Rondo benched down the stretch in Dallas

[MBunge]

Here are a few facts about Rondo's impact in Dallas I posted the other day in another thread.

Per 82games, which I used just because they are the easiest to sort through, particularly on a phone, Rondo has the following Drtg and Ortg:

Dallas Drtg on court (294 minutes): 96.8
Dallas Drtg off court (1453 minutes): 109.7

Dallas Ortg on court (294 minutes): 110.6
Dallas Ortg off Court (1453 minutes): 117.0

Drtg +/- (-12.8 )
Ortg +/- (-6.4)
Net +/- (+6.4)

The conclusion that can be drawn here is that Rondo has had a negative impact on the Mavs overall offensive efficiency. Without Rondo Dallas was playing at a other-worldly good efficiency on offense. But even with Rondo, they are still very good on offense.

However, when looking at the astounding impact Rondo has had on the Mavs defense, in which they went from being utterly terrible to one of the best defensive units in the league with Rondo on the court, it becomes evident the good more than outweighs the bad.

Bottom line is, Dallas is still a highly efficient offense with Rondo, bit is now also a very good defensive team with Rondo as well. Rondo has had a net impact of +6.4 points per 100 possessions, in terms of on/off numbers, when you consider both sides of the ball.

I think the difference in minutes with and without Rondo is too great to prove anything.

Mike

[LarBrd33]

Here are a few facts about Rondo's impact in Dallas I posted the other day in another thread.

Per 82games, which I used just because they are the easiest to sort through, particularly on a phone, Rondo has the following Drtg and Ortg:

Dallas Drtg on court (294 minutes): 96.8
Dallas Drtg off court (1453 minutes): 109.7

Dallas Ortg on court (294 minutes): 110.6
Dallas Ortg off Court (1453 minutes): 117.0

Drtg +/- (-12.8 )
Ortg +/- (-6.4)
Net +/- (+6.4)

The conclusion that can be drawn here is that Rondo has had a negative impact on the Mavs overall offensive efficiency. Without Rondo Dallas was playing at a other-worldly good efficiency on offense. But even with Rondo, they are still very good on offense.

However, when looking at the astounding impact Rondo has had on the Mavs defense, in which they went from being utterly terrible to one of the best defensive units in the league with Rondo on the court, it becomes evident the good more than outweighs the bad.

Bottom line is, Dallas is still a highly efficient offense with Rondo, bit is now also a very good defensive team with Rondo as well. Rondo has had a net impact of +6.4 points per 100 possessions, in terms of on/off numbers, when you consider both sides of the ball.

Now if I could just get LarBrd33 to acknowledge THIS POST...................

I'll acknowledge it... in a limited sample, it seems Rajon Rondo makes more of an impact on defense than Jameer Nelson.  Go figure.

Slightly outdated stats, though... as tends to happen when you're using a sample size less than 20 games.  Here's a comment on it from an article today:

The Mavericks' defense has risen from no. 20 prior to the Rondo trade to no. 8 since (99.8 defensive rating), but their offense has also fallen from best in the league to no. 8 (106.0 offensive rating). The Mavericks trailed 92-85 in the fourth quarter when Carlisle opted to sub Devin Harris in for Rondo, who finished with six points on 3-9 shooting and four assists.

So better defense and worse offense.  Basically a trade-off.  I've never felt Rondo would make them significantly worse.   All I've been saying since the trade is that the Rondo trade doesn't really move the needle for either team.  So far, that appears correct.

Interesting to see Rondo re-invent himself as a defensive role player... a poor man's Avery Bradley if you will.  What does that make Rondo now?  An overpaid Derrick Fisher who can't shoot?

[GreenFaith1819]

Here are a few facts about Rondo's impact in Dallas I posted the other day in another thread.

Per 82games, which I used just because they are the easiest to sort through, particularly on a phone, Rondo has the following Drtg and Ortg:

Dallas Drtg on court (294 minutes): 96.8
Dallas Drtg off court (1453 minutes): 109.7

Dallas Ortg on court (294 minutes): 110.6
Dallas Ortg off Court (1453 minutes): 117.0

Drtg +/- (-12.8 )
Ortg +/- (-6.4)
Net +/- (+6.4)

The conclusion that can be drawn here is that Rondo has had a negative impact on the Mavs overall offensive efficiency. Without Rondo Dallas was playing at a other-worldly good efficiency on offense. But even with Rondo, they are still very good on offense.

