Author Topic: making the playoffs could be the better plan  (Read 16042 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2015, 02:12:01 AM »

Offline PickNRoll

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1691
  • Tommy Points: 199
Yes, the Bobcats and Chris Wallace Celtics had terrible runs. 

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2015, 02:50:49 AM »

Offline krumeto

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 476
  • Tommy Points: 72
If there are good deals, we make them. When we play games, we try to win.

This is not complicated.

+1
"We do so many defensive drills in practice, I come home and I'm putting the press on my woman, denying her the ball.
Y'all are laughing, but it's sad. I go home and deny the wing."

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2015, 07:27:22 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27260
  • Tommy Points: 867
I do sort of agree that if we aren't tanking, we might as well be trying to make the playoffs. Picking top 3 (or perhaps, in this draft, 2) is extremely valuable, but the difference between #10 and #16 doesn't necessarily outweigh the value of playoff experience, even leaving aside the potential to attract a FA.

+1

A team consisting of zeller, sully, crowder, ab, turner, smart, ko, wallace, pressey, young is not bad enough to finish in the last 7. And knowing CBS he would somehow bring out the best from fillers we would get for bass, prince, thornton.

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2015, 07:42:39 AM »

Offline CFAN38

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4878
  • Tommy Points: 420
Next season yes but not this season,


If the Cs make the playoffs this season they will be overachieving and doing so under the leadership of vets who will not be back next season. Prince, Bass and Thorton are unlikely to be on this team next year. A playoff run this year while a learning experience for the teams youth and enjoyable for the fans is not a good scenario. Moderate success with a flawed short term lineup is not good for the rebuild. I agree with you that stars can be founded latter in the draft but as others have stated this is fare less likely.

Now next season is a different story. Next season I really hope the Cs can make a push for the playoffs. With basically the entire roster not yet in their prime years it would be great to get them this experience to build on. It also helps the the Nets will likely be a lottery team and the Cs will get a good pick from them in 2016 draft. Depending on how the offseason plays out next seasons team could have Turner 27 and Zeller 25 as the two oldest players in the rotation.
Mavs
Wiz
Hornet

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2015, 08:15:56 AM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33432
  • Tommy Points: 1532
Star Players who were drafted ouside top 10:

Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Joe Johnson
Klay Thompson
Al Jefferson
Clyde Drexler
Karl Malone
Shawn Kemp
John Stockton
Jermaine O'neal
Reggie Miller


Most of them are alpha-male stars. The point is chance of getting a star player in that range is close to top 10.

Consider, though, all the players drafted outside the top 10 that didn't become stars.

Consider also all the teams that spend years in the lottery and get multiple top ten picks and still never are any good.

Mike
Timberwolves, Kings, 76ers... umm...

Is that it?

Pitino Celtics
Pre-Ujiri Raptors
Cavs outside LeBron
Pistons
Bobcats
Nets
Knicks
Bucks
Um, Pitino was here for 4 drafts, which netted Boston among other Paul Pierce.  Not sure I'd use him as an example of a team in perpetual mediocrity.

Toronto was in the lottery 5 years, though won 40 games once and was in the mid-30's 3 of the other times.  They also had their star player just up and leave on them.  And during those five seasons drafted DeRozan and Valanciunas among others.

Cavs had 4 seasons without Lebron, whose leaving sort of left them in a lurch with a bunch of veteran contracts that didn't make sense on a rebuilding team.

Pistons are in a bit of down stretch, but seem to be going in the right direction being led by Drummond and Monroe (you know two guys they drafted in the top ten recently).

The Nets have never gone more than 5 seasons without being in the playoffs.

The Knicks are always trading their first rounders to try and be relevant.  They are actually the poster child for why you shouldn't trade a bunch of first round picks for veteran players.

The Bucks seems like an odd pick since the early 90's have never been outside of the playoffs for more than 3 seasons at any given time (and the early 90's was following a stretch where they made the playoffs ever single season for over a decade).  The Bucks are actually an example of why you shouldn't try the mediocre game because unless you get lucky in the lottery you are going to be stuck in mediocrity forever, which is no top ten picks and no real chance of contending, which is what they have been for the last 15 years or so.  This year they finally got a top 3 pick and he unfortunately got injured.  Of course they are also .500 right now.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2015, 08:49:17 AM »

Offline TwinTower14

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1119
  • Tommy Points: 48
I had my heart set on Johnson, Russell or Mario but that is looking like a long shot. With the C's having the easiest schedule in te NBA for the rest of the season I think the playoffs are a real option. Watching these young guys compete in the playoffs isn't the worst thing in the world...Go C's!!!'

