Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas

[GreenFaith1819]

He did what Cousy and DJ did before him - become the lesser player for the good of the team.

Wait...Rondo dogging it on defense was for the good of the Celtics?  The Mavs don't need Rondo to score, rebound or pass? 

Mike

Rondo is 1st on the team in passing, at 7.1 per. That is in only 16 games. Next is Monta, at 4.5 - but in 44 games.

He is averaging 5.1 rebounds, which is only .9 behind the no. 2 rebounder in Dirk (6.0 per game).

Scoring? He has elite scorers around him, like he did in 07-08..........10.1 per game is FINE on the DAL team, and actually nearly 2 more per game than BOS.

Guess we can blame Brad for the stats in BOS? Oh, wait....................

[GreenFaith1819]

I think it's interesting to talk about Rondo because before the knee injury, you could make the a argument Rondo was becoming one of the special players in the league.  He was the best passing and rebounding pg in the league, could play great defense and was capable of giving you single-game performances on the same level as LeBron and Durant.

That guy is nowhere to be seen and hasn't been around for a while.

I expected Rondo to come in and tear it up this season.  He was going to be the unquestioned leader of a team playing at a faster pace than Boston ever had with Rondo before, and he was on a team full of players you'd think a pg like Rondo could make them look better than what they are.  Instead, Rondo dogged his way into a trade.

Now he's on a team that wants to think it's a contender and, sure, he improves their defense.  They could have replaced Jameer Nelson with a mailbox and it would have improved their defense.  Shouldn't Rondo at this point in his career be more than an inferior version of Tony Allen?

Mike

You think this is because of Brad Stevens, maybe?

I'm not the biggest fan of Stevens but if Rondo just gave the same effort in Boston that he's been giving in Dallas, he might not have been traded.

Mike

Tell that to Danny Ainge.

I'm pretty sure no one was more surprised and disappointed than Ainge when Rondo came into his contract year and frequently looked like a shell of himself.

Mike

Or - perhaps Danny was more disappointed that KLove basically chose CLE instead of us...sure, Flip wasn't going to help us out any, but Danny could not build a team around Rondo to keep him here.

And then conveniently trades him to DAL for seemingly less that what he's worth. Let the bashing begin.

Oh, wait - let's trade away our OTHER supposed slacker, Jeff Green...let's send him to MEM (another contender).

Next is Bass?

Danny knew what he was going to do long before any of us knew, and that's ok. He was already set on jettisoning Rondo (and Jeff) after the summer's rumors died down.

Our rebuild actually began in July, sadly. Danny wasn't going to trade Rondo until he at least showcased him this season.

So...Love is the only star player Ainge EVER thought about acquiring?  Not DeMarcus Cousins?  Not Marc Gasol?  Not Carmello?  Love goes to Cleveland and Ainge says "Well, I guess since there is not now and never will be any other star that I might be able to get, let me give away for scraps the single best asset the team has"?

Mike

Talk to Danny about that.

All I know is that once he traded away Rondo for seemingly less, he fit perfectly into Danny's plan of eventually blowing it up.

He's become the pariah of the Blog, now...the vultures waiting for any tidbit that is negative to latch onto...and conveniently ignoring the good games where he helped the team.

But at least Jeff Green is getting a free pass, seemingly.

All I know is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IERLxyAvoIk

Do your thing in DAL, Rajon. Wish you the best.

[LarBrd33]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

Well, whatever you think his story is, it is still being written.

We can gloat, speculate, etc - all day long as to the what/when/where/hows, for DAL this season and beyond.

The haters will continue to puff their chests out and conveniently ignore the facts, and also cherry pick stats and metrics to try to support their claims.

If DAL goes far, the Haters will say it's NOT because of Rondo. TBH - it's NOT because of Rondo (or anyone else, for that matter) - but in a TEAM concept you need pieces to make it work.

Subconsciously there are some here who wanted DAL to go on a 20 game losing streak after the trade...they haven't and won't.

And as always around here - if CP3 (or Westbrook or whomever) don't win it all then it'll be conveniently ignored - or excuses made for their failure.

Some things never change.

All I know is that THIS starting five NEVER lost a series:



And for that, I'm glad.

As far as subconsciously wanting them to go on a 20 game losing streak... Actually, I openly hope they fall out of the playoffs, because then we'd get their 1st this year.  But I don't expect that to happen.  They had a solid playoff team before the trade and they are a solid playoff team after the trade. I don't think anyone expected rondo to show up and destroy the basketball ability of dirk, monta, Tyson and parsons.  Those guys can play. If they were able to have the best offense in the league with jameer Nelson, they shouldn't fall out of contention with the arrival of rondo.

My whole thing was that Rondo didn't move the needle for them.  I figured he'd hurt their offense.  So far, that seems to be happening.  They have a worse win percentage since the trade.

