Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 596409 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2610 on: August 26, 2015, 10:23:11 AM »

Offline JSD

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And you don't know that there was not another conversation going on about the tickets which is what their explanation was.  I agree it's suspicious looking at that text message alone, but when considering all things about the case and the fact Wells had thousands of texts to pick and choose from, I don't find it convincing.  Jastremski and McNally did not know what they were going to be questioned about by Wells who had them for 12 hours combined and they never mixed up their story.  And the fact that there's a third guy who said that he made that comment, that's just not enough to be convinced that they were lying and covering up a ball tampering scheme.

Then why aren't McNally / Jastremski / the Patriots saying "Hey, this was all taken out of context.  There were five intervening texts in between the ones Wells quoted, and here's what they said"?

If there were additional texts that make the conversation make sense, why haven't we seen them from anybody?
Possibly more "Brady is a __" stuff. Seems that stuff was too rampant to give everyone those texts. I wish I could see those. It would be funny. Also makes Brady more typical demanding or micro-manage boss type. New England fans would seriously be disappointed in the person if he rides the team's staff hard.

This all went down after a game where the balls were found to be at 16 psig.  Brady probably did get in some people's kitchen over that.  16 psig vs. 12.5 psig is enough to affect his throwing, just like if the balls were at 9 instead of 12.5.  Why is this surprising to anyone, fan of Brady or otherwise?  As I understand it, he got the rules printed out, told these guys they had to push back on the Refs if they tried to give them over inflated balls and probably in general told them "don't let this happen again" in a not so nice tone.

McNally then wrote the disparaging texts about Brady.  This is also probably when he referred to himself as the deflator meaning he had to deflate the balls from 16 psig to 12.5 psig.  Brady did not tell him to deflate the balls though.  Brady said show the refs the rules and make sure they don't over inflate the balls.

Clearly, the most incriminating "evidence" in all of this the text reference to himself as deflator.  I can't honestly offer a reasonable explanation for what this really was supposed to mean based on what I have seen/read.  But a penalty based on this when all other evidence goes in the other direction (including and most importantly the actual measurements of the balls on the day in question)?

I continue to be dumbfound that anyone can still think there was some big conspiracy here (or even a small conspiracy)

I can understand why the NFL would want to look into this based on the deflator text and the video of McNally going into the bathroom.  But once they investigated this, they should have been impartial enough to say "nothing here".  But no, the NFL had already made up its mind, made premature statements, orchestrated leaks and otherwise made it so this whole thing became about saving face.  This is just so clear now and becoming more clear with every new release of information.

McNally first called himself the deflator in May of 2014.

The PSI problem and rule printout occurred in October of 2014.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2611 on: August 26, 2015, 10:51:47 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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This thing is so beyond the "did they/didn't they deflate" aspect of things at this point.  IMO, it's flimsy at best.  Predictably you're seeing pro-Pats people saying No & those who aren't fans said Yes.  Pretty expected.

The focus really should be on the NFL and their handling of these "crisis'" that pop up.  Seemingly, one case after another (Bountygate, Starcaps, Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, etc..) have been botched by this league office.  No consistencies on punishments, reactive rather than proactive handling of situations, PR minded rulings, a faulty system where the commissioner is jury, judge, executioner. Something needs to be done to fix the system because after Deflategate, you can be sure that another crisis will pop up that Goodell & Co. will manage to botch. 

Deflategate should've ended with a fine and that being the end of it.  Not this stupid circus.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2612 on: August 26, 2015, 12:28:22 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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And you don't know that there was not another conversation going on about the tickets which is what their explanation was.  I agree it's suspicious looking at that text message alone, but when considering all things about the case and the fact Wells had thousands of texts to pick and choose from, I don't find it convincing.  Jastremski and McNally did not know what they were going to be questioned about by Wells who had them for 12 hours combined and they never mixed up their story.  And the fact that there's a third guy who said that he made that comment, that's just not enough to be convinced that they were lying and covering up a ball tampering scheme.