However, when looking at the astounding impact Rondo has had on the Mavs defense, in which they went from being utterly terrible to one of the best defensive units in the league with Rondo on the court, it becomes evident the good more than outweighs the bad.

Bottom line is, Dallas is still a highly efficient offense with Rondo, bit is now also a very good defensive team with Rondo as well. Rondo has had a net impact of +6.4 points per 100 possessions, in terms of on/off numbers, when you consider both sides of the ball.

Now if I could just get LarBrd33 to acknowledge THIS POST...................

I'll acknowledge it... in a limited sample, it seems Rajon Rondo makes more of an impact on defense than Jameer Nelson.  Go figure.

Slightly outdated stats, though... as tends to happen when you're using a sample size less than 20 games.  Here's a comment on it from an article today:

The Mavericks' defense has risen from no. 20 prior to the Rondo trade to no. 8 since (99.8 defensive rating), but their offense has also fallen from best in the league to no. 8 (106.0 offensive rating). The Mavericks trailed 92-85 in the fourth quarter when Carlisle opted to sub Devin Harris in for Rondo, who finished with six points on 3-9 shooting and four assists.

So better defense and worse offense.  Basically a trade-off.  I've never felt Rondo would make them significantly worse.   All I've been saying since the trade is that the Rondo trade doesn't really move the needle for either team.  So far, that appears correct.

Interesting to see Rondo re-invent himself as a defensive role player... a poor man's Avery Bradley if you will.  What does that make Rondo now?  An overpaid Derrick Fisher who can't shoot?

You, my friend - are beautiful.

You're constantly avoiding the fact that evidently that is what DAL wanted (to get better defensively)?

Basketball is a TEAM sport...as Celtics Fans we should know this. DAL became an overall better team, now....one that can compete into May-June 2015 and perhaps give Dirk his 2nd Banner (And Rondo's).

[jonaslopes]

A lot of people here hate Rondo... and love Hinkie. True Celts.

For the record, I don't hate him.   Sure, it's nice seeing him get exposed as overrated after having argued with fellow fans for years that he was overrated... but I don't hate him.   I'm looking forward to seeing him continue the Antoine Walker trajectory... exposed in Dallas... bounce around to a couple more teams... eventually come back to Boston in a publicity stunt where he wears #99 and helps us make the playoffs... Dumped again... A couple more awkward seasons as a role player until he runs himself out of the league.

Oh, you DON'T hate him. Ok, hinker, we all get it.

[MBunge]

Here are a few facts about Rondo's impact in Dallas I posted the other day in another thread.

Per 82games, which I used just because they are the easiest to sort through, particularly on a phone, Rondo has the following Drtg and Ortg:

Dallas Drtg on court (294 minutes): 96.8
Dallas Drtg off court (1453 minutes): 109.7

Dallas Ortg on court (294 minutes): 110.6
Dallas Ortg off Court (1453 minutes): 117.0

Drtg +/- (-12.8 )
Ortg +/- (-6.4)
Net +/- (+6.4)

The conclusion that can be drawn here is that Rondo has had a negative impact on the Mavs overall offensive efficiency. Without Rondo Dallas was playing at a other-worldly good efficiency on offense. But even with Rondo, they are still very good on offense.

However, when looking at the astounding impact Rondo has had on the Mavs defense, in which they went from being utterly terrible to one of the best defensive units in the league with Rondo on the court, it becomes evident the good more than outweighs the bad.

Bottom line is, Dallas is still a highly efficient offense with Rondo, bit is now also a very good defensive team with Rondo as well. Rondo has had a net impact of +6.4 points per 100 possessions, in terms of on/off numbers, when you consider both sides of the ball.

Now if I could just get LarBrd33 to acknowledge THIS POST...................

I'll acknowledge it... in a limited sample, it seems Rajon Rondo makes more of an impact on defense than Jameer Nelson.  Go figure.

