Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 596283 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2025 on: August 04, 2015, 01:15:37 PM »

Offline BballTim

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After apparently not communicating much (if at all) from October through the afc championship game, Brady spoke to Jastremski 8 times on the phone for a total of almost an hour in the three days following the afc title game, texted him 15 times and met with him in person. When asked about all the communications, Brady couldn't recall any specifics from the conversations and claimed they were mainly about ball preparation for the super bowl.

  It's hard to come to any conclusion other than Brady being uncooperative and less than forthright in his answers after reading that.
Well, Walt Anderson thought he used the logo gauge, but it was hard to come to any conclusion other than he "may have misremembered". Welcome to the land of "independent" NFL investigations.

  Sure, the nfl investigation was something of a joke, and the PSI evidence was far from conclusive. The most compelling evidence against the Patriots came from their communications and behavior.

  Brady and a team employee that he had little to no contact with suddenly (immediately after the investigation began) had 8 phone calls totaling an hour in time, texted back and forth and met in person, all in the space of 3 days. Brady doesn't have a believable explanation for the flurry of activity and can't remember any of the details of the conversations. That looks much worse than any evidence the nfl got from measuring footballs.

So in otherwords.  You accuse somebody of stealing your car with the help of two other people and call the police.  They freak out and talk to eachother because they are being accused of something ridiculous.  You then realize you left your car in the garage the whole time, but they are guilty because they talked about it.

  More like you heard your 15 year old son and a friend have been joyriding in cars, your keys aren't where you think you left them and you  think your odometer has more miles on it than it should. You mention it to your son, who then has a flurry of conversations with his friend, then later denies remembering what they talked about beyond what the weather was like on one of the days they talked.
False, in this case, the odometer and keys are exactly where you would expect.

  That's the response of your spouse, who believes that not having proof that their son did something wrong is the same as having proof that they didn't.

Nope, you are off base.  You lack evidence that anything wrong occurred, let alone who was responsible. 

Infact I would say the science proves the patriots did nothing wrong, and the nfl has done nothing to suggest that anything wrong occured

  The science doesn't prove the Pats were guilty and it doesn't prove that they were guilty. That's fairly obvious.

Ironic

  I suppose. I'm not going to check old texts to see what I posted here, but I'd be willing to bet that one of my first comments on this matter was something along the lines of "the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure". Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2026 on: August 04, 2015, 01:17:22 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Except Baltimore is 2-2 against New England in their last 4 including last years very close game and has had more success against the Pats in the postseason than any other team in the Harbaugh/Flacco era.  It doesn't quite have the same effect when a team that is actually winning games registers a complaint or two.

If you don't think the Ravens are salty from losing to the Pats in the AFC Championship game a few years ago and again this year in the divisional round, despite the other games they won, I think you're being silly.


Of course the Ravens would love to see the Pats get taken down a peg and even hurt from a competitive standpoint.


Nobody would ever bother to make a big deal out of a team like the Jaguars doing something like this.  But if it's the team that beats you every time you face them, or even just a team that has played you to a draw and stood in your way of the Super Bowl multiple times, of course you would.
If a team is breaking the rules, they get reported and there are consequences.  The fact that it was in the playoffs and involved a team that has a history of skirting the line (if not out right crossing it i.e. spygate), certainly plays into it.  If this was the Jaguars in the AFC Championship and their QB didn't cooperate then yeah, he gets suspended as well.  Probably doesn't have quite the same media attention because Jacksonville doesn't have the history of New England, but there would be suspensions and fines.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2027 on: August 04, 2015, 01:18:35 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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  I'd guess that depends on whether their standards for guilt are more like criminal or civil court.

It's not a matter of the standard of guilt, it's a matter of the authority they have to punish players.

The players are members of a union, and part of their collective bargaining agreement with the league provides for arbitration of disputes over discipline handed down by the league.

Arbitration law and industry custom provide that in order for a member of a union to be bound by a punishment, she must have advance notice of the specific policies she is required to follow and the penalties for violation of those policies.

What that means is that the NFL is not allowed to invoke a vague "conduct detrimental to the league" policy when pointing to what a punishment is based on, nor can they make up a punishment on the spot to fit the specific circumstances of the alleged misconduct.  It all must be provided for in the language of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.  Otherwise, the NFL has not effectively bargained for the power it seeks to use in punishing the employee.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2028 on: August 04, 2015, 01:21:34 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2029 on: August 04, 2015, 01:33:51 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  I'd guess that depends on whether their standards for guilt are more like criminal or civil court.