I think they can still win a series or two.  But i highly doubt rondo will lead them there.  If he averages 6 points, 3 assists and 3 turnovers (like his last 4 games), you can't really claim they are winning "because of rondo". That would be like saying the 2008 celtics won "because of pj brown".

And the fact that you name dropped Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook in a discussion about rondo highlights why this debate persists.  Rondo had never been on that level.  The fact that some folks here overrated him and insisted on comparing him to vastly superior guards is why you have "haters" pointing out how untrue it is.   Ive never hated rondo as a player. I just saw him for the lovable flawed player he was and others didn't. By the end of the season, this debate will officially be dead one way or the other.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

Well, whatever you think his story is, it is still being written.

We can gloat, speculate, etc - all day long as to the what/when/where/hows, for DAL this season and beyond.

The haters will continue to puff their chests out and conveniently ignore the facts, and also cherry pick stats and metrics to try to support their claims.

If DAL goes far, the Haters will say it's NOT because of Rondo. TBH - it's NOT because of Rondo (or anyone else, for that matter) - but in a TEAM concept you need pieces to make it work.

Subconsciously there are some here who wanted DAL to go on a 20 game losing streak after the trade...they haven't and won't.

And as always around here - if CP3 (or Westbrook or whomever) don't win it all then it'll be conveniently ignored - or excuses made for their failure.

Some things never change.

All I know is that THIS starting five NEVER lost a series:



And for that, I'm glad.

As far as subconsciously wanting them to go on a 20 game losing streak... Actually, I openly hope they fall out of the playoffs, because then we'd get their 1st this year.  But I don't expect that to happen.  They had a solid playoff team before the trade and they are a solid playoff team after the trade. I don't think anyone expected rondo to show up and destroy the basketball ability of dirk, monta, Tyson and parsons.  Those guys can play. If they were able to have the best offense in the league with jameer Nelson, they shouldn't fall out of contention with the arrival of rondo.

My whole thing was that Rondo didn't move the needle for them.  I figured he'd hurt their offense.  So far, that seems to be happening.  They have a worse win percentage since the trade.

I think they can still win a series or two.  But i highly doubt rondo will lead them there.  If he averages 6 points, 3 assists and 3 turnovers (like his last 4 games), you can't really claim they are winning "because of rondo". That would be like saying the 2008 celtics won "because of pj brown".

And the fact that you name dropped Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook in a discussion about rondo highlights why this debate persists.  Rondo had never been on that level.  The fact that some folks here overrated him and insisted on comparing him to vastly superior guards is why you have "haters" pointing out how untrue it is.   Ive never hated rondo as a player. I just saw him for the lovable flawed player he was and others didn't. By the end of the season, this debate will officially be dead one way or the other.

For the 1st bolded - he DOES move the needle DEFENSIVELY for DAL, as I've noted several times in this thread (and you've conveniently ignored).

For the 2nd bolded - Since you mention it - PJ Brown was key in several examples in our playoff run in 07-08.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUd8xFrOcE

Remember that dunk over Kobe's head during our miraculous comeback in Game 4 2008?

And your third bolded? For all of the prettiness of CP3 and Westbrook - Rajon has something they don't have. You keep mentioning "same level", LarBrd33 - what in the world is that level?

To have the prettiest game in the NBA? To be an explosive dunker? What? What exactly are we gloating over with CP3 and Westbrook?

Watch Westbrook (and OKC) lose to CLE today, while you're at it.

[LarBrd33]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

Well, whatever you think his story is, it is still being written.

We can gloat, speculate, etc - all day long as to the what/when/where/hows, for DAL this season and beyond.

The haters will continue to puff their chests out and conveniently ignore the facts, and also cherry pick stats and metrics to try to support their claims.

If DAL goes far, the Haters will say it's NOT because of Rondo. TBH - it's NOT because of Rondo (or anyone else, for that matter) - but in a TEAM concept you need pieces to make it work.

Subconsciously there are some here who wanted DAL to go on a 20 game losing streak after the trade...they haven't and won't.

And as always around here - if CP3 (or Westbrook or whomever) don't win it all then it'll be conveniently ignored - or excuses made for their failure.

Some things never change.

All I know is that THIS starting five NEVER lost a series:



And for that, I'm glad.

As far as subconsciously wanting them to go on a 20 game losing streak... Actually, I openly hope they fall out of the playoffs, because then we'd get their 1st this year.  But I don't expect that to happen.  They had a solid playoff team before the trade and they are a solid playoff team after the trade. I don't think anyone expected rondo to show up and destroy the basketball ability of dirk, monta, Tyson and parsons.  Those guys can play. If they were able to have the best offense in the league with jameer Nelson, they shouldn't fall out of contention with the arrival of rondo.

My whole thing was that Rondo didn't move the needle for them.  I figured he'd hurt their offense.  So far, that seems to be happening.  They have a worse win percentage since the trade.

I think they can still win a series or two.  But i highly doubt rondo will lead them there.  If he averages 6 points, 3 assists and 3 turnovers (like his last 4 games), you can't really claim they are winning "because of rondo". That would be like saying the 2008 celtics won "because of pj brown".

