Author Topic: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas  (Read 44389 times)

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Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2015, 09:50:41 PM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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I see Celticsblog's obsession with Rondo has yet to conclude. I'm glad to see he's still popular, and divisive, on here.

Can we get updates on Pierce too?

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2015, 10:02:41 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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rondo's true value will become more evident in the playoffs, when the mavs need a tough-minded player who can break down defenses.
a lot of these western conference teams are frauds who play a regular season style that won't hold up late in the playoffs. the mavs were such a team before the rondo trade. i think he gives them a least a chance to go all the way. if anything sinks them, it won't be rondo, it will be their age and too many weak defenders.

But wait - aren't those Western Conference frauds the ones who can shoot...can alleyoop...can dunk? That is pretty, and sells tickets.

But Defense wins championships...but it isn't pretty.

That's why MEM/DAL or the Spurs will be left standing in June...and they'll fight it out to see who will come out of the West.

Rondo will always be a pariah to some here on CelticsBlog. His game wasn't/hasn't always been pretty. He's been the boy scout and fit in to whatever Doc (and Coach Stevens) asked him to do.

He distributed the ball to the divas of our past team (Ray, PP and KG)...like Doc told/asked him to do.

He did what Coach Stevens asked him to do, too.

He did what Cousy and DJ did before him - become the lesser player for the good of the team.

DJ and Cousy are HOFers...with less than glowing stats as some of their respective peers. I think once the book is closed, Rondo will be one, too.

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2015, 10:03:30 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I see Celticsblog's obsession with Rondo has yet to conclude. I'm glad to see he's still popular, and divisive, on here.

Can we get updates on Pierce too?

But Mom, I didn't start the thread.... :)

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2015, 10:07:54 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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My comment has nothing to do with RR but why is everyone saying GSW are all about offense? So the defense they are playing doesn't matter?
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2015, 10:11:45 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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My comment has nothing to do with RR but why is everyone saying GSW are all about offense? So the defense they are playing doesn't matter?

I'm one of the posters who don't believe that GSW will go far in the playoffs. I'm just a fan so I'm no expert.

Someone here (I think "Who") stated that they are 12th in the league in defense, which isn't bad at all.

But the last several title winners (Lakers/BOS/Spurs/MIA/DAL) I believe were ranked higher than 12th.

While they've improved, barring Bogut helping them I just don't think they're ready - and even then I'm very skeptical.

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2015, 10:16:53 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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My comment has nothing to do with RR but why is everyone saying GSW are all about offense? So the defense they are playing doesn't matter?

I'm one of the posters who don't believe that GSW will go far in the playoffs. I'm just a fan so I'm no expert.

Someone here (I think "Who") stated that they are 12th in the league in defense, which isn't bad at all.

But the last several title winners (Lakers/BOS/Spurs/MIA/DAL) I believe were ranked higher than 12th.

While they've improved, barring Bogut helping them I just don't think they're ready - and even then I'm very skeptical.


I wasn't talking about whether they would win in the playoffs or not. I'm saying they have defended well and then their offense is great. They are more than an offensive team.
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2015, 10:21:01 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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My comment has nothing to do with RR but why is everyone saying GSW are all about offense? So the defense they are playing doesn't matter?

I'm one of the posters who don't believe that GSW will go far in the playoffs. I'm just a fan so I'm no expert.

Someone here (I think "Who") stated that they are 12th in the league in defense, which isn't bad at all.

But the last several title winners (Lakers/BOS/Spurs/MIA/DAL) I believe were ranked higher than 12th.

While they've improved, barring Bogut helping them I just don't think they're ready - and even then I'm very skeptical.


I wasn't talking about whether they would win in the playoffs or not. I'm saying they have defended well and then their offense is great. They are more than an offensive team.

You're right..plus the emergence of Draymond Green gives them another weapon. They're impressive, on paper, to me.