It's not a matter of the standard of guilt, it's a matter of the authority they have to punish players.

The players are members of a union, and part of their collective bargaining agreement with the league provides for arbitration of disputes over discipline handed down by the league.

Arbitration law and industry custom provide that in order for a member of a union to be bound by a punishment, she must have advance notice of the specific policies she is required to follow and the penalties for violation of those policies.

What that means is that the NFL is not allowed to invoke a vague "conduct detrimental to the league" policy when pointing to what a punishment is based on, nor can they make up a punishment on the spot to fit the specific circumstances of the alleged misconduct.  It all must be provided for in the language of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.  Otherwise, the NFL has not effectively bargained for the power it seeks to use in punishing the employee.

  I seriously doubt that the nfl is powerless to punish players if they're seen to be involved in a scheme to break the rules. And the nfl has imposed punishment in the past for not cooperating with an investigation, so I'm not sure that's beyond their power either.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2030 on: August 04, 2015, 01:35:30 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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  More like you heard your 15 year old son and a friend have been joyriding in cars, your keys aren't where you think you left them and you  think your odometer has more miles on it than it should. You mention it to your son, who then has a flurry of conversations with his friend, then later denies remembering what they talked about beyond what the weather was like on one of the days they talked.


Would be a fine analogy if the NFL had the broad authority to punish players the way parents can punish their children.  Mere suspicion of wrongdoing based on seemingly guilty behavior is sufficient in that situation.

Many of the responses I've seen to this whole controversy suggest that a good number of NFL fans think the NFL does have that authority, or at least that it should.

Luckily for Brady, that is not the case.

This is illustrative of how the NFL would like to be perceived, and how they go out of their way to do so. That there are many fans who endorse it speaks to a greater set of endemic beliefs that the league reinforces as a whole.

The problem with that position (the league's position) is that as the internet has become more pervasive the absurdity of the stance becomes increasingly obvious. If TMZ doesn't exist then no one sees the Ray Rice tape and, by extension, Brady gets the two game deal.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2031 on: August 04, 2015, 01:41:54 PM »

Offline BballTim

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2032 on: August 04, 2015, 01:48:14 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2033 on: August 04, 2015, 01:51:09 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

We can agree on this, then.  I'll say again, I think the Pats deserve a fine, and so does Brady.  Should have been a fine from the beginning and then let's move on.

Instead, we have a circus.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2034 on: August 04, 2015, 01:53:45 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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  I seriously doubt that the nfl is powerless to punish players if they're seen to be involved in a scheme to break the rules. And the nfl has imposed punishment in the past for not cooperating with an investigation, so I'm not sure that's beyond their power either.

The NFL has imposed a lot of penalties in recent years.  Many of them, when challenged in arbitration or in court, get overturned.  The NFL likes to exceed its authority when it comes to discipline, and as D.o.s. points out, the public tends to think they have the right to do so, which is why they keep doing it.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2035 on: August 04, 2015, 02:04:32 PM »

Offline colincb

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Context is very important and it is clear that the NFL is going out of their way to create the worst possible context for all of these leaks.  Why??

Only thing I can really come up with is that Goodell was getting absolutely killed for the Ray Rice thing in the media & the public perception of him was at rock bottom.

What better way to try & put him back in a positive spotlight than an overblown & contrived controversy involving a Super Bowl participant (& organization already very polarizing in a national context) and one of the league's poster children (Brady)?  Lay down the hammer and show "Strong Roger".

I said it back in January; if this involved the Jacksonville Jaguars, none of this happens and a 25K fine or something pretty much flies under the radar.

TP Motive. Check.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2036 on: August 04, 2015, 02:18:07 PM »

Offline BballTim

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2037 on: August 04, 2015, 02:20:49 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

We can agree on this, then.  I'll say again, I think the Pats deserve a fine, and so does Brady.  Should have been a fine from the beginning and then let's move on.

Instead, we have a circus.

  I think that the circus is at least somewhat self inflicted on the Pat's side though.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2038 on: August 04, 2015, 02:24:13 PM »

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2039 on: August 04, 2015, 02:25:51 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

This is the danger of the mortensen reports.  Headlines stick longer than facts.  Its sad but is the uphill battle patriots fans will be fighting for a long time to come
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