Slightly outdated stats, though... as tends to happen when you're using a sample size less than 20 games.  Here's a comment on it from an article today:

The Mavericks' defense has risen from no. 20 prior to the Rondo trade to no. 8 since (99.8 defensive rating), but their offense has also fallen from best in the league to no. 8 (106.0 offensive rating). The Mavericks trailed 92-85 in the fourth quarter when Carlisle opted to sub Devin Harris in for Rondo, who finished with six points on 3-9 shooting and four assists.

So better defense and worse offense.  Basically a trade-off.  I've never felt Rondo would make them significantly worse.   All I've been saying since the trade is that the Rondo trade doesn't really move the needle for either team.  So far, that appears correct.

Interesting to see Rondo re-invent himself as a defensive role player... a poor man's Avery Bradley if you will.  What does that make Rondo now?  An overpaid Derrick Fisher who can't shoot?

You, my friend - are beautiful.

You're constantly avoiding the fact that evidently that is what DAL wanted (to get better defensively)?

Basketball is a TEAM sport...as Celtics Fans we should know this. DAL became an overall better team, now....one that can compete into May-June 2015 and perhaps give Dirk his 2nd Banner (And Rondo's).

You say they're a better team but they have a worse record.

How does it make Rondo look good to point out he's gone from being a potential max contract guy to a defensive role player?

Mike

[jonaslopes]

I really loved this quote.

[jonaslopes]

I really loved this quote, LarBrd33.

[P stoff]

Saying that Dallas is a better team (overall) with Rondo is unproven. Like Mike says, replace Nelson with any average defender and shooter at PG and i bet you get pretty much the same overall outcome.

He hurts the offense and helps the defense... which in the big picture means he cant shoot or space the floor like Nelson, but defends much better. No kidding.

Rondo (right now) is making little impact either way on the team W/L record IMO... which was exactly what we experienced pre-trade.   

[LarBrd33]

I really loved this quote, LarBrd33.

Lol but seriously, I actually do like Rondo.  I just got tired explaining why he wasn't on Chris Paul or Steph Curry's level.  One of my favorite subplots of this season is watching the Rondo debate come to a definitive end.  Either he proves his worth and leads Dallas to greatness or he's exposed.  By the end of the season, we should have a pretty clear answer.

He can be a really good player.  He doesn't seem like a fit in Dallas, but if you stuck him with 4 Kyle Korvers, he'd get a ton of assists. 

I wouldn't mind signing him to a reasonable contract this summer after his humbling Dallas experience.

[Tr1boy]

Danny is a genius.

Rondo without full use of his athleticism is not that great of a pg in this league.   His health may never be 100 percent imo

Mavs can only hope Rondo brings his magic to the playoffs. Or else I can see them trading him to the Lakers for example by the trade deadline. It's up to how carlise uses him from now till the deadline. More benching in the 4th, more likely Rondo will be gone. 

If a lakers trade was going to happen (Mavs will have to eat the extra they gave us for Rondo)

To Lakers: Rondo, Felton
To Mavs: Lin, Ed Davis, Jordan Clarson, 2nd round pick

[LarBrd33]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

 

[GreenFaith1819]

I think it's interesting to talk about Rondo because before the knee injury, you could make the a argument Rondo was becoming one of the special players in the league.  He was the best passing and rebounding pg in the league, could play great defense and was capable of giving you single-game performances on the same level as LeBron and Durant.

That guy is nowhere to be seen and hasn't been around for a while.

I expected Rondo to come in and tear it up this season.  He was going to be the unquestioned leader of a team playing at a faster pace than Boston ever had with Rondo before, and he was on a team full of players you'd think a pg like Rondo could make them look better than what they are.  Instead, Rondo dogged his way into a trade.

Now he's on a team that wants to think it's a contender and, sure, he improves their defense.  They could have replaced Jameer Nelson with a mailbox and it would have improved their defense.  Shouldn't Rondo at this point in his career be more than an inferior version of Tony Allen?

Mike

You think this is because of Brad Stevens, maybe?

[Eddie20]

I predicted a honeymoon period.  Seems like it's over.

I'm enjoying this.  This is Antoine Walker all over again.  A loveable, obscenely overrated Celtic, who racked up empty stats due to our quirky system... and was exposed as soon as we dumped him off on Dallas. 