Then why aren't McNally / Jastremski / the Patriots saying "Hey, this was all taken out of context.  There were five intervening texts in between the ones Wells quoted, and here's what they said"?

If there were additional texts that make the conversation make sense, why haven't we seen them from anybody?
Possibly more "Brady is a __" stuff. Seems that stuff was too rampant to give everyone those texts. I wish I could see those. It would be funny. Also makes Brady more typical demanding or micro-manage boss type. New England fans would seriously be disappointed in the person if he rides the team's staff hard.

This all went down after a game where the balls were found to be at 16 psig.  Brady probably did get in some people's kitchen over that.  16 psig vs. 12.5 psig is enough to affect his throwing, just like if the balls were at 9 instead of 12.5.  Why is this surprising to anyone, fan of Brady or otherwise?  As I understand it, he got the rules printed out, told these guys they had to push back on the Refs if they tried to give them over inflated balls and probably in general told them "don't let this happen again" in a not so nice tone.

McNally then wrote the disparaging texts about Brady.  This is also probably when he referred to himself as the deflator meaning he had to deflate the balls from 16 psig to 12.5 psig.  Brady did not tell him to deflate the balls though.  Brady said show the refs the rules and make sure they don't over inflate the balls.

Clearly, the most incriminating "evidence" in all of this the text reference to himself as deflator.  I can't honestly offer a reasonable explanation for what this really was supposed to mean based on what I have seen/read.  But a penalty based on this when all other evidence goes in the other direction (including and most importantly the actual measurements of the balls on the day in question)?

I continue to be dumbfound that anyone can still think there was some big conspiracy here (or even a small conspiracy)

I can understand why the NFL would want to look into this based on the deflator text and the video of McNally going into the bathroom.  But once they investigated this, they should have been impartial enough to say "nothing here".  But no, the NFL had already made up its mind, made premature statements, orchestrated leaks and otherwise made it so this whole thing became about saving face.  This is just so clear now and becoming more clear with every new release of information.

McNally first called himself the deflator in May of 2014.

The PSI problem and rule printout occurred in October of 2014.

thanks for clarifying.  This makes the comment even less relevant to the issue at hand in my opinion.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2613 on: August 26, 2015, 12:39:51 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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This thing is so beyond the "did they/didn't they deflate" aspect of things at this point.  IMO, it's flimsy at best.  Predictably you're seeing pro-Pats people saying No & those who aren't fans said Yes.  Pretty expected.

The focus really should be on the NFL and their handling of these "crisis'" that pop up.  Seemingly, one case after another (Bountygate, Starcaps, Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, etc..) have been botched by this league office.  No consistencies on punishments, reactive rather than proactive handling of situations, PR minded rulings, a faulty system where the commissioner is jury, judge, executioner. Something needs to be done to fix the system because after Deflategate, you can be sure that another crisis will pop up that Goodell & Co. will manage to botch. 

Deflategate should've ended with a fine and that being the end of it.  Not this stupid circus.
The NFL is trying hard to show that this incident violates the "integrity of the game", but stickum on the gloves and silicone on the jersey simply constitute "competitive advantage". It's just dumb beyond belief.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2614 on: August 26, 2015, 12:41:57 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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This thing is so beyond the "did they/didn't they deflate" aspect of things at this point.  IMO, it's flimsy at best.  Predictably you're seeing pro-Pats people saying No & those who aren't fans said Yes.  Pretty expected.

The focus really should be on the NFL and their handling of these "crisis'" that pop up.  Seemingly, one case after another (Bountygate, Starcaps, Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, etc..) have been botched by this league office.  No consistencies on punishments, reactive rather than proactive handling of situations, PR minded rulings, a faulty system where the commissioner is jury, judge, executioner. Something needs to be done to fix the system because after Deflategate, you can be sure that another crisis will pop up that Goodell & Co. will manage to botch. 

