Author Topic: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas  (Read 29506 times)

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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2015, 08:47:20 AM »

Offline chambers

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.
Thomas is great, but he's dominating the ball like 86' MJ.  His usage rate is astronomical, 33.8%.  Higher than Curry (28.3) and even higher than James Harden (31%). 

I doubt his efficiency is sustainable at that rate, especially if he were a starter. I don't think it's healthy for any starter to dominate the ball like that.  I think if you want to win with a hodgepodge group like the Celtics have, you better be sharing the ball and executing in the half court, like Atlanta.  Nobody over 25% and hyper-efficient guys like Korver at 14%.

Now, if IT can come off the bench and score in bursts like Jamal Crawford (another high usg% guy) then I'm fine with it.  Do they both deserve to start?  Yeah, probably.

His size issues are also less likely to be an issue on both ends vs second units.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2015, 08:53:51 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.
Thomas is great, but he's dominating the ball like 86' MJ.  His usage rate is astronomical, 33.8%.  Higher than Curry (28.3) and even higher than James Harden (31%). 

I doubt his efficiency is sustainable at that rate, especially if he were a starter. I don't think it's healthy for any starter to dominate the ball like that.  I think if you want to win with a hodgepodge group like the Celtics have, you better be sharing the ball and executing in the half court, like Atlanta.  Nobody over 25% and hyper-efficient guys like Korver at 14%.

Now, if IT can come off the bench and score in bursts like Jamal Crawford (another high usg% guy) then I'm fine with it.  Do they both deserve to start?  Yeah, probably.

His size issues are also less likely to be an issue on both ends vs second units.
you are 100% spot TP.
His size issues weren't an issue at all in Sacramento.  It is a silly argument. 
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2015, 09:15:43 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.
Thomas is great, but he's dominating the ball like 86' MJ.  His usage rate is astronomical, 33.8%.  Higher than Curry (28.3) and even higher than James Harden (31%). 

I doubt his efficiency is sustainable at that rate, especially if he were a starter. I don't think it's healthy for any starter to dominate the ball like that.  I think if you want to win with a hodgepodge group like the Celtics have, you better be sharing the ball and executing in the half court, like Atlanta.  Nobody over 25% and hyper-efficient guys like Korver at 14%.

Now, if IT can come off the bench and score in bursts like Jamal Crawford (another high usg% guy) then I'm fine with it.  Do they both deserve to start?  Yeah, probably.

His size issues are also less likely to be an issue on both ends vs second units.
you are 100% spot TP.
His size issues weren't an issue at all in Sacramento.  It is a silly argument.
I know that he wasn't the only reason the Kings were awful on defense when he was on the team, but his size issues certainly didn't help.

Had his size issues not been present do you think a guy averaging 20/6 would get a contract that is closer to Brandon Bass than other 20 point scorers.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2015, 10:17:52 AM »

Offline PickNRoll

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.
Thomas is great, but he's dominating the ball like 86' MJ.  His usage rate is astronomical, 33.8%.  Higher than Curry (28.3) and even higher than James Harden (31%). 

I doubt his efficiency is sustainable at that rate, especially if he were a starter. I don't think it's healthy for any starter to dominate the ball like that.  I think if you want to win with a hodgepodge group like the Celtics have, you better be sharing the ball and executing in the half court, like Atlanta.  Nobody over 25% and hyper-efficient guys like Korver at 14%.

Now, if IT can come off the bench and score in bursts like Jamal Crawford (another high usg% guy) then I'm fine with it.  Do they both deserve to start?  Yeah, probably.

His size issues are also less likely to be an issue on both ends vs second units.
you are 100% spot TP.
His size issues weren't an issue at all in Sacramento.  It is a silly argument.
They did lose 54 games 2 years in a row.  I don't think that's the model Brad Stevens is trying to follow.  I agree though, that size isn't really the problem, but I also think coaches would gameplan for a 5'9" starter.  You have to hide him somewhere, as we saw with him guarding Iguodala and Livingston.  Thankfully Smart and Turner give you flexibility to drop IT in any spot 1-3.

Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2015, 10:19:57 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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It matters when a guy Avery Bradley or Rondo's size can elevate and shoot over the top of your contest even if you recover "on time". Same issue Ty Lawson has to deal with or for the more green tinted among us Phil Pressey has to deal with.

Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2015, 10:20:43 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Had his size issues not been present do you think a guy averaging 20/6 would get a contract that is closer to Brandon Bass than other 20 point scorers.
I think his size and chemistry issues (whatever they were because the Kings clearly wanted him gone) led to his smaller contract.

Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2015, 10:36:01 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Thomas is great, but he's dominating the ball like 86' MJ.  His usage rate is astronomical, 33.8%.  Higher than Curry (28.3) and even higher than James Harden (31%).
In fact, it's 36%, and yes, the rest of our roster is THAT bad.

Eithe way, he scored 20 ppg as a starter in Sacramento on a usage rate of 26%. He'd be just fine if he starts. Personally, I don't really care if he does, but there is no excuse not to play him in the 33-35 minute range right now.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2015, 10:36:34 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Had his size issues not been present do you think a guy averaging 20/6 would get a contract that is closer to Brandon Bass than other 20 point scorers.
I think his size and chemistry issues (whatever they were because the Kings clearly wanted him gone) led to his smaller contract.
He's gone, and the Kings are about to lose 50 games again, so I don't think he was the problem there...
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2015, 11:37:18 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.
Thomas is great, but he's dominating the ball like 86' MJ.  His usage rate is astronomical, 33.8%.  Higher than Curry (28.3) and even higher than James Harden (31%). 

I doubt his efficiency is sustainable at that rate, especially if he were a starter. I don't think it's healthy for any starter to dominate the ball like that.  I think if you want to win with a hodgepodge group like the Celtics have, you better be sharing the ball and executing in the half court, like Atlanta.  Nobody over 25% and hyper-efficient guys like Korver at 14%.

Now, if IT can come off the bench and score in bursts like Jamal Crawford (another high usg% guy) then I'm fine with it.  Do they both deserve to start?  Yeah, probably.

His size issues are also less likely to be an issue on both ends vs second units.
you are 100% spot TP.
His size issues weren't an issue at all in Sacramento.  It is a silly argument.
I know that he wasn't the only reason the Kings were awful on defense when he was on the team, but his size issues certainly didn't help.

Had his size issues not been present do you think a guy averaging 20/6 would get a contract that is closer to Brandon Bass than other 20 point scorers.
He plays the deepest position in basketball and he isn't the only guy with that sort of contract.  For example, Monta Ellis didn't sign for much more than that he has a much longer history with that sort of play than Thomas does. 
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2015, 12:00:55 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I like Smart, Bradley, and Turner starting.  The identity of this team should be defense.  The first unit sets the tone with defense and ball movement.  Then Stevens has the flexibility to sub in IT for any spot 1-3 depending on matchups and who has the hot hand. 

Notice how the team's offensive identity completely changes when IT comes in, for better or worse?  The ball doesn't move as much.  The team looks for IT on almost every possession.  He's becoming a crutch.  Of course, he's a very good offensive player and we might improve if we just ran IT pnr's on every play, but that's not the identity we're trying to establish.  We have to build something more sustainable.  Isaiah is better as a spark plug than a floor general.  If we're ever going to be serious, Smart or some player not yet on the roster needs to grow as a floor general.

Granted, our team is 2 legitimate frontcourt players away from realizing any defensive identity.
And what does being a "floor general" really mean? Did the Golden State Warriors have one the other day? Or was the team just looking for Curry and Thompson on every possession?
Curry is definitely a floor general.  He's the de facto ball handler.  He can break pressure.  He advances it quickly and finds transition baskets.  He gets the team into their sets early.  He penetrates and creates for others (8apg).  He scores 24 a game without being selfish.  He's not a ball stopper.  He's a gunner but he rarely shoots his team out of their rhythm.  He shows good awareness, knows when to defer.  And so on. 

Of course, you can freelance a lot when you have 2 of the greatest shooters of the last 20 years.
So no love for Thomas's 22 ppg (on about the same number of shots as Curry) and 7.5 assists per 36 minutes?