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2015, 10:31:43 PM »

Offline MBunge

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I think it's interesting to talk about Rondo because before the knee injury, you could make the a argument Rondo was becoming one of the special players in the league.  He was the best passing and rebounding pg in the league, could play great defense and was capable of giving you single-game performances on the same level as LeBron and Durant.

That guy is nowhere to be seen and hasn't been around for a while.

I expected Rondo to come in and tear it up this season.  He was going to be the unquestioned leader of a team playing at a faster pace than Boston ever had with Rondo before, and he was on a team full of players you'd think a pg like Rondo could make them look better than what they are.  Instead, Rondo dogged his way into a trade.

Now he's on a team that wants to think it's a contender and, sure, he improves their defense.  They could have replaced Jameer Nelson with a mailbox and it would have improved their defense.  Shouldn't Rondo at this point in his career be more than an inferior version of Tony Allen?

Mike

You think this is because of Brad Stevens, maybe?

I'm not the biggest fan of Stevens but if Rondo just gave the same effort in Boston that he's been giving in Dallas, he might not have been traded.

Mike

Tell that to Danny Ainge.

I'm pretty sure no one was more surprised and disappointed than Ainge when Rondo came into his contract year and frequently looked like a shell of himself.

Mike

Or - perhaps Danny was more disappointed that KLove basically chose CLE instead of us...sure, Flip wasn't going to help us out any, but Danny could not build a team around Rondo to keep him here.

And then conveniently trades him to DAL for seemingly less that what he's worth. Let the bashing begin.

Oh, wait - let's trade away our OTHER supposed slacker, Jeff Green...let's send him to MEM (another contender).

Next is Bass?

Danny knew what he was going to do long before any of us knew, and that's ok. He was already set on jettisoning Rondo (and Jeff) after the summer's rumors died down.

Our rebuild actually began in July, sadly. Danny wasn't going to trade Rondo until he at least showcased him this season.

So...Love is the only star player Ainge EVER thought about acquiring?  Not DeMarcus Cousins?  Not Marc Gasol?  Not Carmello?  Love goes to Cleveland and Ainge says "Well, I guess since there is not now and never will be any other star that I might be able to get, let me give away for scraps the single best asset the team has"?

Mike

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2015, 10:37:07 PM »

Offline GetLucky

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My comment has nothing to do with RR but why is everyone saying GSW are all about offense? So the defense they are playing doesn't matter?

I'm one of the posters who don't believe that GSW will go far in the playoffs. I'm just a fan so I'm no expert.

Someone here (I think "Who") stated that they are 12th in the league in defense, which isn't bad at all.

But the last several title winners (Lakers/BOS/Spurs/MIA/DAL) I believe were ranked higher than 12th.

While they've improved, barring Bogut helping them I just don't think they're ready - and even then I'm very skeptical.


I wasn't talking about whether they would win in the playoffs or not. I'm saying they have defended well and then their offense is great. They are more than an offensive team.

You're right..plus the emergence of Draymond Green gives them another weapon. They're impressive, on paper, to me.

This isn't the old Golden State- they actually have a decent defense now. They're 12th best in points allowed per game, 17th best in points in the paint allowed, and 1st in opponents' assist-TO ratio. Combine an average defense that forces turnovers with the best offense in the NBA, and you get a team with the best average point differential (+12.1) in the league. While Curry may be a weak defender, I would venture to say that Thompson is at least average with good size (6'7"), and Green and Bogut are well above average defenders. I think they are the real deal. All numbers from here: http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/team/golden-state-warriors/stats


 :P

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2015, 10:40:36 PM »

Offline MBunge

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He did what Cousy and DJ did before him - become the lesser player for the good of the team.


Wait...Rondo dogging it on defense was for the good of the Celtics?  The Mavs don't need Rondo to score, rebound or pass? 