And the fact that you name dropped Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook in a discussion about rondo highlights why this debate persists.  Rondo had never been on that level.  The fact that some folks here overrated him and insisted on comparing him to vastly superior guards is why you have "haters" pointing out how untrue it is.   Ive never hated rondo as a player. I just saw him for the lovable flawed player he was and others didn't. By the end of the season, this debate will officially be dead one way or the other.

For the 1st bolded - he DOES move the needle DEFENSIVELY for DAL, as I've noted several times in this thread (and you've conveniently ignored).

For the 2nd bolded - Since you mention it - PJ Brown was key in several examples in our playoff run in 07-08.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUd8xFrOcE

Remember that dunk over Kobe's head during our miraculous comeback in Game 4 2008?

And your third bolded? For all of the prettiness of CP3 and Westbrook - Rajon has something they don't have. You keep mentioning "same level", LarBrd33 - what in the world is that level?

To have the prettiest game in the NBA? To be an explosive dunker? What? What exactly are we gloating over with CP3 and Westbrook?

Watch Westbrook (and OKC) lose to CLE today, while you're at it.

Come on green faith... Rondo is nowhere near the talent level of the guys you are name dropping. That's the issue... He's obscenely overrated.  At most he maybe cracked the top 10 point guards for a season or two.  At this point he might not even be in the top 20.

Also, if he moves the needle defensively it's negated by the fact he moves the needle in the other direction offensively. You get that right?  It's a give and take.  He helps a little and hurts a little. At the end of the day he doesn't matter. 

Fwiw, I never hated 'Toine either. There is a lot of similarities between those two lovable overrated stat-chasers.  I remember when we traded toine a lot of people reacted like we just got rid of a superstar PF.  Clearly that wasn't true. Kind of ironic, actually... One of the middling pieces we received in the Walker trade was jiri welsh. We traded jiri for a future pick. We traded that pick for Rondo. Funny when you think about it... Probably the same fans who pouted about trading Walker also pouted about trading rondo... Yet we wouldn't have received rondo had we not traded Walker. Lol.

[hwangjini_1]

let's see, another rondo thread.

similar arguments to the other 23,847 rondo threads, same cast of characters playing the same roles, abundant data, "definitive "info, stats galore, a plethora personal slights, numerous accusations, and no one has changed their mind.

so, it's business as usual here at cb.

am i on target?

[GreenFaith1819]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

Well, whatever you think his story is, it is still being written.

We can gloat, speculate, etc - all day long as to the what/when/where/hows, for DAL this season and beyond.

The haters will continue to puff their chests out and conveniently ignore the facts, and also cherry pick stats and metrics to try to support their claims.

If DAL goes far, the Haters will say it's NOT because of Rondo. TBH - it's NOT because of Rondo (or anyone else, for that matter) - but in a TEAM concept you need pieces to make it work.

Subconsciously there are some here who wanted DAL to go on a 20 game losing streak after the trade...they haven't and won't.

And as always around here - if CP3 (or Westbrook or whomever) don't win it all then it'll be conveniently ignored - or excuses made for their failure.

Some things never change.

All I know is that THIS starting five NEVER lost a series:



And for that, I'm glad.

As far as subconsciously wanting them to go on a 20 game losing streak... Actually, I openly hope they fall out of the playoffs, because then we'd get their 1st this year.  But I don't expect that to happen.  They had a solid playoff team before the trade and they are a solid playoff team after the trade. I don't think anyone expected rondo to show up and destroy the basketball ability of dirk, monta, Tyson and parsons.  Those guys can play. If they were able to have the best offense in the league with jameer Nelson, they shouldn't fall out of contention with the arrival of rondo.

My whole thing was that Rondo didn't move the needle for them.  I figured he'd hurt their offense.  So far, that seems to be happening.  They have a worse win percentage since the trade.

I think they can still win a series or two.  But i highly doubt rondo will lead them there.  If he averages 6 points, 3 assists and 3 turnovers (like his last 4 games), you can't really claim they are winning "because of rondo". That would be like saying the 2008 celtics won "because of pj brown".

And the fact that you name dropped Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook in a discussion about rondo highlights why this debate persists.  Rondo had never been on that level.  The fact that some folks here overrated him and insisted on comparing him to vastly superior guards is why you have "haters" pointing out how untrue it is.   Ive never hated rondo as a player. I just saw him for the lovable flawed player he was and others didn't. By the end of the season, this debate will officially be dead one way or the other.

For the 1st bolded - he DOES move the needle DEFENSIVELY for DAL, as I've noted several times in this thread (and you've conveniently ignored).

For the 2nd bolded - Since you mention it - PJ Brown was key in several examples in our playoff run in 07-08.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUd8xFrOcE

Remember that dunk over Kobe's head during our miraculous comeback in Game 4 2008?

