Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 594018 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1905 on: July 31, 2015, 05:26:39 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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To underscore here -- the NFL has no right or power to do those things because they failed to bargain for that power in the most recent CBA.  If the NFL wants to be able to compel players to turn over evidence and punish them for failure to comply with such requests, they need to bargain for it.

For not having power, it seems they made an example of Brady pretty much at will.   I know Kraft is mad, but face it, a lot of owners probably love watching him squirm, and I see them backing Goodell who serves at all the owners behest.   The Pats are generally seen as cheaters who got away with it, recall the play stealing scandal perhaps?   I live well outside of Boston and people here in Cincinnati are loving it and posting stuff on facebook about how great it was Brady got caught, being a C's fan I kind of like the Pats, I defintely do not like the Bungles (Bengals).

But I still the NFL as a whole as a lot more powerful than you.   They are not bound by law.   They can do whatever they want as long as the owners stick together.

What the NFL can do is a function of what the players are willing to call them out on by utilizing the legal avenues Brady is using right now.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1906 on: July 31, 2015, 05:26:59 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Do people still think Brady was innocent in this whole thing or that nothing ever happened?

The only thing that should be contested is the penalty being too harsh but Brady does deserve some kind of penalty.

I think he's innocent.  Do you think he conspired with a part time, minimum wage employee on a risky scheme to remove 3 to 4 tenths of a psi which is only possible if the ref forgot which gauge he used to measure over 50 footballs only a couple hours after measuring them?  Or do you believe a league which has been caught lying about the incident?

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1907 on: July 31, 2015, 05:27:12 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Do people still think Brady was innocent in this whole thing or that nothing ever happened?

The only thing that should be contested is the penalty being too harsh but Brady does deserve some kind of penalty.

A fine.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1908 on: July 31, 2015, 05:33:55 PM »

Offline colincb

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To underscore here -- the NFL has no right or power to do those things because they failed to bargain for that power in the most recent CBA.  If the NFL wants to be able to compel players to turn over evidence and punish them for failure to comply with such requests, they need to bargain for it.

For not having power, it seems they made an example of Brady pretty much at will.   I know Kraft is mad, but face it, a lot of owners probably love watching him squirm, and I see them backing Goodell who serves at all the owners behest.   The Pats are generally seen as cheaters who got away with it, recall the play stealing scandal perhaps?   I live well outside of Boston and people here in Cincinnati are loving it and posting stuff on facebook about how great it was Brady got caught, being a C's fan I kind of like the Pats, I defintely do not like the Bungles (Bengals).

But I still the NFL as a whole as a lot more powerful than you.   They are not bound by law.   They can do whatever they want as long as the owners stick together.

Except when in court.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1909 on: July 31, 2015, 06:01:16 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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  You're saying that the league never said anything about Brady being uncooperative or less than forthright when they originally suspended him? That's not what I recall.


"With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence."



The NFL release cites as their authority for the punishment the "Integrity of the Game Policy" which is applied to teams, not to players, and is not a part of the CBA that governs the relationship between the league and the players.

There is no punishment under the CBA for "failure to cooperate fully and candidly."  Further, there's no precedent at all for punishing lack of cooperation with a suspension.  Favre got a fine.


Anyway, based on everything that has been released, it sounds like the alleged "failure to cooperate" is a fabrication, since Tom Brady actually did produce vast amounts of relevant electronic evidence.  He just didn't produce the evidence they were hoping to find that would clearly incriminate Brady and also implicate higher up members of the organization.

It really sounds like the NFL was operating from the assumption that the Patriots, and Brady specifically, were guilty, which means that "You didn't produce evidence that would clearly show your guilt or admit you cheated" becomes "You didn't cooperate with our investigation and your statements were not credible."
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1910 on: July 31, 2015, 06:33:39 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  You're saying that the league never said anything about Brady being uncooperative or less than forthright when they originally suspended him? That's not what I recall.


"With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence."



The NFL release cites as their authority for the punishment the "Integrity of the Game Policy" which is applied to teams, not to players, and is not a part of the CBA that governs the relationship between the league and the players.