Mike

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2015, 10:47:14 PM »

Offline GetLucky

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I think it's interesting to talk about Rondo because before the knee injury, you could make the a argument Rondo was becoming one of the special players in the league.  He was the best passing and rebounding pg in the league, could play great defense and was capable of giving you single-game performances on the same level as LeBron and Durant.

That guy is nowhere to be seen and hasn't been around for a while.

I expected Rondo to come in and tear it up this season.  He was going to be the unquestioned leader of a team playing at a faster pace than Boston ever had with Rondo before, and he was on a team full of players you'd think a pg like Rondo could make them look better than what they are.  Instead, Rondo dogged his way into a trade.

Now he's on a team that wants to think it's a contender and, sure, he improves their defense.  They could have replaced Jameer Nelson with a mailbox and it would have improved their defense.  Shouldn't Rondo at this point in his career be more than an inferior version of Tony Allen?

Mike

^ I essentially agree with this. One of my fears before the season (that I briefly summarized in some obscure preseason thread) was that Rondo would become on of the biggest "what if" players ever. What if he focused on scoring when he still averaged 14 a game and could dunk over Chris Bosh? What if he shot more jumpers when he was averaging an efficient 14 a game? We're looking at Chris Paul numbers with just modest uptick in usage. (18 and 10 were the benchmark, at the time, if I remember correctly.)

This is what makes it so hard to let go. Rondo was so close to finally putting it all together and getting the recognition many people felt he deserved as one of the NBA's elite, and then he has a career-altering injury. Last year, he was recovering and flashed better 3-point range. We were giddy. "Next year," we all said, "when he gets all of his athleticism back and starts gunning the three ball, he'll be amazing." Alas, the athleticism hasn't come back yet, and it might not ever again. Rondo is at the point where he is capable of playing world-class basketball, but at sporadic intervals. That's why I still follow him. Some part of me still thinks he'll put it all together, be more dynamic than ever, and take the world by storm with his now-above-30% three point percentage. It will be interesting. One positive sign is that he's still capable of playing great defense when he wants to, so the lateral quickness is not totally gone. But he doesn't attack the rim with reckless abandon anymore, for good or bad, and it remains to be seen if he ever will again (see Derrick Rose now).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 10:53:54 PM by GetLucky »

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2015, 11:00:35 PM »

Offline moiso

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I predicted a honeymoon period.  Seems like it's over. ;)

I'm enjoying this.  This is Antoine Walker all over again.  A loveable, obscenely overrated Celtic, who racked up empty stats due to our quirky system... and was exposed as soon as we dumped him off on Dallas. 

Rondo has been horrible. Particularly in his last 4 games as the Mavericks realize what guys like Zach Lowe and myself were saying immediately following the deal... he hurts their pace-and-space offense.   Last 4 for the superstah:  5.8 points, 4 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 0.8 steals, 2.8 turnovers, 33%/33%/0%.   He hasn't made a free throw this year, btw.

He cracked double-digit assists once in his past 14 games.  Rhetorical question:  Can one still be considered the "best pure point guard" in the league when he's averaging 7 assists and 3 turnovers... or is that label contingent on him racking up empty assists in a offense that caters to his weaknesses?

Mavs fans are already worried.  Forget about offering him the max, several of the Mavs fans think 12 mil a year is an overpay.  The apologists on the forum lean on the fact he's a "great defensive improvement".  Neat... should have just brought in a defensive role player then... preferably one who can hit an open shot once in a while.   Can they be happy that Rondo is their poor man's Bruce Bowen?  Dunno.   Regardless, seems all the Mavs fans acknowledge that the system is a bad fit for Rondo and that the offense improves with Barea out there. 