Deflategate should've ended with a fine and that being the end of it.  Not this stupid circus.
The NFL is trying hard to show that this incident violates the "integrity of the game", but stickum on the gloves and silicone on the jersey simply constitute "competitive advantage". It's just dumb beyond belief.

And "heating" of the balls on the sideline results in a fine yet deflation that may or may not have been caused by mother nature (amazing the NFL has been around for 90 something years & didn't know impact of weather on balls) results in a mulit-million investigation and suspension.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2615 on: August 26, 2015, 12:51:40 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Solid piece by Stephanie Stradley in the Houston Chronicle

Quote

Why the Deflategate case matters
A lawyer explains: If the NFL gets its way, then no player or team is safe


By Stephanie Stradley August 25, 2015
 

 Tom Brady has his lawyers. The NFL has theirs. But who represents what's good for football? Photo: Mary Altaffer, Associated Press Photo: Mary Altaffer, Associated Press Tom Brady has his lawyers. The NFL has theirs. But who represents what's good for football?
How did a dispute over NFL football ball tampering end up in a United States federal court?

Judge Richard Berman is likely wondering the same thing. "I became a federal court judge for this??!?"


He has done just about everything to encourage the NFL and Tom Brady to work on a settlement before the season starts.

How?

He fast-tracked the case ahead of more important matters. He repeatedly ordered them to engage in settlement talks. Reportedly, the court asked the NFL to involve Giants owner John Mara to help move talks forward.

He has done everything to encourage settlement short of hiring an airplane banner: SETTLE THIS CASE BECAUSE IT IS DUMB.

Judge Berman did not allow the parties to seal confidential documents. He knows fans can help be a settlement pressure point too, by exposing embarrassing things.

Fans (and team owners) sensibly have no time, inclination or expertise to look through thousands of pages of documents.

As the court filings show, however, all fanbases should be concerned about league discipline process. Arbitrary process issues aren't as flashy as the details of Brady's emails and his phone habits, but they are much more important to the actual integrity of the NFL.

GRAY MATTERS

 Dr. Red Duke, on the Life Flight Helipad at Memorial Hermann - Texas Medical Center on June 2, 2008.  © 2008 Robert Seale.

Robert Seale Photography
www.robertseale.com
832-654-9572 Red Duke, my medical hero Serena Williams celebra tras ganar un punto ante Heather Watson en el partido por la tercera ronda del torneo de Wimbledon, el viernes 3 de julio de 2015. (AP Foto/Kirsty Wigglesworth) Tennis, in all its brutal glory Deflategate 
 
 Over/under on how many games Tom Brady will miss by suspension:  1.5 Why the Deflategate case matters Author Dayna Steele and her mother, Fran Nicholson. Mom's Alzheimer's. Facebook. And a big glass of wine. Banda El Recodo Not Mexican enough?
The NFL has its lawyers. Brady has his. Think of me as your lawyer for what is actually good for fans and the game.

In the last two public hearings, Judge Berman hammered the NFL side of the case, raising issues that should be important to fans, things like:

• Can commissioner Roger Goodell do anything he wants to any player if he merely declares, "It goes to the integrity of the game"?

• How did Goodell pick a four-game suspension versus a fine versus anything other punishment he could pull out of a hat?

• What happens to the next player who is accused of being "generally aware" of a NFL rule violation?

• If Tom Brady's electronic communications were important to a ball deflation conspiracy, why didn't the NFL give notice to Brady and his lawyers of how important it was to its decision?

• Did NFL investigator Ted Wells even know that a miniscule fine schedule existed for equipment violations?

• Why is this even a DeflateGate? There is no evidence in the record that Brady liked playing with footballs below the pressures allowed in the rules. How can the NFL make an inference that because there's evidence Tom Brady liked 12.5-13 psi balls that he truly in his heart wanted them less than that?