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2015, 08:55:29 AM »

Offline CFAN38

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4878
  • Tommy Points: 420
I had my heart set on Johnson, Russell or Mario but that is looking like a long shot. With the C's having the easiest schedule in te NBA for the rest of the season I think the playoffs are a real option. Watching these young guys compete in the playoffs isn't the worst thing in the world...Go C's!!!'

Watching the young guys isn't bad but watching Prince, Bass and Thorton is.
Mavs
Wiz
Hornet

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2015, 09:23:13 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11192
  • Tommy Points: 858
I remember hearing Danny Ainge answer this question last season when there was a point where every team was playing so bad, it looked like we might make the playoffs.  What Danny said is that if we make the playoffs because our players have developed and we are really actually a playoff team, that is good.  But if we make the playoffs only because all the other teams are so bad, that is not going to help.

I think the point is that if the individual players on the team play well individually and collectively that means all of our assets have more value, whether we keep them or trade them.  That is an appreciation of the value of assets and the overall franchise.  Losing appreciates the value of one draft asset.

So yes, making the playoffs could work out to be better for the team overall or even not making the playoffs but playing better.  This will result in one draft pick yielding a somewhat lower grade player (maybe) but would also mean that Sullinger, Smart, etc are playing well and developing and the Bass's, Princes, and Thorntons on the team are playing better and may actually get us something back in a trade.

So the choice is lose and make one asset better or win a few more games because several assets are better.  I don't think we are going to make the playoffs but I am not afraid to see us play well and win a few games.  I want to see our young players play well, especially Smart and Sullinger in the near term and I want to see our tradable vets play well.  If that means we get pick 9 instead of pick 6, so be it.

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2015, 09:26:14 AM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11688
  • Tommy Points: 1469
Star Players who were drafted ouside top 10:

Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Joe Johnson
Klay Thompson
Al Jefferson
Clyde Drexler
Karl Malone
Shawn Kemp
John Stockton
Jermaine O'neal
Reggie Miller


Most of them are alpha-male stars. The point is chance of getting a star player in that range is close to top 10.

Consider, though, all the players drafted outside the top 10 that didn't become stars.

Consider also all the teams that spend years in the lottery and get multiple top ten picks and still never are any good.

Mike
Timberwolves, Kings, 76ers... umm...

Is that it?

Pitino Celtics
Pre-Ujiri Raptors
Cavs outside LeBron
Pistons
Bobcats
Nets
Knicks
Bucks
Um, Pitino was here for 4 drafts, which netted Boston among other Paul Pierce.  Not sure I'd use him as an example of a team in perpetual mediocrity.

Toronto was in the lottery 5 years, though won 40 games once and was in the mid-30's 3 of the other times.  They also had their star player just up and leave on them.  And during those five seasons drafted DeRozan and Valanciunas among others.

Cavs had 4 seasons without Lebron, whose leaving sort of left them in a lurch with a bunch of veteran contracts that didn't make sense on a rebuilding team.

Pistons are in a bit of down stretch, but seem to be going in the right direction being led by Drummond and Monroe (you know two guys they drafted in the top ten recently).

The Nets have never gone more than 5 seasons without being in the playoffs.

The Knicks are always trading their first rounders to try and be relevant.  They are actually the poster child for why you shouldn't trade a bunch of first round picks for veteran players.

The Bucks seems like an odd pick since the early 90's have never been outside of the playoffs for more than 3 seasons at any given time (and the early 90's was following a stretch where they made the playoffs ever single season for over a decade).  The Bucks are actually an example of why you shouldn't try the mediocre game because unless you get lucky in the lottery you are going to be stuck in mediocrity forever, which is no top ten picks and no real chance of contending, which is what they have been for the last 15 years or so.  This year they finally got a top 3 pick and he unfortunately got injured.  Of course they are also .500 right now.

You've got to go back to the 1979 Super Sonics to find a team that has won an NBA title within five years of missing the playoffs for at least three consecutive seasons. 

If titles are the goal, a prolonged period of tanking doesn't seem like the best method of achieving that goal. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2015, 09:36:23 AM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33432
  • Tommy Points: 1532
Star Players who were drafted ouside top 10:

Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Joe Johnson
Klay Thompson
Al Jefferson
Clyde Drexler
Karl Malone
Shawn Kemp
John Stockton
Jermaine O'neal
Reggie Miller


Most of them are alpha-male stars. The point is chance of getting a star player in that range is close to top 10.

Consider, though, all the players drafted outside the top 10 that didn't become stars.

Consider also all the teams that spend years in the lottery and get multiple top ten picks and still never are any good.

Mike
Timberwolves, Kings, 76ers... umm...

Is that it?

Pitino Celtics
Pre-Ujiri Raptors
Cavs outside LeBron
Pistons
Bobcats
Nets
Knicks
Bucks
Um, Pitino was here for 4 drafts, which netted Boston among other Paul Pierce.  Not sure I'd use him as an example of a team in perpetual mediocrity.