There is no punishment under the CBA for "failure to cooperate fully and candidly."  Further, there's no precedent at all for punishing lack of cooperation with a suspension.  Favre got a fine.

  A fine is a punishment though, isn't it? You're claiming the nfl doesn't have the right to punish Brady for not cooperating with the investigation. Apparently they've been able to do so in the past. And from the few seconds I spent looking at the union's appeal, they seem to be complaining that the league suspended Brady when the only punishment for not cooperating in the past has been a fine.

Anyway, based on everything that has been released, it sounds like the alleged "failure to cooperate" is a fabrication, since Tom Brady actually did produce vast amounts of relevant electronic evidence.  He just didn't produce the evidence they were hoping to find that would clearly incriminate Brady and also implicate higher up members of the organization.

It really sounds like the NFL was operating from the assumption that the Patriots, and Brady specifically, were guilty, which means that "You didn't produce evidence that would clearly show your guilt or admit you cheated" becomes "You didn't cooperate with our investigation and your statements were not credible."

  It sounds like what Brady did was provide the investigation with vast amounts of useless information in order to be able to claim that he provided them with vast amounts of relevant information.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1911 on: July 31, 2015, 07:38:38 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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  You're saying that the league never said anything about Brady being uncooperative or less than forthright when they originally suspended him? That's not what I recall.


"With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence."



The NFL release cites as their authority for the punishment the "Integrity of the Game Policy" which is applied to teams, not to players, and is not a part of the CBA that governs the relationship between the league and the players.

There is no punishment under the CBA for "failure to cooperate fully and candidly."  Further, there's no precedent at all for punishing lack of cooperation with a suspension.  Favre got a fine.

  A fine is a punishment though, isn't it? You're claiming the nfl doesn't have the right to punish Brady for not cooperating with the investigation. Apparently they've been able to do so in the past. And from the few seconds I spent looking at the union's appeal, they seem to be complaining that the league suspended Brady when the only punishment for not cooperating in the past has been a fine.

Anyway, based on everything that has been released, it sounds like the alleged "failure to cooperate" is a fabrication, since Tom Brady actually did produce vast amounts of relevant electronic evidence.  He just didn't produce the evidence they were hoping to find that would clearly incriminate Brady and also implicate higher up members of the organization.

It really sounds like the NFL was operating from the assumption that the Patriots, and Brady specifically, were guilty, which means that "You didn't produce evidence that would clearly show your guilt or admit you cheated" becomes "You didn't cooperate with our investigation and your statements were not credible."

  It sounds like what Brady did was provide the investigation with vast amounts of useless information in order to be able to claim that he provided them with vast amounts of relevant information.

He didn't provide useless information.  He provided a list of every person he called or texted and received with the date and time.  Sure, there were thousands of texts, but the vast majority were to his wife, family, and friends.  Every text to team employees including the the clown ball boys and coaches, including Belichick's, were already in possession by the league already.  Wells said he was only interested in those texts anyway, not personal texts.  So what exactly is the league complaining about?  They don't have his texts to Giselle, his Dad, Mark Wahlberg?  They said they were not interested in those.  And Brady was not required by any rule or law to provide those? So what is the league looking for?  Nothing, it's a red herring and anyone who doesn't see that is a sucker.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 07:46:15 PM by knuckleballer »

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1912 on: July 31, 2015, 09:32:20 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  You're saying that the league never said anything about Brady being uncooperative or less than forthright when they originally suspended him? That's not what I recall.


"With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence."



The NFL release cites as their authority for the punishment the "Integrity of the Game Policy" which is applied to teams, not to players, and is not a part of the CBA that governs the relationship between the league and the players.

There is no punishment under the CBA for "failure to cooperate fully and candidly."  Further, there's no precedent at all for punishing lack of cooperation with a suspension.  Favre got a fine.

  A fine is a punishment though, isn't it? You're claiming the nfl doesn't have the right to punish Brady for not cooperating with the investigation. Apparently they've been able to do so in the past. And from the few seconds I spent looking at the union's appeal, they seem to be complaining that the league suspended Brady when the only punishment for not cooperating in the past has been a fine.