And your third bolded? For all of the prettiness of CP3 and Westbrook - Rajon has something they don't have. You keep mentioning "same level", LarBrd33 - what in the world is that level?

To have the prettiest game in the NBA? To be an explosive dunker? What? What exactly are we gloating over with CP3 and Westbrook?

Watch Westbrook (and OKC) lose to CLE today, while you're at it.

Come on green faith... Rondo is nowhere near the talent level of the guys you are name dropping. That's the issue... He's obscenely overrated.  At most he maybe cracked the top 10 point guards for a season or two.  At this point he might not even be in the top 20.

Also, if he moves the needle defensively it's negated by the fact he moves the needle in the other direction offensively. You get that right?  It's a give and take.  He helps a little and hurts a little. At the end of the day he doesn't matter. 

Fwiw, I never hated 'Toine either. There is a lot of similarities between those two lovable overrated stat-chasers.  I remember when we traded toine a lot of people reacted like we just got rid of a superstar PF.  Clearly that wasn't true. Kind of ironic, actually... One of the middling pieces we received in the Walker trade was jiri welsh. We traded jiri for a future pick. We traded that pick for Rondo. Funny when you think about it... Probably the same fans who pouted about trading Walker also pouted about trading rondo... Yet we wouldn't have received rondo had we not traded Walker. Lol.

But you keep missing the point, LarBrd33.

You need more than TALENT in the NBA.....you know this, surely.

And I've never thought or said on here that Rajon was CP3's or Westbrook's level talent-wise - even though the great Magic Johnson once said "Rajon is the 2nd best player in the post-season" (behind LeBron).

And his stats have been better than CP3's and Westbrook's as far as distributing, and defensively as well.

But WAIT - Defense isn't pretty is it? Nor is passing?

For all that talent - what has CP3 and Westbrook done? Seriously? What have they accomplished, LarBrd?

What I've said is that he has a Banner - something that CP3 or Westbrook doesn't have and may not ever have.

So, will CP3 and Westbrook get into the HOF? Probably, because their games are pretty.

But they may not have a banner attached to it.

[GreenFaith1819]

let's see, another rondo thread.

similar arguments to the other 23,847 rondo threads, same cast of characters playing the same roles, abundant data, "definitive "info, stats galore, a plethora personal slights, numerous accusations, and no one has changed their mind.

so, it's business as usual here at cb.

am i on target?

Not my fault, lol.

I was waiting for a POSITIVE Rondo Thread after their big win in MEM, buuuuuut....

[LarBrd33]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

Well, whatever you think his story is, it is still being written.

We can gloat, speculate, etc - all day long as to the what/when/where/hows, for DAL this season and beyond.

The haters will continue to puff their chests out and conveniently ignore the facts, and also cherry pick stats and metrics to try to support their claims.

If DAL goes far, the Haters will say it's NOT because of Rondo. TBH - it's NOT because of Rondo (or anyone else, for that matter) - but in a TEAM concept you need pieces to make it work.

Subconsciously there are some here who wanted DAL to go on a 20 game losing streak after the trade...they haven't and won't.

And as always around here - if CP3 (or Westbrook or whomever) don't win it all then it'll be conveniently ignored - or excuses made for their failure.

Some things never change.

All I know is that THIS starting five NEVER lost a series:



And for that, I'm glad.

As far as subconsciously wanting them to go on a 20 game losing streak... Actually, I openly hope they fall out of the playoffs, because then we'd get their 1st this year.  But I don't expect that to happen.  They had a solid playoff team before the trade and they are a solid playoff team after the trade. I don't think anyone expected rondo to show up and destroy the basketball ability of dirk, monta, Tyson and parsons.  Those guys can play. If they were able to have the best offense in the league with jameer Nelson, they shouldn't fall out of contention with the arrival of rondo.

My whole thing was that Rondo didn't move the needle for them.  I figured he'd hurt their offense.  So far, that seems to be happening.  They have a worse win percentage since the trade.

I think they can still win a series or two.  But i highly doubt rondo will lead them there.  If he averages 6 points, 3 assists and 3 turnovers (like his last 4 games), you can't really claim they are winning "because of rondo". That would be like saying the 2008 celtics won "because of pj brown".

And the fact that you name dropped Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook in a discussion about rondo highlights why this debate persists.  Rondo had never been on that level.  The fact that some folks here overrated him and insisted on comparing him to vastly superior guards is why you have "haters" pointing out how untrue it is.   Ive never hated rondo as a player. I just saw him for the lovable flawed player he was and others didn't. By the end of the season, this debate will officially be dead one way or the other.

For the 1st bolded - he DOES move the needle DEFENSIVELY for DAL, as I've noted several times in this thread (and you've conveniently ignored).

For the 2nd bolded - Since you mention it - PJ Brown was key in several examples in our playoff run in 07-08.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUd8xFrOcE

Remember that dunk over Kobe's head during our miraculous comeback in Game 4 2008?