• Does it matter at all that the alleged ball deflation scheme didn't seem to affect competitive balance in the Colts-Patriots game?

• If the NFL were so confident in the "independence" of its report, why didn't it allow NFL Senior VP, General Counsel and named co-author Jeff Pash to testify about any alterations he may have made to the document?

• Wells said Brady was "generally aware" of a scheme by others to deflate footballs and "fully cooperated" except for not wanting to provide the contents of his private electronics due to advice of counsel. Goodell ruled that the evidence fully supported his findings that Brady participated in a "tampering scheme" and "willfully obstructed" the investigation. So which is it?

• And why did Wells and Goodell in their findings ignore much of the basic direct evidence that was favorable to Brady?

So what was the robotic NFL legal answer to Judge Berman's concerns?

Goodell has full discretion to decide what the facts and discipline are to uphold the integrity of the game. Issues of notice, consistency, fairness, independence, process are irrelevant.

The NFL says the Collective Bargaining Agreement allows Goodell to do whatever he wants as long as he goes through the pageantry of arbitration. The NFL Players Association says the NFL isn't really following the CBA and NFL rules as written and informed by labor law.

Yes, this is an oversimplification, but, as your fan lawyer, this is what you need to know about the NFL's legal argument:

If the NFL is right, every single player and team is at risk.

If there is no reasonable way for a team or player to prove his innocence once the process starts...

If the violation can be a pet issue the league never cared about before...

If giving notice of what the rule you violated and potential punishment isn't important...

If something can turn into a ---Gate based on an anonymous source with unknown motives...

Then no team, and no player, is safe from harm to reputation and severe penalties.

If Judge Berman makes a ruling, he knows this is a lose-lose-lose for everyone. He'd have to bother with writing an unassailable opinion on something this ridiculous. The losing party would appeal. The uncertain legal process would drag out for years.

As for fans? Nobody became a sports fan to watch Law & Order: NFL.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2616 on: August 26, 2015, 12:58:36 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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And "heating" of the balls on the sideline results in a fine yet deflation that may or may not have been caused by mother nature (amazing the NFL has been around for 90 something years & didn't know impact of weather on balls) results in a mulit-million investigation and suspension.
Well, no-one ever gave a squat. I'm guessing the operating assumption was that given that the refs handle the ball on each snap, it should be immediately obvious to them when a ball is unfit for play. Which is perfectly reasonable.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2617 on: August 26, 2015, 12:59:35 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Solid piece by Stephanie Stradley in the Houston Chronicle
Stradley has been on top of this from the beginning. She wrote a handful of things, all of them worth the read.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2618 on: August 31, 2015, 12:36:11 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2015/08/judge_no_settlement_on_deflategate_ruling_coming_soon

Quote
Judge Richard M. Berman announced this morning that there will be no settlement between Tom Brady and the NFL in regards to "Deflategate."

Berman said he will rule by the Sept. 4 deadline, most likely tomorrow or Wednesday.

"We did not reach settlement … the parties tried quite hard," said Berman. "In some cases (settlement) doesn't happen. This is one of those cases."



Worth noting that no matter who loses there will be an appeal.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2619 on: August 31, 2015, 12:43:27 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2015/08/judge_no_settlement_on_deflategate_ruling_coming_soon

Quote
Judge Richard M. Berman announced this morning that there will be no settlement between Tom Brady and the NFL in regards to "Deflategate."

Berman said he will rule by the Sept. 4 deadline, most likely tomorrow or Wednesday.

"We did not reach settlement … the parties tried quite hard," said Berman. "In some cases (settlement) doesn't happen. This is one of those cases."



Worth noting that no matter who loses there will be an appeal.

The good news for the Pats is that if Brady wins, the suspension gets vacated, even if the NFL appeals.  If Brady loses, Brady tries to get an injunction and the appeal doesn't get heard until the season is already over.