Anyway, based on everything that has been released, it sounds like the alleged "failure to cooperate" is a fabrication, since Tom Brady actually did produce vast amounts of relevant electronic evidence.  He just didn't produce the evidence they were hoping to find that would clearly incriminate Brady and also implicate higher up members of the organization.

It really sounds like the NFL was operating from the assumption that the Patriots, and Brady specifically, were guilty, which means that "You didn't produce evidence that would clearly show your guilt or admit you cheated" becomes "You didn't cooperate with our investigation and your statements were not credible."

  It sounds like what Brady did was provide the investigation with vast amounts of useless information in order to be able to claim that he provided them with vast amounts of relevant information.

He didn't provide useless information.  He provided a list of every person he called or texted and received with the date and time.  Sure, there were thousands of texts, but the vast majority were to his wife, family, and friends.  Every text to team employees including the the clown ball boys and coaches, including Belichick's, were already in possession by the league already.  Wells said he was only interested in those texts anyway, not personal texts.  So what exactly is the league complaining about?

  You're saying that you know for a fact that the league is in possession of every text that Brady sent to anyone on the Pats? That none of the people who received the texts ever deleted a single one? If that's the case, why did they bother to ask for Brady's texts? Were they just looking for a way to bill more hours to the nfl?

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1913 on: July 31, 2015, 09:38:42 PM »

Offline Cman

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  You're saying that the league never said anything about Brady being uncooperative or less than forthright when they originally suspended him? That's not what I recall.


"With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence."



The NFL release cites as their authority for the punishment the "Integrity of the Game Policy" which is applied to teams, not to players, and is not a part of the CBA that governs the relationship between the league and the players.

There is no punishment under the CBA for "failure to cooperate fully and candidly."  Further, there's no precedent at all for punishing lack of cooperation with a suspension.  Favre got a fine.

  A fine is a punishment though, isn't it? You're claiming the nfl doesn't have the right to punish Brady for not cooperating with the investigation. Apparently they've been able to do so in the past. And from the few seconds I spent looking at the union's appeal, they seem to be complaining that the league suspended Brady when the only punishment for not cooperating in the past has been a fine.

Anyway, based on everything that has been released, it sounds like the alleged "failure to cooperate" is a fabrication, since Tom Brady actually did produce vast amounts of relevant electronic evidence.  He just didn't produce the evidence they were hoping to find that would clearly incriminate Brady and also implicate higher up members of the organization.

It really sounds like the NFL was operating from the assumption that the Patriots, and Brady specifically, were guilty, which means that "You didn't produce evidence that would clearly show your guilt or admit you cheated" becomes "You didn't cooperate with our investigation and your statements were not credible."

  It sounds like what Brady did was provide the investigation with vast amounts of useless information in order to be able to claim that he provided them with vast amounts of relevant information.

He didn't provide useless information.  He provided a list of every person he called or texted and received with the date and time.  Sure, there were thousands of texts, but the vast majority were to his wife, family, and friends.  Every text to team employees including the the clown ball boys and coaches, including Belichick's, were already in possession by the league already.  Wells said he was only interested in those texts anyway, not personal texts.  So what exactly is the league complaining about?

  You're saying that you know for a fact that the league is in possession of every text that Brady sent to anyone on the Pats? That none of the people who received the texts ever deleted a single one? If that's the case, why did they bother to ask for Brady's texts? Were they just looking for a way to bill more hours to the nfl?

Brady was fined for being *overly* cooperative??
????
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1914 on: July 31, 2015, 09:46:03 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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  You're saying that the league never said anything about Brady being uncooperative or less than forthright when they originally suspended him? That's not what I recall.


"With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence."



The NFL release cites as their authority for the punishment the "Integrity of the Game Policy" which is applied to teams, not to players, and is not a part of the CBA that governs the relationship between the league and the players.

There is no punishment under the CBA for "failure to cooperate fully and candidly."  Further, there's no precedent at all for punishing lack of cooperation with a suspension.  Favre got a fine.

  A fine is a punishment though, isn't it? You're claiming the nfl doesn't have the right to punish Brady for not cooperating with the investigation. Apparently they've been able to do so in the past. And from the few seconds I spent looking at the union's appeal, they seem to be complaining that the league suspended Brady when the only punishment for not cooperating in the past has been a fine.