And your third bolded? For all of the prettiness of CP3 and Westbrook - Rajon has something they don't have. You keep mentioning "same level", LarBrd33 - what in the world is that level?

To have the prettiest game in the NBA? To be an explosive dunker? What? What exactly are we gloating over with CP3 and Westbrook?

Watch Westbrook (and OKC) lose to CLE today, while you're at it.

Come on green faith... Rondo is nowhere near the talent level of the guys you are name dropping. That's the issue... He's obscenely overrated.  At most he maybe cracked the top 10 point guards for a season or two.  At this point he might not even be in the top 20.

Also, if he moves the needle defensively it's negated by the fact he moves the needle in the other direction offensively. You get that right?  It's a give and take.  He helps a little and hurts a little. At the end of the day he doesn't matter. 

Fwiw, I never hated 'Toine either. There is a lot of similarities between those two lovable overrated stat-chasers.  I remember when we traded toine a lot of people reacted like we just got rid of a superstar PF.  Clearly that wasn't true. Kind of ironic, actually... One of the middling pieces we received in the Walker trade was jiri welsh. We traded jiri for a future pick. We traded that pick for Rondo. Funny when you think about it... Probably the same fans who pouted about trading Walker also pouted about trading rondo... Yet we wouldn't have received rondo had we not traded Walker. Lol.

But you keep missing the point, LarBrd33.

You need more than TALENT in the NBA.....you know this, surely.

And I've never thought or said on here that Rajon was CP3's or Westbrook's level talent-wise - even though the great Magic Johnson once said "Rajon is the 2nd best player in the post-season" (behind LeBron).

And his stats have been better than CP3's and Westbrook's as far as distributing, and defensively as well.

But WAIT - Defense isn't pretty is it? Nor is passing?

For all that talent - what has CP3 and Westbrook done? Seriously? What have they accomplished, LarBrd?

What I've said is that he has a Banner - something that CP3 or Westbrook doesn't have and may not ever have.

So, will CP3 and Westbrook get into the HOF? Probably, because their games are pretty.

But they may not have a banner attached to it.

Neato. How many banners does Derrick fisher got ?  Solid defender too.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

Well, whatever you think his story is, it is still being written.

We can gloat, speculate, etc - all day long as to the what/when/where/hows, for DAL this season and beyond.

The haters will continue to puff their chests out and conveniently ignore the facts, and also cherry pick stats and metrics to try to support their claims.

If DAL goes far, the Haters will say it's NOT because of Rondo. TBH - it's NOT because of Rondo (or anyone else, for that matter) - but in a TEAM concept you need pieces to make it work.

Subconsciously there are some here who wanted DAL to go on a 20 game losing streak after the trade...they haven't and won't.

And as always around here - if CP3 (or Westbrook or whomever) don't win it all then it'll be conveniently ignored - or excuses made for their failure.

Some things never change.

All I know is that THIS starting five NEVER lost a series:



And for that, I'm glad.

As far as subconsciously wanting them to go on a 20 game losing streak... Actually, I openly hope they fall out of the playoffs, because then we'd get their 1st this year.  But I don't expect that to happen.  They had a solid playoff team before the trade and they are a solid playoff team after the trade. I don't think anyone expected rondo to show up and destroy the basketball ability of dirk, monta, Tyson and parsons.  Those guys can play. If they were able to have the best offense in the league with jameer Nelson, they shouldn't fall out of contention with the arrival of rondo.

My whole thing was that Rondo didn't move the needle for them.  I figured he'd hurt their offense.  So far, that seems to be happening.  They have a worse win percentage since the trade.

I think they can still win a series or two.  But i highly doubt rondo will lead them there.  If he averages 6 points, 3 assists and 3 turnovers (like his last 4 games), you can't really claim they are winning "because of rondo". That would be like saying the 2008 celtics won "because of pj brown".

And the fact that you name dropped Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook in a discussion about rondo highlights why this debate persists.  Rondo had never been on that level.  The fact that some folks here overrated him and insisted on comparing him to vastly superior guards is why you have "haters" pointing out how untrue it is.   Ive never hated rondo as a player. I just saw him for the lovable flawed player he was and others didn't. By the end of the season, this debate will officially be dead one way or the other.

For the 1st bolded - he DOES move the needle DEFENSIVELY for DAL, as I've noted several times in this thread (and you've conveniently ignored).

For the 2nd bolded - Since you mention it - PJ Brown was key in several examples in our playoff run in 07-08.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUd8xFrOcE

Remember that dunk over Kobe's head during our miraculous comeback in Game 4 2008?

And your third bolded? For all of the prettiness of CP3 and Westbrook - Rajon has something they don't have. You keep mentioning "same level", LarBrd33 - what in the world is that level?

To have the prettiest game in the NBA? To be an explosive dunker? What? What exactly are we gloating over with CP3 and Westbrook?

Watch Westbrook (and OKC) lose to CLE today, while you're at it.