So, even if the suspension is upheld, Brady might not serve it until next year.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2620 on: August 31, 2015, 01:00:24 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2015/08/judge_no_settlement_on_deflategate_ruling_coming_soon

Quote
Judge Richard M. Berman announced this morning that there will be no settlement between Tom Brady and the NFL in regards to "Deflategate."

Berman said he will rule by the Sept. 4 deadline, most likely tomorrow or Wednesday.

"We did not reach settlement … the parties tried quite hard," said Berman. "In some cases (settlement) doesn't happen. This is one of those cases."



Worth noting that no matter who loses there will be an appeal.

The good news for the Pats is that if Brady wins, the suspension gets vacated, even if the NFL appeals.  If Brady loses, Brady tries to get an injunction and the appeal doesn't get heard until the season is already over.

So, even if the suspension is upheld, Brady might not serve it until next year.

dream scenario, Brady doesn't get suspended but NFL appeals and wins, and he gets suspended next season

then we win 2015-2016 super bowl to repeat and Brady retires

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2621 on: August 31, 2015, 01:18:41 PM »

Offline Jon

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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2015/08/judge_no_settlement_on_deflategate_ruling_coming_soon

Quote
Judge Richard M. Berman announced this morning that there will be no settlement between Tom Brady and the NFL in regards to "Deflategate."

Berman said he will rule by the Sept. 4 deadline, most likely tomorrow or Wednesday.

"We did not reach settlement … the parties tried quite hard," said Berman. "In some cases (settlement) doesn't happen. This is one of those cases."



Worth noting that no matter who loses there will be an appeal.

The good news for the Pats is that if Brady wins, the suspension gets vacated, even if the NFL appeals.  If Brady loses, Brady tries to get an injunction and the appeal doesn't get heard until the season is already over.

So, even if the suspension is upheld, Brady might not serve it until next year.

dream scenario, Brady doesn't get suspended but NFL appeals and wins, and he gets suspended next season

then we win 2015-2016 super bowl to repeat and Brady retires

Brady isn't retiring. He wants to play 7 more years.

Goodell, on the other hand, may not be around by 2016.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2622 on: August 31, 2015, 02:43:45 PM »

Offline danglertx

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First off, you can't waive negligence to whomever said that.

Of course you can.  Are you saying that waivers / limitations of liability for negligence are per se unenforceable?  That is just a misstatement of the law.  There are probably tens of thousands of citations to this proposition, but we'll go with this cite from the Volokh Conspiracy:

Quote
The California Supreme Court issued an interesting decision this week on the enforceability of liability waivers in standard form contracts. At issue in City of Santa Barbara v. Superior Court, -- Cal.Rptr.3d -- (2007 WL 2027806), was a release from liability for "any negligent act" signed by a parent as part of an enrollment contract that allowed her daughter to participate in a camp for disabled children run by the city of Santa Barbara. The court ruled, 6-1, that the contract was enforceable as to allegations of ordinary negligence, but not gross negligence. This wasn't surprising; it is standard hornbook law that such waivers in the context of recreational activities are enforceable as to ordinary negligence but not as to gross negligence, although a few jurisdictions won't even enforce waivers for ordinary negligence. But it is interesting that, according to the court, it had never actually addressed this issue (although for decades Witkin on California Law has claimed that the majority rule applies in the Golden State).

Quote
Some States may have refined the definition of negligence to different versions and are calling the old negligence gross negligence but that is first year law school.  It is the nature of negligence.

I was fairly attentive in law school, and overall I enjoyed the experience, but I never was taught this concept.  I would like to think that that's because it's not true.

Oftentimes (but not in every jurisdiction) you can't waive gross negligence.  You can't waive legal malpractice or medical malpractice.  However, general, ordinary negligence?  That's waiveable in a contract, so long as the waiver is clear, knowing, and voluntary.