Of course the identity changes. When Isaiah Thomas steps on the court, he's automatically the best scoring option by a HUGE margin.
Thomas is great, but he's dominating the ball like 86' MJ.  His usage rate is astronomical, 33.8%.  Higher than Curry (28.3) and even higher than James Harden (31%). 

I doubt his efficiency is sustainable at that rate, especially if he were a starter. I don't think it's healthy for any starter to dominate the ball like that.  I think if you want to win with a hodgepodge group like the Celtics have, you better be sharing the ball and executing in the half court, like Atlanta.  Nobody over 25% and hyper-efficient guys like Korver at 14%.

Now, if IT can come off the bench and score in bursts like Jamal Crawford (another high usg% guy) then I'm fine with it.  Do they both deserve to start?  Yeah, probably.

His size issues are also less likely to be an issue on both ends vs second units.
you are 100% spot TP.
His size issues weren't an issue at all in Sacramento.  It is a silly argument.
I know that he wasn't the only reason the Kings were awful on defense when he was on the team, but his size issues certainly didn't help.

Had his size issues not been present do you think a guy averaging 20/6 would get a contract that is closer to Brandon Bass than other 20 point scorers.
He plays the deepest position in basketball and he isn't the only guy with that sort of contract.  For example, Monta Ellis didn't sign for much more than that he has a much longer history with that sort of play than Thomas does.
So his small size doesn't effect him at all?

I think it's "silly" (as you so aptly put it) to think that size doesn't negatively effect his defense. The Suns were 3.5 points per 100 possessions worse with him on defense this year.

There has to be a reason that players with worse numbers than him have been signed to much larger contracts and it because his height limits his ceiling as a defender.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2015, 12:10:06 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Do not care if he starts or not. Just have him on the court when this team most needs points because the man can put the ball in the basket.

As for his defense, to think his size doesn't affect his ability to guard other players is illogical and hasn't shown to be true in most of ITs defensive metrics which are not good. He is quick laterally and fast but he is just to small to cause problems for most good PGs.

Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2015, 12:31:25 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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Do not care if he starts or not. Just have him on the court when this team most needs points because the man can put the ball in the basket.

As for his defense, to think his size doesn't affect his ability to guard other players is illogical and hasn't shown to be true in most of ITs defensive metrics which are not good. He is quick laterally and fast but he is just to small to cause problems for most good PGs.
My thoughts exactly.  Inject IT for instant offense, but build the team around defense.  It's a nice luxury.  If Turner or Bradley is hot, ride em a little longer.  If we're in a scoring drought (as we often are), give em the quick hook for IT.  Stevens likes versatile players and with Smart, Turner, Crowder and Bass, he has a ton of flexibility to dictate matchups.

Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2015, 12:35:36 PM »

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IT is the latest player in the Nate Robinson/Stephon Marbury/Jordan Crawford/Jerryd Bayless mold. Ainge loves players like this, but I don't think he's really looking for that sort of player to be the starting point guard.

One assumes that Stevens is on board with this evaluation and decision making.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2015, 01:05:53 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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IT is the latest player in the Nate Robinson/Stephon Marbury/Jordan Crawford/Jerryd Bayless mold. Ainge loves players like this, but I don't think he's really looking for that sort of player to be the starting point guard.

One assumes that Stevens is on board with this evaluation and decision making.
Except Thomas is better than all off these guys ever were, so we'll see how this pans out.
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Re: Brad Stevens has no intentions of starting Isaiah Thomas
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2015, 01:12:34 PM »

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IT is the latest player in the Nate Robinson/Stephon Marbury/Jordan Crawford/Jerryd Bayless mold. Ainge loves players like this, but I don't think he's really looking for that sort of player to be the starting point guard.

One assumes that Stevens is on board with this evaluation and decision making.
Except Thomas is better than all off these guys ever were, so we'll see how this pans out.

Thomas is better than Marbury as a Celt for sure, but I definitely wouldn't say he's better than Marbury ever was.  22+ point/8+ assist guys don't grow on trees.  But I get your point.

I've seen Thomas as kind of a rich man's Nate-Rob since he got here, which is a pretty good thing to be, but not a guy you ultimately want as your #1 option.  Explosive bench playmaker who finishes most games is a very nice piece though, especially on his contract.