Anyway, based on everything that has been released, it sounds like the alleged "failure to cooperate" is a fabrication, since Tom Brady actually did produce vast amounts of relevant electronic evidence.  He just didn't produce the evidence they were hoping to find that would clearly incriminate Brady and also implicate higher up members of the organization.

It really sounds like the NFL was operating from the assumption that the Patriots, and Brady specifically, were guilty, which means that "You didn't produce evidence that would clearly show your guilt or admit you cheated" becomes "You didn't cooperate with our investigation and your statements were not credible."

  It sounds like what Brady did was provide the investigation with vast amounts of useless information in order to be able to claim that he provided them with vast amounts of relevant information.

He didn't provide useless information.  He provided a list of every person he called or texted and received with the date and time.  Sure, there were thousands of texts, but the vast majority were to his wife, family, and friends.  Every text to team employees including the the clown ball boys and coaches, including Belichick's, were already in possession by the league already.  Wells said he was only interested in those texts anyway, not personal texts.  So what exactly is the league complaining about?

  You're saying that you know for a fact that the league is in possession of every text that Brady sent to anyone on the Pats? That none of the people who received the texts ever deleted a single one? If that's the case, why did they bother to ask for Brady's texts? Were they just looking for a way to bill more hours to the nfl?

It wasn't him picking and choosing what to send, he gave them records from the phone company.  Yee has stated as much.  Why has Goodell pushed this further?  Because it plays well to the non thinking masses.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1915 on: July 31, 2015, 10:26:06 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  You're saying that the league never said anything about Brady being uncooperative or less than forthright when they originally suspended him? That's not what I recall.


"With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence."



The NFL release cites as their authority for the punishment the "Integrity of the Game Policy" which is applied to teams, not to players, and is not a part of the CBA that governs the relationship between the league and the players.

There is no punishment under the CBA for "failure to cooperate fully and candidly."  Further, there's no precedent at all for punishing lack of cooperation with a suspension.  Favre got a fine.

  A fine is a punishment though, isn't it? You're claiming the nfl doesn't have the right to punish Brady for not cooperating with the investigation. Apparently they've been able to do so in the past. And from the few seconds I spent looking at the union's appeal, they seem to be complaining that the league suspended Brady when the only punishment for not cooperating in the past has been a fine.

Anyway, based on everything that has been released, it sounds like the alleged "failure to cooperate" is a fabrication, since Tom Brady actually did produce vast amounts of relevant electronic evidence.  He just didn't produce the evidence they were hoping to find that would clearly incriminate Brady and also implicate higher up members of the organization.

It really sounds like the NFL was operating from the assumption that the Patriots, and Brady specifically, were guilty, which means that "You didn't produce evidence that would clearly show your guilt or admit you cheated" becomes "You didn't cooperate with our investigation and your statements were not credible."

  It sounds like what Brady did was provide the investigation with vast amounts of useless information in order to be able to claim that he provided them with vast amounts of relevant information.

He didn't provide useless information.  He provided a list of every person he called or texted and received with the date and time.  Sure, there were thousands of texts, but the vast majority were to his wife, family, and friends.  Every text to team employees including the the clown ball boys and coaches, including Belichick's, were already in possession by the league already.  Wells said he was only interested in those texts anyway, not personal texts.  So what exactly is the league complaining about?

  You're saying that you know for a fact that the league is in possession of every text that Brady sent to anyone on the Pats? That none of the people who received the texts ever deleted a single one? If that's the case, why did they bother to ask for Brady's texts? Were they just looking for a way to bill more hours to the nfl?

It wasn't him picking and choosing what to send, he gave them records from the phone company.  Yee has stated as much.  Why has Goodell pushed this further?  Because it plays well to the non thinking masses.

  Yes, he picked and chose what to send, and what he chose to withhold was what he was asked to provide (the texts).

Attention circles back to Kensil as Deflategate source
« Reply #1916 on: August 01, 2015, 05:59:06 AM »

Offline colincb

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I'm shocked. Along with releasing the emails asking for the NFL to retract this story the NEP are letting the dirty laundry fly.