Come on green faith... Rondo is nowhere near the talent level of the guys you are name dropping. That's the issue... He's obscenely overrated.  At most he maybe cracked the top 10 point guards for a season or two.  At this point he might not even be in the top 20.

Also, if he moves the needle defensively it's negated by the fact he moves the needle in the other direction offensively. You get that right?  It's a give and take.  He helps a little and hurts a little. At the end of the day he doesn't matter. 

Fwiw, I never hated 'Toine either. There is a lot of similarities between those two lovable overrated stat-chasers.  I remember when we traded toine a lot of people reacted like we just got rid of a superstar PF.  Clearly that wasn't true. Kind of ironic, actually... One of the middling pieces we received in the Walker trade was jiri welsh. We traded jiri for a future pick. We traded that pick for Rondo. Funny when you think about it... Probably the same fans who pouted about trading Walker also pouted about trading rondo... Yet we wouldn't have received rondo had we not traded Walker. Lol.

But you keep missing the point, LarBrd33.

You need more than TALENT in the NBA.....you know this, surely.

And I've never thought or said on here that Rajon was CP3's or Westbrook's level talent-wise - even though the great Magic Johnson once said "Rajon is the 2nd best player in the post-season" (behind LeBron).

And his stats have been better than CP3's and Westbrook's as far as distributing, and defensively as well.

But WAIT - Defense isn't pretty is it? Nor is passing?

For all that talent - what has CP3 and Westbrook done? Seriously? What have they accomplished, LarBrd?

What I've said is that he has a Banner - something that CP3 or Westbrook doesn't have and may not ever have.

So, will CP3 and Westbrook get into the HOF? Probably, because their games are pretty.

But they may not have a banner attached to it.

Neato. How many banners does Derrick fisher got ?  Solid defender too.

OH C'MON MAN lol

So now Rondo is being compared to Derrick? Let me guess....

...you make this comparison because Derrick can shoot.

[tstorey_97]

I can go either way with Rondo. Very talented kid. I'm glad he got traded simply because there is nothing in Boston for him, but, a musical chairs roster and as many losses as Ainge can get.

He's with a legit contender and a solid head coach. I understand that many rely on stats, but, I will stick with the "it's a team sport." In my many decades, I've watched my share of KC Jones type stars who put up zippo stat lines, but, are part of a team that wins.

At this moment in time, Rondo can't hit a foul shot...I think 23% or something horrible like that. This is not good at the end of tight games...obviously. It is one of this player's numerous weaknesses which, are balanced by many strengths. I tend to agree with those who think Rondo is in decline, but, I also contend, he is still in the top group of "big game players."

My point,

FADE IN:
Dallas is in the western finals and it is a rock fight, series tied at 3-3. You have a choice of Nelson (you get my point, right?), Harris or Rondo...who's going to start? Every TV camera in the world is on this kid. Carlisle will start Rondo....he has to...it will be his to win or lose.

[Eddie20]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

Well, whatever you think his story is, it is still being written.

We can gloat, speculate, etc - all day long as to the what/when/where/hows, for DAL this season and beyond.

The haters will continue to puff their chests out and conveniently ignore the facts, and also cherry pick stats and metrics to try to support their claims.

If DAL goes far, the Haters will say it's NOT because of Rondo. TBH - it's NOT because of Rondo (or anyone else, for that matter) - but in a TEAM concept you need pieces to make it work.

Subconsciously there are some here who wanted DAL to go on a 20 game losing streak after the trade...they haven't and won't.

And as always around here - if CP3 (or Westbrook or whomever) don't win it all then it'll be conveniently ignored - or excuses made for their failure.

Some things never change.

All I know is that THIS starting five NEVER lost a series:



And for that, I'm glad.

As far as subconsciously wanting them to go on a 20 game losing streak... Actually, I openly hope they fall out of the playoffs, because then we'd get their 1st this year.  But I don't expect that to happen.  They had a solid playoff team before the trade and they are a solid playoff team after the trade. I don't think anyone expected rondo to show up and destroy the basketball ability of dirk, monta, Tyson and parsons.  Those guys can play. If they were able to have the best offense in the league with jameer Nelson, they shouldn't fall out of contention with the arrival of rondo.

My whole thing was that Rondo didn't move the needle for them.  I figured he'd hurt their offense.  So far, that seems to be happening.  They have a worse win percentage since the trade.

I think they can still win a series or two.  But i highly doubt rondo will lead them there.  If he averages 6 points, 3 assists and 3 turnovers (like his last 4 games), you can't really claim they are winning "because of rondo". That would be like saying the 2008 celtics won "because of pj brown".

And the fact that you name dropped Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook in a discussion about rondo highlights why this debate persists.  Rondo had never been on that level.  The fact that some folks here overrated him and insisted on comparing him to vastly superior guards is why you have "haters" pointing out how untrue it is.   Ive never hated rondo as a player. I just saw him for the lovable flawed player he was and others didn't. By the end of the season, this debate will officially be dead one way or the other.