Functionally, he just doesn't make sense on that team.  They rely on spacing and ball movement.  Rondo NEEDS the ball in his hand to be at all effective.  Rondo is a complete liability when others control it (and unfortunately, Ellis is a better ball-dominating guard).  I've been saying this for years, but this is the first opportunity to see it proven as Dallas tries to incorporate him into their free-flowing offense.  Sure, if you had paid attention to the Celtics you'd notice that Stevens likes that form of offense as well... they simply didn't run it when Rondo played, because Rondo can't do it.  In Dallas, teams are leaving him insultingly wide open.  Sure, he'll respond 1 out of 6 games with an off-character shooting display.  But teams will continue to leave him wide open.     Playoff series are 7 games.  Teams are going to be fine living and dying with Rajon Rondo's shooting. 

Most of the myths are being dispelled.  We still need to see the "Playoff Rondo" myth dispelled, but I have a hunch it's coming.  Unless they give Rondo the keys to the car and relegate Ellis to off-the-ball duty, you're not going to see "Playoff Rondo". 

Of course, I could be wrong.  Maybe he's just learning the tendencies of his teammates and adjusting.  Maybe we've yet to see the best of Rondo.   Going to be interesting to see where his career goes from this.  Toine didn't last very long after his Dallas exposure.  I mean, Monta Ellis couldn't co-exist with a god-like shooter named Steph Curry.  I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to co-exist with an offensive-inept Rajon Rondo.   One thing that could turn around Rondo's season is an injury to Ellis.  If that happens and they replace Ellis with a Kyle Korver type who can hit open shots,  Rondo has a chance take the reigns and get his stats.

Silly.

Antoine Walker helped Miami win a championship.  Might have been interesting to have him here in Boston during the KG-Pierce-Allen years.  WE might have another banner!

I wouldn't be surprised to see him lead another team to a championship. 

I find it awesome that you prefaced your post with "silly" then followed up with one of the most nonsensical things one could say with that Antoine comment.

Also, what team did Rondo lead to a championship? "Lead" being the key word. It's revisionist history to think Rondo was anything other than an along for the ride/role player in 08. If he "lead" us to a title then that definition is so loose it would apply to Posey and Perk as well.

I'll try to take a stab at ThaPreacher's "Silly" remark....

It is "Silly" that DAL got a big win on the road IN MEM just a few days ago...Rondo made some KEY PLAYS down the stretch....and no one started a thread about that game, then.

Because Rondo ACTUALLY played well? OH EM GEEE.

But this thread here will be about 10-20 pages long examining all the angles as to why Rondo was benched last night.

That, My Friend, "IS SILLY":)

What did Rondo do against Memphis that made you put "KEY PLAYS" in caps? I'll admit I didn't watch the game, but I'll happily watch the final 4Q in the league pass archives to see what he did.  The box score has him playing only 26 minutes scoring 6 pts on 3-8 shooting, 3 reb, 1 ast, and 2 TO's.

I think it's noteworthy that Carlisle benched him, especially for Devin Harris. A coach plays/trusts his best players down the stretch and apparently Carlisle doesn't.

And....you make this statement after ONE game? That is as generalized a statement as I've seen on here.

Evidently, on CelticsBlog - some posters CAN make generalized statements, but some CAN'T?

But anyway here's the quotes/link from the MEM game:

Quote
However, in Monday's road win against the Memphis Grizzlies, Rondo played a critical role in Dallas' 14-4 run to close the game, scoring on a floater and baseline jumper to start the spurt after the Mavs briefly lost the lead.

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/12220179/rajon-rondo-benching-crunch-coach-decision-rick-carlisle-says

Don't count Rajon Rondo out, LOL.....he's been groomed in KG's kitchen.



He's helped DAL tremendously defensively (a fact that's been conveniently ignored around here), and that is why they got him.

Yes, it's one game, but he's only played 16 games. Pretty quick for something like this to happen. However, a bigger tale is that his minutes are only trending downwards. When he first arrived in Dallas he was consistently getting above 30 mpg (7 out of 9 games), but has received mpg in the 20's, and has only been above 30 mpg in 1 out of his last 7 games.

So they got him simply to be a flashy Avery Johnson? That's a lot of money for a defensive player who's FT% will go down in infamy.