Rondo has been horrible. Particularly in his last 4 games as the Mavericks realize what guys like Zach Lowe and myself were saying immediately following the deal... he hurts their pace-and-space offense.   Last 4 for the superstah:  5.8 points, 4 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 0.8 steals, 2.8 turnovers, 33%/33%/0%.   He hasn't made a free throw this year, btw.

He cracked double-digit assists once in his past 14 games.  Rhetorical question:  Can one still be considered the "best pure point guard" in the league when he's averaging 7 assists and 3 turnovers... or is that label contingent on him racking up empty assists in a offense that caters to his weaknesses?

Mavs fans are already worried.  Forget about offering him the max, several of the Mavs fans think 12 mil a year is an overpay.  The apologists on the forum lean on the fact he's a "great defensive improvement".  Neat... should have just brought in a defensive role player then... preferably one who can hit an open shot once in a while.   Can they be happy that Rondo is their poor man's Bruce Bowen?  Dunno.   Regardless, seems all the Mavs fans acknowledge that the system is a bad fit for Rondo and that the offense improves with Barea out there. 

Functionally, he just doesn't make sense on that team.  They rely on spacing and ball movement.  Rondo NEEDS the ball in his hand to be at all effective.  Rondo is a complete liability when others control it (and unfortunately, Ellis is a better ball-dominating guard).  I've been saying this for years, but this is the first opportunity to see it proven as Dallas tries to incorporate him into their free-flowing offense.  Sure, if you had paid attention to the Celtics you'd notice that Stevens likes that form of offense as well... they simply didn't run it when Rondo played, because Rondo can't do it.  In Dallas, teams are leaving him insultingly wide open.  Sure, he'll respond 1 out of 6 games with an off-character shooting display.  But teams will continue to leave him wide open.     Playoff series are 7 games.  Teams are going to be fine living and dying with Rajon Rondo's shooting. 

Most of the myths are being dispelled.  We still need to see the "Playoff Rondo" myth dispelled, but I have a hunch it's coming.  Unless they give Rondo the keys to the car and relegate Ellis to off-the-ball duty, you're not going to see "Playoff Rondo". 

Of course, I could be wrong.  Maybe he's just learning the tendencies of his teammates and adjusting.  Maybe we've yet to see the best of Rondo.   Going to be interesting to see where his career goes from this.  Toine didn't last very long after his Dallas exposure.  I mean, Monta Ellis couldn't co-exist with a god-like shooter named Steph Curry.  I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to co-exist with an offensive-inept Rajon Rondo.   One thing that could turn around Rondo's season is an injury to Ellis.  If that happens and they replace Ellis with a Kyle Korver type who can hit open shots,  Rondo has a chance take the reigns and get his stats.

Silly.

Antoine Walker helped Miami win a championship.  Might have been interesting to have him here in Boston during the KG-Pierce-Allen years.  WE might have another banner!

I wouldn't be surprised to see him lead another team to a championship. 

I find it awesome that you prefaced your post with "silly" then followed up with one of the most nonsensical things one could say with that Antoine comment.

Also, what team did Rondo lead to a championship? "Lead" being the key word. It's revisionist history to think Rondo was anything other than an along for the ride/role player in 08. If he "lead" us to a title then that definition is so loose it would apply to Posey and Perk as well.

I'll try to take a stab at ThaPreacher's "Silly" remark....

It is "Silly" that DAL got a big win on the road IN MEM just a few days ago...Rondo made some KEY PLAYS down the stretch....and no one started a thread about that game, then.

Because Rondo ACTUALLY played well? OH EM GEEE.

But this thread here will be about 10-20 pages long examining all the angles as to why Rondo was benched last night.

That, My Friend, "IS SILLY"

What did Rondo do against Memphis that made you put "KEY PLAYS" in caps? I'll admit I didn't watch the game, but I'll happily watch the final 4Q in the league pass archives to see what he did.  The box score has him playing only 26 minutes scoring 6 pts on 3-8 shooting, 3 reb, 1 ast, and 2 TO's.

