

I wonder if he will be in contention for the 6th man of the year award.
I just don't think it is best for the team.  Bradley and Smart are basically the same player.  The team would be better served starting Smart and Thomas and then use Bradley as the bulldog defender off the bench.  I think that would also greatly improve Bradley's offensive game when he isn't starting.  Bradley is the guy that should be on the 6th man, not Thomas.
IMO the first unit is more about defense and the second unit is more about offense. Without Thomas the second unit's 5 out offense wouldn't work because there wouldn't be anyone that has the ability to get to the hoop.

If you put Bradley in the second unit, the first unit won't defend at the level they need to be successful and the second unit wouldn't score enough to make it valuable.
according to 82games.com

the Smart/Bradley/Turner/Bass/Zeller lineup is a terrible lineup with a team worst win percentage of just 16.6%. 

Matches what I see when I watch the team.  I just don't like them starting together.  Just too similar.


Simple, logical, and brilliant post. It's exactly what I see when watching these five play together. TP.

Simple reason why: not enough 3-PT shooting on that unit. A more mobile/slim Sullinger would fit with Zeller better than Bass. Bass should come off the bench and play alongside Olynyk/Jerebko.

This is how I see the future rotation (3-PT shooters in bold):

Smart / Thomas
Bradley
Turner / Crowder
Sullinger / Bass / Jerebko
Zeller / Olynyk

Something like this keeps at least THREE 3-PT shooters on the floor at all times, which is a necessity especially when Thomas is on the floor.

The starting line-up works inside-out and the second-line uses drive and kick. There's a lot of flexibility with our frontline depending on your opponent. For example, Crowder and Olynyk can be your PF and C for ultimate spacing with Thomas if your opponent can't answer your small ball.

What is your proposed depth chart for a C's team that breaks .500, though?
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2015, 02:16:34 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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If we are talking improving overall team shouldn't bench guys be the more flex-able players. What about IT, AB, Crowder, Bass, Zeller start cause they are less diverse and only play one position (but their level of play is the same). While Smart, Turner, Jerebko and KO come off the bench because you can slot them in two or more positions. Thoughts?

Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2015, 02:20:37 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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If we are talking improving overall team shouldn't bench guys be the more flex-able players. What about IT, AB, Crowder, Bass, Zeller start cause they are less diverse and only play one position (but their level of play is the same). While Smart, Turner, Jerebko and KO come off the bench because you can slot them in two or more positions. Thoughts?
Crowder has played both forward spots off the bench. Which has actually helped him, because he's not a very good SF, and can't really match up with most starting PFs. Thomas can possibly be fine off the bench, because you want to sub him in very early and keep him in very long (well, not according to Brad S, I guess), and you can pair him with either of the two guards.

Improving the team at this point still revolves around adding one or more competent bigs.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2015, 02:32:48 PM »

Offline Diggles

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If you ad IT to the starting line up, then you remove Turner and either (Bradley or Smart) 

Bradley and Smart are less of natural distributors than Turner and IT.    So its not a simple start IT.     There is a nice flow and we are winning.  Lets give it time.  I like what we have moving forward.     

SG, SF and Center.   

I'd almost see what a sully and OK could fetch us at the C spot.    Sacramento and DC comes to mind.   
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2015, 02:52:26 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.

Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2015, 03:47:16 PM »

Offline JumpingJudkins

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What they need is Olynyk back in the starting lineup in place of Bass. Gives the team a legitimate perimeter threat and opens the lane for Zeller when Turner goes to the basket. And in that group -- after watching a few games of Jonas Jerebko and a whole lot of Crowder -- hopefully KO will overcome his fear of shooting.

Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2015, 03:59:34 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2015, 04:42:25 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.


Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2015, 04:56:27 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2015, 05:29:44 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.

I understand why you would want to keep him in his current role. He's doing a fine job at it, it would save Bradley (and more importantly) Smart from taking a blow to the ego, and the second unit needs scoring.

That said, if Thomas is unhappy say, by the year's end, I give him the nod. He will likely have earned it, and we don't have the luxury of playing with a Manu/Terry/Crawford 6th man. 

Anyway, for now, as long as he's finishing games and getting the lion's share of the mins, I'm cool with it.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2015, 08:05:01 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.
Thomas is great, but he's dominating the ball like 86' MJ.  His usage rate is astronomical, 33.8%.  Higher than Curry (28.3) and even higher than James Harden (31%). 

I doubt his efficiency is sustainable at that rate, especially if he were a starter. I don't think it's healthy for any starter to dominate the ball like that.  I think if you want to win with a hodgepodge group like the Celtics have, you better be sharing the ball and executing in the half court, like Atlanta.  Nobody over 25% and hyper-efficient guys like Korver at 14%.

Now, if IT can come off the bench and score in bursts like Jamal Crawford (another high usg% guy) then I'm fine with it.  Do they both deserve to start?  Yeah, probably.

Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2015, 08:23:34 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.
Thomas is great, but he's dominating the ball like 86' MJ.  His usage rate is astronomical, 33.8%.  Higher than Curry (28.3) and even higher than James Harden (31%). 

I doubt his efficiency is sustainable at that rate, especially if he were a starter. I don't think it's healthy for any starter to dominate the ball like that.  I think if you want to win with a hodgepodge group like the Celtics have, you better be sharing the ball and executing in the half court, like Atlanta.  Nobody over 25% and hyper-efficient guys like Korver at 14%.

Now, if IT can come off the bench and score in bursts like Jamal Crawford (another high usg% guy) then I'm fine with it.  Do they both deserve to start?  Yeah, probably.
You don't ever bring your best player off the bench.  It is just silly.  His usage is so high because Boston is a terrible team with no good scorers and he is coming off the bench (and he is still getting 6 assists a game).  Put Thomas in the starting lineup with slightly better players around him and his USG goes back down to the mid 20's where it has been for the last three years or so.  Which for your teams best player makes sense.  It just silly to bring your best player off the bench. 

Jamal Crawford is at best his teams third best player though. He is also pretty much a scorer.  He doesn't rebound, he doesn't pass, etc.  Comparing a guy like that with Thomas is just silly.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2015, 08:43:30 AM »

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Would there be any other nba team who's best player comes off the bench?
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