It's not 2012 anymore. Some people need to realize that the Rondo that they knew and obviously adored has clearly lost a step. This is exactly what happens to athletically dependent players who never developed their offensive game. The days of Rondo being mentioned in the same breath as other top 5 PG's is so gone it's laughable. He's now fully entrenched in the middle of the pack of PG's, being very kind here, and only those that are honest with themselves can admit it.

LOL you say this and Rajon Rondo averaged 8.3 pts, 10.8 assists, 7.5 rebs, 1.7 steals in 32 min for us.

In DAL? He's averaging 10.4 pts, 1.6 steals, 7.1 assists, 5.1 rebounds in 31 min - with a better team around him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html

And, besides Tony Parker - Rajon Rondo has something that "The Other Top PGs" don't have:



Remember - basketball is a TEAM sport. Rondo's fitting in quite nicely.

By posting a picture that happened in 2008 doesn't it make you realize that perhaps you're living in the past? Not sure if you've just awoken from a deep frozen state, but it's 2015. Math not my best subject, but that's 7 years ago. That's what the Rondo boys do, they harp on the past because there isn't much to talk about in the present, and the future looks even more bleak.
TP for my favorite post in this thread.  Back when this picture was taken you could have made an argument that Steve Nash was the best point guard in the league.  Nash has also lost a few steps :-\  That was a long freaking time ago.

Rondo has looked like an average at best pg for a couple of years now, and that's being generous.  The old Rondo is not coming back, the playoff Rondo is not coming back.  Thinking that the old Rondo is coming back is like thinking Kobe will be on Lebron's level next year.

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2015, 11:14:13 PM »

Offline ThaPreacher

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I predicted a honeymoon period.  Seems like it's over. ;)

I'm enjoying this.  This is Antoine Walker all over again.  A loveable, obscenely overrated Celtic, who racked up empty stats due to our quirky system... and was exposed as soon as we dumped him off on Dallas. 

Rondo has been horrible. Particularly in his last 4 games as the Mavericks realize what guys like Zach Lowe and myself were saying immediately following the deal... he hurts their pace-and-space offense.   Last 4 for the superstah:  5.8 points, 4 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 0.8 steals, 2.8 turnovers, 33%/33%/0%.   He hasn't made a free throw this year, btw.

He cracked double-digit assists once in his past 14 games.  Rhetorical question:  Can one still be considered the "best pure point guard" in the league when he's averaging 7 assists and 3 turnovers... or is that label contingent on him racking up empty assists in a offense that caters to his weaknesses?

Mavs fans are already worried.  Forget about offering him the max, several of the Mavs fans think 12 mil a year is an overpay.  The apologists on the forum lean on the fact he's a "great defensive improvement".  Neat... should have just brought in a defensive role player then... preferably one who can hit an open shot once in a while.   Can they be happy that Rondo is their poor man's Bruce Bowen?  Dunno.   Regardless, seems all the Mavs fans acknowledge that the system is a bad fit for Rondo and that the offense improves with Barea out there. 

Functionally, he just doesn't make sense on that team.  They rely on spacing and ball movement.  Rondo NEEDS the ball in his hand to be at all effective.  Rondo is a complete liability when others control it (and unfortunately, Ellis is a better ball-dominating guard).  I've been saying this for years, but this is the first opportunity to see it proven as Dallas tries to incorporate him into their free-flowing offense.  Sure, if you had paid attention to the Celtics you'd notice that Stevens likes that form of offense as well... they simply didn't run it when Rondo played, because Rondo can't do it.  In Dallas, teams are leaving him insultingly wide open.  Sure, he'll respond 1 out of 6 games with an off-character shooting display.  But teams will continue to leave him wide open.     Playoff series are 7 games.  Teams are going to be fine living and dying with Rajon Rondo's shooting. 

Most of the myths are being dispelled.  We still need to see the "Playoff Rondo" myth dispelled, but I have a hunch it's coming.  Unless they give Rondo the keys to the car and relegate Ellis to off-the-ball duty, you're not going to see "Playoff Rondo". 