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/attention-circles-back-to-mike-kensil-as-deflategate-source

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1917 on: August 01, 2015, 08:57:25 AM »

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Do people still think Brady was innocent in this whole thing or that nothing ever happened?

The only thing that should be contested is the penalty being too harsh but Brady does deserve some kind of penalty.

I think he's innocent.  Do you think he conspired with a part time, minimum wage employee on a risky scheme to remove 3 to 4 tenths of a psi which is only possible if the ref forgot which gauge he used to measure over 50 footballs only a couple hours after measuring them?  Or do you believe a league which has been caught lying about the incident?
I don't believe that the ball boy refered to the other as the deflator because he was on a diet. I also don't believe the ball boy would take the footballs into the restroom without a high porobability of tampering with them. I also don't think the ball boys would be taking all these risks without some kind of direction from Brady. How would they even know that Brady preferred them at 11.5 unless told? And why would they deflate to 11.5 if they knew Brady had the footballs perfect unless they were told otherwise. I know I would never mess with the football that Brady had ready for the game. I wouldnt want to mess up the ball for him unless he said he really wanted them at 11.5.

Re: Attention circles back to Kensil as Deflategate source
« Reply #1918 on: August 01, 2015, 09:19:29 AM »

Offline knuckleballer

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I'm shocked. Along with releasing the emails asking for the NFL to retract this story the NEP are letting the dirty laundry fly.

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/attention-circles-back-to-mike-kensil-as-deflategate-source

For all the people who who think the Patriots cheated or at least did something wrong with the footballs, let's go back to the beginning of the story.

When they measured the footballs, they found that the average football dropped 1.01 psi using the gauge that the head ref said used to measure the footballs.  We know that it was 48 degrees outside and a reasonable assumption would be that they were measured in a room around 70.  Therefore, according the laws of science, the balls should have dropped around 1.1 psi give or take a bit.  Therefore, the balls were exactly in line with what science dictated.

So why was there an investigation?

This was before they learned McNally took a bathroom break, before Ted Wells and Exponent used convoluted logic to determine the ref was wrong about which gauge he used, before digging through the two clown ball boys' phones, before Exponent created transient curves that every independent scientist has since criticized, and before they asked for Brady's phone. 

The footballs dropped 1.01 psi which fit exactly with science, but the NFL lied and said the balls dropped 2 psi which science could not easily explain.  1.01 was expected.  If the league was truthful, this story would have died in a day.  So why did the NFL lie?  And why did they refuse to correct that lie?  Why did the NFL open up a $5 million investigation? 

Can someone explain that to me? 

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1919 on: August 01, 2015, 09:26:43 AM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Do people still think Brady was innocent in this whole thing or that nothing ever happened?

The only thing that should be contested is the penalty being too harsh but Brady does deserve some kind of penalty.

I think he's innocent.  Do you think he conspired with a part time, minimum wage employee on a risky scheme to remove 3 to 4 tenths of a psi which is only possible if the ref forgot which gauge he used to measure over 50 footballs only a couple hours after measuring them?  Or do you believe a league which has been caught lying about the incident?
I don't believe that the ball boy refered to the other as the deflator because he was on a diet. I also don't believe the ball boy would take the footballs into the restroom without a high porobability of tampering with them. I also don't think the ball boys would be taking all these risks without some kind of direction from Brady. How would they even know that Brady preferred them at 11.5 unless told? And why would they deflate to 11.5 if they knew Brady had the footballs perfect unless they were told otherwise. I know I would never mess with the football that Brady had ready for the game. I wouldnt want to mess up the ball for him unless he said he really wanted them at 11.5.

11.5?  There you go, you are wrong about that.  You have completely ignored the Ideal Gas Law.  It is impossible that they deflated them to 11.5.  At worst they were deflated to around 12.1 to 12.2 psi.  Of course that only happed if the ref was wrong about which gauge he used to measure over 50 footballs just a few hours before it turned into a huge issue.  Otherwise, no air was removed.

Did you also miss the text where Jastremski said the balls should have been 13 psi after the mid October Jets game?