I think it's noteworthy that Carlisle benched him, especially for Devin Harris. A coach plays/trusts his best players down the stretch and apparently Carlisle doesn't.

And....you make this statement after ONE game? That is as generalized a statement as I've seen on here.

Evidently, on CelticsBlog - some posters CAN make generalized statements, but some CAN'T?

But anyway here's the quotes/link from the MEM game:

However, in Monday's road win against the Memphis Grizzlies, Rondo played a critical role in Dallas' 14-4 run to close the game, scoring on a floater and baseline jumper to start the spurt after the Mavs briefly lost the lead.

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/12220179/rajon-rondo-benching-crunch-coach-decision-rick-carlisle-says

Don't count Rajon Rondo out, LOL.....he's been groomed in KG's kitchen.



He's helped DAL tremendously defensively (a fact that's been conveniently ignored around here), and that is why they got him.

Yes, it's one game, but he's only played 16 games. Pretty quick for something like this to happen. However, a bigger tale is that his minutes are only trending downwards. When he first arrived in Dallas he was consistently getting above 30 mpg (7 out of 9 games), but has received mpg in the 20's, and has only been above 30 mpg in 1 out of his last 7 games.

So they got him simply to be a flashy Avery Johnson? That's a lot of money for a defensive player who's FT% will go down in infamy.

It's not 2012 anymore. Some people need to realize that the Rondo that they knew and obviously adored has clearly lost a step. This is exactly what happens to athletically dependent players who never developed their offensive game. The days of Rondo being mentioned in the same breath as other top 5 PG's is so gone it's laughable. He's now fully entrenched in the middle of the pack of PG's, being very kind here, and only those that are honest with themselves can admit it.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well we can just retroactively pretend that Dallas merely expected to get a defensive role player out of the Rondo trade and are perfectly happy with 20-25 minutes from their undersized offensively-inept Shumpert, but I have a feeling they are expecting more than 5 points, a couple rebounds, a few assists, and a few turnovers from their former all-star.  They expected a floor general who would raise the level of play.  There's still time for him to get in a grove, but I'm not sure how we're going to see that unless Dallas changes their offense considerably and moves Monta Ellis.

But for what it's worth, they basically paid "defensive role player" prices for Rondo.  We arguably got a better draft pick by trading our coach.   As Simmons said, it's telling that Mozgov fetched a better package:

Yes, we live in a world in which (a) Mozgov just fetched a better trade haul than Rondo, and (b) it wasn?t totally crazy. (In a related story, if Timofey Mozgov is the answer, then I don?t want to know the question.) A willing suitor like Sacramento couldn?t risk paying full price for Rondo just to watch him flee to New York or L.A. in four months. (That?s why the Celtics were stuck with Dallas?s pupu platter offer of three role players, a giant cap exception and a protected first-rounder for an under-30 impact guy who went toe-to-toe with LeBron and Wade in the 2012 East finals.) And Cleveland COULD risk overpaying for the eminently forgettable Mozgov because GM LeBron wanted to mortgage the future for a rim protector, no matter how mediocre that rim protector actually was.

Well, whatever you think his story is, it is still being written.

We can gloat, speculate, etc - all day long as to the what/when/where/hows, for DAL this season and beyond.

The haters will continue to puff their chests out and conveniently ignore the facts, and also cherry pick stats and metrics to try to support their claims.

If DAL goes far, the Haters will say it's NOT because of Rondo. TBH - it's NOT because of Rondo (or anyone else, for that matter) - but in a TEAM concept you need pieces to make it work.

Subconsciously there are some here who wanted DAL to go on a 20 game losing streak after the trade...they haven't and won't.

And as always around here - if CP3 (or Westbrook or whomever) don't win it all then it'll be conveniently ignored - or excuses made for their failure.

Some things never change.

All I know is that THIS starting five NEVER lost a series:



And for that, I'm glad.

[inverselock]

Code: [Select]

    Player  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA   FT% ORB DRB  TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
Rajon Rondo 16 16 30.6 4.8 11.8 .402 0.6 1.6 .385 4.1 10.2 .405 0.3 1.1  .235 1.4 3.6  5.1 7.1 1.6 0.1 2.9 3.4 10.4
Solid.   No Allstar or Hof.