Of course, I could be wrong.  Maybe he's just learning the tendencies of his teammates and adjusting.  Maybe we've yet to see the best of Rondo.   Going to be interesting to see where his career goes from this.  Toine didn't last very long after his Dallas exposure.  I mean, Monta Ellis couldn't co-exist with a god-like shooter named Steph Curry.  I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to co-exist with an offensive-inept Rajon Rondo.   One thing that could turn around Rondo's season is an injury to Ellis.  If that happens and they replace Ellis with a Kyle Korver type who can hit open shots,  Rondo has a chance take the reigns and get his stats.

Silly.

Antoine Walker helped Miami win a championship.  Might have been interesting to have him here in Boston during the KG-Pierce-Allen years.  WE might have another banner!

I wouldn't be surprised to see him lead another team to a championship. 

I find it awesome that you prefaced your post with "silly" then followed up with one of the most nonsensical things one could say with that Antoine comment.

Also, what team did Rondo lead to a championship? "Lead" being the key word. It's revisionist history to think Rondo was anything other than an along for the ride/role player in 08. If he "lead" us to a title then that definition is so loose it would apply to Posey and Perk as well.


Clearly, you need to re-examine what I wrote.   

But let me make clear my position: It is silly to disparage a player to the degree many of the people posting on this Blog do.  Basketball is a team game.  Contrary to the ESPN Hype Machine. There is more to a player's contribution than a stat sheet.  I think it's foolish to attempt to declare a players demise based on him sitting out part of the 4th quarter. It's foolish to call him over rated.
Boston fans and media have the terrible habit of over scrutinizing players and coaches.

Rondo has been a uniquely gifted, player capable of brilliance.  As a long time basketball player, coach and fan, I will continue to hope that he excels.

I remember watching how fans and the media treated Nomar Garciaparra in his waning days in Boston. A few years earlier the same people had deified him.... (Deify means to treat like a god).

I would hope that Dallas had enough sense to realize what Rondo's strengths and weaknesses were before they made the trade.  Like all NBA players, he has them.

We were all along for the ride in 2007-2008!  Because Basketball is a team game.  Players, Coaches, GMs and fans have roles.   

I wish Rondo the very best.

But the jury is still out at this point. On Rondo and his final effect on the Mavs. And it is just Silly....plain Ol' Silly to think otherwise.
"Just do what you do best."  -Red Auerbach-

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2015, 09:46:17 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I know a lot of people kind of complain about the Rondo threads but I actually enjoy following him and seeing how he does in Dallas as compared to how he did in Boston.  I am with the group that felt Rondo was grossly overrated here on the blog and really around the league in general.  His really poor shooting was masked by Pierce-Garnett-Allen and when exposed, Rondo struggled; both here and is struggling in Dallas.  I say struggling meaning he is not playing like the all star Rondo.

I thought Rondo was going to have a good year this year.  It is impossible to know what is going on with his knee but to me, he looks fine on the court.  I know some are saying he has lost some explosiveness by I think that is more of a convenient "conventional wisdom" kind of conclusion.  I don't see any problem when he pushes the ball, goes for rebounds, or drives to the hoop.  The knee appears fine but I have to admit, I am worried that maybe there really is something wrong with him which would be a shame.

Now of course the knee is not affecting his free throw shooting and he is having an epically bad season at the line.  So I actually still think he is fine physically, he is just in some kind of mental straight jacket that is messing with his game and his confidence.

The main point of this post is to say that if the Rondo we are seeing now is really the best we will ever see again, whether because of the knee or whatever, what a shame.

Re: Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2015, 10:07:10 AM »

Online hwangjini_1

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for what it is worth, after 16 games in dallas rondo's free throw shooting is at 23.5%, 4 for 17. how this will play out in fourth quarters should be interesting to watch.
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