For the 1st bolded - he DOES move the needle DEFENSIVELY for DAL, as I've noted several times in this thread (and you've conveniently ignored).

For the 2nd bolded - Since you mention it - PJ Brown was key in several examples in our playoff run in 07-08.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUd8xFrOcE

Remember that dunk over Kobe's head during our miraculous comeback in Game 4 2008?

And your third bolded? For all of the prettiness of CP3 and Westbrook - Rajon has something they don't have. You keep mentioning "same level", LarBrd33 - what in the world is that level?

To have the prettiest game in the NBA? To be an explosive dunker? What? What exactly are we gloating over with CP3 and Westbrook?

Watch Westbrook (and OKC) lose to CLE today, while you're at it.

Come on green faith... Rondo is nowhere near the talent level of the guys you are name dropping. That's the issue... He's obscenely overrated.  At most he maybe cracked the top 10 point guards for a season or two.  At this point he might not even be in the top 20.

Also, if he moves the needle defensively it's negated by the fact he moves the needle in the other direction offensively. You get that right?  It's a give and take.  He helps a little and hurts a little. At the end of the day he doesn't matter. 

Fwiw, I never hated 'Toine either. There is a lot of similarities between those two lovable overrated stat-chasers.  I remember when we traded toine a lot of people reacted like we just got rid of a superstar PF.  Clearly that wasn't true. Kind of ironic, actually... One of the middling pieces we received in the Walker trade was jiri welsh. We traded jiri for a future pick. We traded that pick for Rondo. Funny when you think about it... Probably the same fans who pouted about trading Walker also pouted about trading rondo... Yet we wouldn't have received rondo had we not traded Walker. Lol.

But you keep missing the point, LarBrd33.

You need more than TALENT in the NBA.....you know this, surely.

And I've never thought or said on here that Rajon was CP3's or Westbrook's level talent-wise - even though the great Magic Johnson once said "Rajon is the 2nd best player in the post-season" (behind LeBron).

And his stats have been better than CP3's and Westbrook's as far as distributing, and defensively as well.

But WAIT - Defense isn't pretty is it? Nor is passing?

For all that talent - what has CP3 and Westbrook done? Seriously? What have they accomplished, LarBrd?

What I've said is that he has a Banner - something that CP3 or Westbrook doesn't have and may not ever have.

So, will CP3 and Westbrook get into the HOF? Probably, because their games are pretty.

But they may not have a banner attached to it.

Neato. How many banners does Derrick fisher got ?  Solid defender too.

OH C'MON MAN lol

So now Rondo is being compared to Derrick? Let me guess....

...you make this comparison because Derrick can shoot.

You're so far gone in your state of delusion that I'm not sure it's even possible to have a debate with you. You continue to live in the past by talking about Rondo winning a title as a role player in 08, showing a photo of Rondo holding a trophy in 08 (Big Baby has a pic like this too btw), posting a PJ Brown (retired in 08) highlight video, and then the Rondo tribute video, which only chronicles things he did from 2012 and prior. You say basketball is a team game and that Rondo has a title, which obviously better PG's (CP3 and Westbrook) don't, but then are dismissive when it's pointed out that Fisher and Chalmers have more titles than Rondo. Oh, and let's not forget that you want a thread about Rondo's otherworldly game against Memphis, the one where he unbelievably had 6 pts and 1 ast in 26 minutes. A performance for the ages!

You're definitely a very reasonable character, who cares if your reasoning is devoid of any logic.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

Well, whatever you think his story is, it is still being written.

We can gloat, speculate, etc - all day long as to the what/when/where/hows, for DAL this season and beyond.

The haters will continue to puff their chests out and conveniently ignore the facts, and also cherry pick stats and metrics to try to support their claims.

If DAL goes far, the Haters will say it's NOT because of Rondo. TBH - it's NOT because of Rondo (or anyone else, for that matter) - but in a TEAM concept you need pieces to make it work.

Subconsciously there are some here who wanted DAL to go on a 20 game losing streak after the trade...they haven't and won't.

And as always around here - if CP3 (or Westbrook or whomever) don't win it all then it'll be conveniently ignored - or excuses made for their failure.

Some things never change.

All I know is that THIS starting five NEVER lost a series:



And for that, I'm glad.

As far as subconsciously wanting them to go on a 20 game losing streak... Actually, I openly hope they fall out of the playoffs, because then we'd get their 1st this year.  But I don't expect that to happen.  They had a solid playoff team before the trade and they are a solid playoff team after the trade. I don't think anyone expected rondo to show up and destroy the basketball ability of dirk, monta, Tyson and parsons.  Those guys can play. If they were able to have the best offense in the league with jameer Nelson, they shouldn't fall out of contention with the arrival of rondo.