Toronto was in the lottery 5 years, though won 40 games once and was in the mid-30's 3 of the other times.  They also had their star player just up and leave on them.  And during those five seasons drafted DeRozan and Valanciunas among others.

Cavs had 4 seasons without Lebron, whose leaving sort of left them in a lurch with a bunch of veteran contracts that didn't make sense on a rebuilding team.

Pistons are in a bit of down stretch, but seem to be going in the right direction being led by Drummond and Monroe (you know two guys they drafted in the top ten recently).

The Nets have never gone more than 5 seasons without being in the playoffs.

The Knicks are always trading their first rounders to try and be relevant.  They are actually the poster child for why you shouldn't trade a bunch of first round picks for veteran players.

The Bucks seems like an odd pick since the early 90's have never been outside of the playoffs for more than 3 seasons at any given time (and the early 90's was following a stretch where they made the playoffs ever single season for over a decade).  The Bucks are actually an example of why you shouldn't try the mediocre game because unless you get lucky in the lottery you are going to be stuck in mediocrity forever, which is no top ten picks and no real chance of contending, which is what they have been for the last 15 years or so.  This year they finally got a top 3 pick and he unfortunately got injured.  Of course they are also .500 right now.

You've got to go back to the 1979 Super Sonics to find a team that has won an NBA title within five years of missing the playoffs for at least three consecutive seasons. 

If titles are the goal, a prolonged period of tanking doesn't seem like the best method of achieving that goal.
But the question is did the tanking, get you the players that were the foundation of title teams.  San Antonio tanked for Duncan.  Chicago was terrible and landed Jordan and then Pippen and then tanked again and landed Rose and Noah (no title but still a real contender).  Seattle/OKC tanked and got Durant, Westbrook, and Harden (and yeah I know they didn't win a title yet, but I think most people would take their run even after they lost Harden).  Dallas tanked for the Kidd, Mashburn, Jackson team which was plagued by injuries and ultimately didn't work out and then tanked again and landed Dirk. 

The Indiana model is a tough one to achieve i.e. no real high draft picks but a real contender.  Historically you either have to build through the draft or attract the high value free agents.  Most teams aren't attractive enough draws to land the high value free agents (like the Lakers or Heat) so the draft really is the only method. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2015, 10:18:04 AM »

Offline Evantime34

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11942
  • Tommy Points: 764
  • Eagerly Awaiting the Next Fantasy Draft
The C's have played top 10 defense since December 5th. If they play well enough to end the season in the top 10 for defense then they have built a culture of defense that the young guys can carry through their development. A top 10 defense could help recruit free agents as well.

I want the C's to make the playoffs, if they can play well in the second half and earn it. If they slide in because all the other teams in the East suck then I will not be happy.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2015, 10:24:16 AM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34022
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
This team does not have NBA playoff talent.


I do not want to see the become the 8th seed sacrificial lamb just because other East teams stunk. 



The Celtics need to add top level talent.  Sneaking into the playoffs not because of how well the team is playing but because of other teams playing like junk does not help the team. 



Now if by some miracle, the Celtics started to play to the point they were above 500, that would be fine.  But most of us know it is not going to happen.

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2015, 10:28:40 AM »

Offline Evantime34

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11942
  • Tommy Points: 764
  • Eagerly Awaiting the Next Fantasy Draft
Now if by some miracle, the Celtics started to play to the point they were above 500, that would be fine.  But most of us know it is not going to happen.
I think it's not going to happen but I don't know it isn't going to happen. If they can keep up top 10 defense against the worst schedule in the league (Forsberg's article stated that they have the easiest schedule in the league going forward) I could see them getting hot enough to be around .500

I do agree that the C's sliding into the playoffs because the other teams vying for the 8th spot suck would be the worst outcome.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2015, 10:28:57 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11134
  • Tommy Points: 1304
  • I'm a Paul Heyman guy.
We shouldn't have traded Rondo and Green and added better talent if that's the case.

I would root for this team to win, but making the Playoffs would do nothing for us this year. Were just going to get swept by the Hawks.
2019 CStrong Historical Draft 2000s OKC Thunder.
PG: Jrue Holiday / Isaiah Thomas / Larry Hughes
SG: Paul George / Aaron McKie / Bradley Beal
SF: Paul Pierce / Tayshaun Prince / Brian Scalabrine
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge / Shareef Abdur-Raheem / Ben Simmons
C: Jermaine O'neal / Ben Wallace

Re: making the playoffs could be the better plan
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2015, 10:34:50 AM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
Disturbingly based on point differential we're slight favorites to capture the 8th seed. Not somewhere I'd like the C's to be given their push to sell off everyone.

I really don't have much interest in watching the Hawks detonate us in the playoffs first round.