Quote
You need evidence to contradict direct testimony that outweighs it.  To say three people are lying without actual proof is pathetic work by Wells

There is a lot of nuance here.  You're not arguing that a finder of fact has to accept all testimony as true unless it's rebutted, are you?  Because that's obviously not the case.

Theoretically, there needs to be some evidence other than the fact that you know a suspect is lying based upon your assessment of his credibility.  However, that evidence of guilt doesn't have to directly contradict the testimony you have rejected as non-credible.  For instance, in the presence instance, Wells can find guilt is more likely than not based simply on his assessment of credibility and the fact that several footballs didn't conform to the ideal gas law, even if it is assumed that the gauge most favorable to the Patriots was used. 

If there's a minimal level of evidence showing deflation of the balls, and then the finder of fact assesses the key witnesses to be non-credible, that's enough to sustain a civil level of proof.  Piggy-backing on that with contradictory / non-credible testimony, lack of cooperation, etc. is probably enough for a finder of fact to reasonably find guilt linking Brady.

A lot is made about this being an arbitration award, but in terms of the evidence, I can't imagine any appellate court in the country would reverse the verdict for sufficiency of evidence if a judge / jury found the Patriots civilly guilty. 

To me, the real issues are relate to procedure and punishment.  I think it's crystal clear that a reasonable fact-finder could have found guilt here.

On the negligence, that is for recreational activities, particularly sports and then it doesn't include gross negligence.  But that really doesn't even have anything to do with this case and isn't worth getting side tracked over.  I'll admit, in certain very specific instances negligence can be waived.  I apologize for that error.

My point on the testimony is that if three people are cross examined, they are the only direct witnesses, and they all say the same thing, you not believing them isn't more than half of the evidence.  It is no evidence.  You have to have some evidence to refute it no?   It can't just be I don't believe you so that is weighted more than your three direct evidence testimony.  That is ludicrous. 

There is NO unconverted evidence at all on the prosecution side.  The only direct evidence the NFL has is very weak scientific evidence that Wells himself discounts as unreliable.   Everything is Wells saying, "this text means this and this text means that," like he wrote them.  That isn't evidence, it is opinion.  If you really look at what he is saying it doesn't even make sense.

He says McNally calling himself the "deflator" in May 2014 shows guilt in Jan 2015.  But then he gives his opinion that this all started after Brady got mad in the NY Jets game about the balls being 16lbs in October of 2014.  Is McNally a freaking time traveler?  Nowhere does Wells give any "evidence" of a scheme going on for years.  Never is it mentioned that this has been a pattern.  If it had been going on that long, why were the balls in NY an issue?  Why did Brady have to drag out the rule book?  Wells specifically says that McNally taking the balls was unusual and that no referees had seen that before.  So when was McNally sneaking the balls away to deflate them back in 2013/14? 

To say that is more powerful than three people's testimony, and at least Brady's sworn testimony (i'm not sure the other guys testimony was sworn) is very disingenuous.  It makes a mockery of testimony if Wells and Goodell can simply say, "I don't believe these people, I'll go with what I believe."  If you have a mountain of evidence on your side, sure you can say it outweighs three people's testimony, but they basically have nothing, even after extensive interviews.  If a skilled lawyer like Wells can't trip up two yahoos like Jastremski and McNally after several hours of questioning, either Wells stinks at his job or maybe they were telling the truth.




Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2623 on: August 31, 2015, 04:01:20 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Quote
Gary Myers
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NFL never made formal settlement offer, but indicated willing to cut suspension to 3 games if Brady admitted DeflateGate guilt. No deal.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 04:08:27 PM by Donoghus »


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2624 on: August 31, 2015, 04:05:47 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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Quote
Gary Myers
?@garymyersNYDN
NFL never made formal settlement offer, but indicated willing to cut suspension to 3 games if Brady admitted DeflateGate guilt. No deal.[/quote}

no compromise! keep pushing!