My whole thing was that Rondo didn't move the needle for them.  I figured he'd hurt their offense.  So far, that seems to be happening.  They have a worse win percentage since the trade.

I think they can still win a series or two.  But i highly doubt rondo will lead them there.  If he averages 6 points, 3 assists and 3 turnovers (like his last 4 games), you can't really claim they are winning "because of rondo". That would be like saying the 2008 celtics won "because of pj brown".

And the fact that you name dropped Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook in a discussion about rondo highlights why this debate persists.  Rondo had never been on that level.  The fact that some folks here overrated him and insisted on comparing him to vastly superior guards is why you have "haters" pointing out how untrue it is.   Ive never hated rondo as a player. I just saw him for the lovable flawed player he was and others didn't. By the end of the season, this debate will officially be dead one way or the other.

For the 1st bolded - he DOES move the needle DEFENSIVELY for DAL, as I've noted several times in this thread (and you've conveniently ignored).

For the 2nd bolded - Since you mention it - PJ Brown was key in several examples in our playoff run in 07-08.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUd8xFrOcE

Remember that dunk over Kobe's head during our miraculous comeback in Game 4 2008?

And your third bolded? For all of the prettiness of CP3 and Westbrook - Rajon has something they don't have. You keep mentioning "same level", LarBrd33 - what in the world is that level?

To have the prettiest game in the NBA? To be an explosive dunker? What? What exactly are we gloating over with CP3 and Westbrook?

Watch Westbrook (and OKC) lose to CLE today, while you're at it.

Come on green faith... Rondo is nowhere near the talent level of the guys you are name dropping. That's the issue... He's obscenely overrated.  At most he maybe cracked the top 10 point guards for a season or two.  At this point he might not even be in the top 20.

Also, if he moves the needle defensively it's negated by the fact he moves the needle in the other direction offensively. You get that right?  It's a give and take.  He helps a little and hurts a little. At the end of the day he doesn't matter. 

Fwiw, I never hated 'Toine either. There is a lot of similarities between those two lovable overrated stat-chasers.  I remember when we traded toine a lot of people reacted like we just got rid of a superstar PF.  Clearly that wasn't true. Kind of ironic, actually... One of the middling pieces we received in the Walker trade was jiri welsh. We traded jiri for a future pick. We traded that pick for Rondo. Funny when you think about it... Probably the same fans who pouted about trading Walker also pouted about trading rondo... Yet we wouldn't have received rondo had we not traded Walker. Lol.

But you keep missing the point, LarBrd33.

You need more than TALENT in the NBA.....you know this, surely.

And I've never thought or said on here that Rajon was CP3's or Westbrook's level talent-wise - even though the great Magic Johnson once said "Rajon is the 2nd best player in the post-season" (behind LeBron).

And his stats have been better than CP3's and Westbrook's as far as distributing, and defensively as well.

But WAIT - Defense isn't pretty is it? Nor is passing?

For all that talent - what has CP3 and Westbrook done? Seriously? What have they accomplished, LarBrd?

What I've said is that he has a Banner - something that CP3 or Westbrook doesn't have and may not ever have.

So, will CP3 and Westbrook get into the HOF? Probably, because their games are pretty.

But they may not have a banner attached to it.

Neato. How many banners does Derrick fisher got ?  Solid defender too.

OH C'MON MAN lol

So now Rondo is being compared to Derrick? Let me guess....

...you make this comparison because Derrick can shoot.

You're so far gone in your state of delusion that I'm not sure it's even possible to have a debate with you. You continue to live in the past by talking about Rondo winning a title as a role player in 08, showing a photo of Rondo holding a trophy in 08 (Big Baby has a pic like this too btw), posting a PJ Brown (retired in 08) highlight video, and then the Rondo tribute video, which only chronicles things he did from 2012 and prior. You say basketball is a team game and that Rondo has a title, which obviously better PG's (CP3 and Westbrook) don't, but then are dismissive when it's pointed out that Fisher and Chalmers have more titles than Rondo. Oh, and let's not forget that you want a thread about Rondo's otherworldly game against Memphis, the one where he unbelievably had 6 pts and 1 ast in 26 minutes. A performance for the ages!

You're definitely a very reasonable character, who cares if your reasoning is devoid of any logic.

Eddie - I'm as logical as the other side of the spectrum here on the blog when it comes to Rondo.

You figure that out for me.

[SHAQATTACK]

Miss ol T Ball Tim......Ha ....ya 'll run him plum off the blog .

The Rondo LazyGate debate continues ....on and on.

[GreenFaith1819]

Miss ol T Ball Tim......Ha ....ya 'll run him plum off the blog .

The Rondo LazyGate debate continues ....on and on.

The great thing is how CP3 and Westbrook gets free passes on here.

CP3 is 29 going on 30...made key mistakes in their series with GSW last year....BUT: Blame that series loss on Donald.

Westbrook can shoot, dunk, run fast, etc, etc....but just hasn't won a championship series yet.

Some here value talent over winning.